Old Guard/Bad Eggs - POLL ADDED

[Bedfordspurs]

I'm not saying possession is the key - just that it is an important piece of the puzzle. Specifically, I think a) a team that is not comfortable or effective in possession is not going to score enough goals (i.e. being sometimes good on the counter because of two world class players is not enough), and b) a team that is making so many individual defensive mistakes cannot afford to have a gameplan based on conceding possession to the opposition.

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post.

Though the only other thing I would say is that I don't think we can assume for certain that Jose holds zero percent of the blame for our defensive mistakes. (Of course we also can't assume that he does - it's very hard to know, without seeing what goes on in training and the dressing room).

He has to take part to the blame
He picked the team and formation
I don’t think he can be blamed for Ben Davies weak attempt at defending but he did pick him.
I’ve never said he doesn’t have some accountability... but I really myself that these are player errors, unforced and basic. So basic it’s quite scary but the normal answer for many is it’s the tactics. We’re not under pressure a lot to the time when we concede the basic goals like we have done when we have lost. in the games we lose we were under less pressure than the ones we drew, when conceding.


maybe its me... I mean at arsenal when xhaka makes a mistake the fans kick off, as he is a repeat offender. They get ridiculed as the coach keeps on picking him
At Tottenham we blame the manager as fans hate him.

can’t wait for the presser tomo with some old head saying we know what we need to do. We will do it and work harder etc... same old, same old

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Genuine question

Seeing the quality of our defending as individuals, how to people tactically expect us to play a more expensive game, and remain solid at the back?

Even if we go back to a possession based system, what happens when we lose the ball?

I'm not defending Jose, but I can see why he plays so defensively, cause we can't defend whether the game is 0-0 or we're 3-0 up. It's a stretch to say players at downing tools because of his tactics as when we were playing attacking football we were still fudging up, and no team is gonna keep scoring goals like we were or players like Kane and Son were.

It's a bit disingenuous to label the problems now on the manager, but then say that previously under Poch it was the players/we needed a refresh etc when the majority of the same players are here, especially in defence

The only players I can look at recently and say they're putting it in (regardless of their quality) are Hojberg, Ndombele and Berwijn who essentially new players and Jose players.

That’s the issue I keep on repeating
Maybe attach is the best cause of defence
It got Poch the sack but hey... why wouldn’t it work now

 

[billyiddo]

Are we making more mistakes than other teams or are we just looking for excuses?

When you're winning games and playing well the defensive mistakes which lead to a goal don't get focussed on, they're still there - you wouldn't be conceding at all if defensively you never made mistakes. It's just when teams are struggling, and usually before a manager ends up getting sacked, mistakes leading to goals seem to be a regular occurrence and gain more attention because you aren't doing it the other end.

 

[fernadez]

Are we making more mistakes than other teams or are we just looking for excuses?

When you're winning games and playing well the defensive mistakes which lead to a goal don't get focussed on, yet when teams are struggling and usually before a manager ends up getting sacked mistakes leading to goals seem to be a regular occurrence

Brighton could have been 3 up before we had even completed 10 passes to each other.

 

[billyiddo]

Brighton could have been 3 up before we had even completed 10 passes to each other.

The players didn't turn up against Brighton, they weren't focused and looked like a team that were waiting for the final whistle.

Look at the other 20 odd games - if our defense is so bad and mistaken ridden why are there 18 teams who have conceded more than us?

We've scored 33% of our goals in 2 games - rest of of the season we have a pathetic goalscoring rate, that's where our problem is only it doesn't suit the throwing the players under the bus narrative cos you can't do that with Son and Kane...

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The players didn't turn up against Brighton, they weren't focused and looked like a team that were waiting for the final whistle.

Look at the other 20 odd games - if our defense is so bad and mistaken ridden why are there 18 teams who have conceded more than us?

We've scored 33% of our goals in 2 games - rest of of the season we have a pathetic goalscoring rate, that's where our problem is only it doesn't suit the throwing the players under the bus narrative cos you can't do that with Son and Kane...

But you build everything from the back don’t you
It’s why pool ain’t top, and city are
You need to get your defensive basics right to get the spring board for attacking
The best Poch sides knew how to defend. We knew the team before the game and it works like a machine an use the team knew the basics so well. yes it took 2 years to get there but what a team it was

being sad because we don’t have Kane is a woeful kick of player. The whole team has mentally made themselves rely on one man (that could be that is the only message Mourinho drills into them).

the team need to man up and play. Show some leadership and accountability. Lose fighting not wimpering. And do the basics right

 

[billyiddo]

But you build everything from the back don’t you
It’s why pool ain’t top, and city are
You need to get your defensive basics right to get the spring board for attacking
The best Poch sides knew how to defend. We knew the team before the game and it works like a machine an use the team knew the basics so well. yes it took 2 years to get there but what a team it was

being sad because we don’t have Kane is a woeful kick of player. The whole team has mentally made themselves rely on one man (that could be that is the only message Mourinho drills into them).

the team need to man up and play. Show some leadership and accountability. Lose fighting not wimpering. And do the basics right

My argument is the defence is fine, hence why our goals conceded is more or less on for top 4. We need to build on winning games because the less than 1.3 gpg that i spoke about earlier is not anywhere near where we need to be and that is a tactical problem

 

[fernadez]

The players didn't turn up against Brighton, they weren't focused and looked like a team that were waiting for the final whistle.

Look at the other 20 odd games - if our defense is so bad and mistaken ridden why are there 18 teams who have conceded more than us?

We've scored 33% of our goals in 2 games - rest of of the season we have a pathetic goalscoring rate, that's where our problem is only it doesn't suit the throwing the players under the bus narrative cos you can't do that with Son and Kane...

Because we play a low block and pack the defence so they can play as a unit instead of being isolated as individuals. We don't have a single defender who can defend 1 on 1.

Prime Poch we had prime Walker Toby Jan and Rose with Wanyama and Dembele in front of them. Our two back up full backs are now first choice, our back up DM is now first choice centre back, and two of our squad midfielders (Winks and Sissoko) are regular starters.

 

[billyiddo]

Because we play a low block and pack the defence so they can play as a unit instead of being isolated as individuals. We don't have a single defender who can defend 1 on 1.

Yet when we are level and looking for our goals and not playing a low block we mostly don't look like a team in danger of conceding - when we sit back, asides from the super low block against our peers, that is when we concede.

 

[LincsSpur]

Would have missed out on a Rabona, A fabregas stamp, and watching the most one footed player to have ever played football.

All true but don’t forget the ‘Wheelchair’ meltdown!
Funny

 

[LincsSpur]

Yet when we are level and looking for our goals and not playing a low block we mostly don't look like a team in danger of conceding - when we sit back, asides from the super low block against our peers, that is when we concede.

When we briefly pressed the Dippers we caused them problems but seemed to be too frightened to try it again

This one is on Jose the fear factor if they deviate even slightly from his set up

Reminds me of Santini a bit

 

[billyiddo]

Prime Poch we had prime Walker Toby Jan and Rose with Wanyama and Dembele in front of them. Our two back up full backs are now first choice, our back up DM is now first choice centre back, and two of our squad midfielders (Winks and Sissoko) are regular starters.

That's a top 2, title challenging team - doesn't really do much use to compare to that. Regardless I'm not seeing a defensive record that suggests anything out of the ordinary

 

[LincsSpur]

Maybe they have mate after given up on Jose
I do think we don’t have a leadership element on the pitch. Lots of quiet players (couldn’t hear any on tv)
As I’ve said a lot latterly the core of the side are still the ones that got Poch the sack and we know as fans how revered he was/is with us
So pass
I do know in work environments when I come in to help (I do business consultancy), you always get the following...
People who have been there two long and in there head know everything but haven’t had the “opportunities” they believe they deserved. Those people are toxic and drag everyone down
You also always get a few young, keen revolutionaries who are happy to do anything needed and will muck in on anything
Then you have a bunch of comfortable people plodding along happy with the pay cheque... we have a lot of those don’t we. Their career is going to get no greater than where they are at so will cling on for dear life

remember when Poch joined... we had all of these

I dont know if we do have them now. Can’t see the younger players offering out the senior players for a fight to defend the manager (Kane and mason did that with ade and Kaboul).

When was the last time that we had a real shouty captain figure in the side?

I’m not in favour of goalkeepers being captain either

For me it has to be a midfielder like Dave Mackay Bryan Robson Roy Keane etc who can carry the managers decisions to the pitch

 

[Yiddo]

If Mourinho is the one that is in charge of a overhaul then he will need a lot longer than people are willing to give him. We need to get rid of atleast 10 players which is not going to happen in 1 window.

If he is not the one then no point keeping him around.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

When was the last time that we had a real shouty captain figure in the side?

I’m not in favour of goalkeepers being captain either

For me it has to be a midfielder like Dave Mackay Bryan Robson Roy Keane etc who can carry the managers decisions to the pitch

I couldn’t hear a peep
Not even from Hojdjberg
It’s kinda freaky to what their players and none of your own when your being outplayed
Hart is toss but you know he is there

 

[parklane1]

Genuine question

Seeing the quality of our defending as individuals, how to people tactically expect us to play a more expensive game, and remain solid at the back?

Even if we go back to a possession based system, what happens when we lose the ball?

I'm not defending Jose, but I can see why he plays so defensively, cause we can't defend whether the game is 0-0 or we're 3-0 up. It's a stretch to say players at downing tools because of his tactics as when we were playing attacking football we were still fudging up, and no team is gonna keep scoring goals like we were or players like Kane and Son were.

It's a bit disingenuous to label the problems now on the manager, but then say that previously under Poch it was the players/we needed a refresh etc when the majority of the same players are here, especially in defence

The only players I can look at recently and say they're putting it in (regardless of their quality) are Hojberg, Ndombele and Berwijn who essentially new players and Jose players.

tickle my balls with a feather, i said elsewhere that there were 10 players on the field the other night that were here and part of the reason we struggled last year under Poch. The overall concenus from a lot of our fans is that those players were past their best/downed tools and it cost Poch his job. The number of mistakes some of these players have made this season just adds that point to the same problem.

I am not trying to defend Jose and i wanted Poch to be given more time ( and said just that on here at the time), but he has a hell of a job on his hands and until we cut loose a lot of those players OR try and get them to play without the mistakes then the moaning about managers being at fault ( totally) will still remain and we will get nowhere.

 

[parklane1]

When was the last time that we had a real shouty captain figure in the side?

I’m not in favour of goalkeepers being captain either

For me it has to be a midfielder like Dave Mackay Bryan Robson Roy Keane etc who can carry the managers decisions to the pitch

A keeper as captain is a bad move and Lloris can shout as much as he wants but it does not help overall. I agree it would be great if we could have a proper leader in the side and before anyone says Kane he is not a captain, great player yes but we need someone who will kick some arse when its needed and Kane is not that man.

 

[P.D.]

They allign because thos Burnley players are going to buy in fully to that system as they do not have the talent to play otherwise. Play any other way and they will just get relegated (they still might).

At Spurs we don't have to play the low block and counter that Jose is choosing to use. We might now be seeing the players turn away from a system that is not typical for players and clubs of our stature.

I'm personally not anti counter football but I do think Mourinho has implemented it incorrectly. Fergies Manchester United pretty much always played on the counter and their football was breathtaking, Jose's own Real Madrid were initially fantastic to watch and they lived for the transition. At Spurs though it has been too defensive, too reactionary and as I told you some weeks ago far too one dimensional which I think you can see now has lessened it's effectiveness.

You say the players don't want to play that way but under Poch they played the opposite and apparenly downed tools because they didn't like it anymore so makes you wonder how do they want to play or are they just divas who want the trophies without the effort associated with it.

 

[Finney Is Back]

But these tactics are exactly what beat pool for Burnley
We went top playing the defensive strategy
Now we can’t stop goals and can’t score either playing pretty much a 5 or 6 man defence
It’s double bubble
But .... the goals are really really weak goals to concede. They are very high XG goals as their ones you should score.
But because Jose is in charge of the tactics he gets the focus. He is paid £15m to come up with a solution.

Arghhhhhh.... do you actually read and take in replies Bedford?

 

[Finney Is Back]

Genuine question

Seeing the quality of our defending as individuals, how to people tactically expect us to play a more expensive game, and remain solid at the back?

Even if we go back to a possession based system, what happens when we lose the ball?

I'm not defending Jose, but I can see why he plays so defensively, cause we can't defend whether the game is 0-0 or we're 3-0 up. It's a stretch to say players at downing tools because of his tactics as when we were playing attacking football we were still fudging up, and no team is gonna keep scoring goals like we were or players like Kane and Son were.

It's a bit disingenuous to label the problems now on the manager, but then say that previously under Poch it was the players/we needed a refresh etc when the majority of the same players are here, especially in defence

The only players I can look at recently and say they're putting it in (regardless of their quality) are Hojberg, Ndombele and Berwijn who essentially new players and Jose players.

Mourinho has brought in 2 new full backs, a centre half and a keeper. He also gave new contracts to two existing centre halves.