Nuno Espírito Santo - Sacked

[DeanoAustin]

Thing is West Ham looked leggy to me. Most West Ham fans thought they themselves were poor on the day.

I would agree we do look more solid. No doubt about that. My concern is the transition to attack it’s poor. Slow and too many touches. I don’t see green shoots myself.

Would agree 100% with this. We do look more solid defensively and have the makings of a good unit with the back 5 and Skipp and Hojbjerg in front of them. But going forward we are laboured and toothless. The amount of times we got to a promising position around the halfway line and turned sideways or backwards was criminal. We have no idea what to do in those positions and are usually very ponderous. Wet Spam were fairly well drilled so, by allowing them a bit of breathing space with our indecision, they just got back into shape in a way Saudi Sportswashing Machine didn't or couldn't. We'll come up against much better sides than Wet Spam too so that's a worry.

I don't see it with Nuno. I think he'll be a failure here. But it's harsh to make that assessment after 9 games and it's difficult to stand over firing him now based on any sort of logic. Mine is a gut feel because I don't think it's possible to properly make a fair assessment after a few months. I'm pretty sure I'm right but the guy deserves more time to prove the likes of me wrong.

 

[Mcfee]

I don't see it with Nuno. I think he'll be a failure here. But it's harsh to make that assessment after 9 games and it's difficult to stand over firing him now based on any sort of logic. Mine is a gut feel because I don't think it's possible to properly make a fair assessment after a few months. I'm pretty sure I'm right but the guy deserves more time to prove the likes of me wrong.

Same here. Almost impossible to see him as anything but an interim coach. The 2 yr contract reinforces this.

 

[El Guepardo]

Can’t comment on Burkinshaw but the signs with Poch were that the players didn’t get his plan to start with and that was after a full pre season which Nuno hasn’t had
I mean we got spanked by city and pool, lost to Saudi Sportswashing Machine in a convincing defeat IIRC and also lost to West Brom who were both poor sides. That was in his first 10 games

The Saudi Sportswashing Machine defeat wasn’t convincing. We lost to a very late goal, having created more chances and been the more attacking side. It was Pardew fighting for his job at Saudi Sportswashing Machine and so, of course, we threw him a lifeline by gifting Saudi Sportswashing Machine 3 points.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The Saudi Sportswashing Machine defeat wasn’t convincing. We lost to a very late goal, having created more chances and been the more attacking side. It was Pardew fighting for his job at Saudi Sportswashing Machine and so, of course, we threw him a lifeline by gifting Saudi Sportswashing Machine 3 points.

Wasn’t that the game where sissoko ran us ragged?

 

[Gutter Boy]

As much as I do not have faith in Nuno, the main person to blame is the DoF for appointing him in the first place. There were definitely more attacking managers available in the summer.

Nuno learnt a lot of his managerial skills from Josr so I am not surprised with what he is delivering. He is conservative and risk adverse.

At least he does not throw his players under the bus and he is comes across as a thoroughly decent man.

Fonseca or another progressive manager would at least have got us back on the right direction of travel in terms of passing, possession, movement and energy.

I agree about the personality - I don't have any complaints at all about his conduct, which is a real contrast from Mourinho.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Fonseca or another progressive manager would at least have got us back on the right direction of travel in terms of passing, possession, movement and energy.

I agree about the personality - I don't have any complaints at all about his conduct, which is a real contrast from Mourinho.

But potentially getting spanked defensively
And IMO NO manager would make instant improvements with NO time with the players

 

[Gutter Boy]

But potentially getting spanked defensively
And IMO NO manager would make instant improvements with NO time with the players

But its also about having a higher line, with quick enough defenders (which we do have) and two more defensively able CMs (which we also have). We'd have bumps, but it's all about direction of travel back to being a team that contends again, rather than one that cowers.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

But potentially getting spanked defensively
And IMO NO manager would make instant improvements with NO time with the players

You mean, like getting thrashed 3-0 by Chelsea and Crystal Palace? Losing the NLD in miserable fashion?

I do agree with your other statement, although I think we looked much better offensively under Mourinho, until some of players decided they didn't want to play for him. Santo set the bar low with some of our early showings but, despite the improvement, I can't say I'm enjoying our performances, so far this season. Against Saudi Sportswashing Machine, I felt like every shot on target we had ended up in the back of the net (which is certainly not true, although I can't be bothered to check the stats). So, even when we're scoring, I'm still bored most of the time.

I have nothing against the guy. I don't watch his interviews but I'm sure he's a nice bloke. The only problem I have is that even Mourinho's Spurs gave me more thrills (and that's saying something). I'd be surprised if he could (or would) turn things around in such a way that we looked like Keegan's Saudi Sportswashing Machine by the end of the season but since he's not going anywhere in the near future, I guess there's no point in shooting him down.

On the plus side, the Premier League table's looking good, considering I thought we'd be struggling against relegation, a few weeks back. So there's always that.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

But its also about having a higher line, with quick enough defenders (which we do have) and two more defensively able CMs (which we also have). We'd have bumps, but it's all about direction of travel back to being a team that contends again, rather than one that cowers.

But we’re having bumps now and people are complaining
We’re playing with more possession and people are complaining
Cowers…. Interesting choice or words. Arsenal away was exactly that and so similar to every game we have played there since we actually won there all those years ago (after a cowering first half)
Chelsea … we’ll at the time they were the best side in Europe and we got done by squad depth and tactical changes available to them due to that depth
Palace.. red card killed the game but it wasn’t vintage from us at all. We wouldn’t have lost that though with 10 men IMO
The previous 3 we won deservedly (the only game we had an xG below the team we beat was city but we 100% deserved the win)
And the recent 3 have been 2 very good wins and a game that IMO should have been a draw but lost because of a set piece. No cowering there from what I can see

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You mean, like getting thrashed 3-0 by Chelsea and Crystal Palace? Losing the NLD in miserable fashion?

I do agree with your other statement, although I think we looked much better offensively under Mourinho, until some of players decided they didn't want to play for him. Santo set the bar low with some of our early showings but, despite the improvement, I can't say I'm enjoying our performances, so far this season. Against Saudi Sportswashing Machine, I felt like every shot on target we had ended up in the back of the net (which is certainly not true, although I can't be bothered to check the stats). So, even when we're scoring, I'm still bored most of the time.

I have nothing against the guy. I don't watch his interviews but I'm sure he's a nice bloke. The only problem I have is that even Mourinho's Spurs gave me more thrills (and that's saying something). I'd be surprised if he could (or would) turn things around in such a way that we looked like Keegan's Saudi Sportswashing Machine by the end of the season but since he's not going anywhere in the near future, I guess there's no point in shooting him down.

On the plus side, the Premier League table's looking good, considering I thought we'd be struggling against relegation, a few weeks back. So there's always that.

I’ve seen us lose much worse vs Chelsea. I’ve seen us play as bad at Arsenal (last season was very similar without the players going missing in midfield, instead they went missing wide)
Palace was a shocking result but had so many factors as to why which we all know.
We haven’t had the easier fixtures yet other than Saudi Sportswashing Machine. 4 London derbies in 9 games (3 away) is a slog. We’re actually up or like for like with last seasons results which says a lot as the league is more concentrated
Were at about 50% of where I believe the manager would want us to be but we’re 9 games in. Nuno is a stop gap here but he is also trying to fix big issues it seems to me

 

[Gutter Boy]

We only had 40% odd possession in both the Wolves and Watford games. The Wolves game was particularly cowering.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We only had 40% odd possession in both the Wolves and Watford games. The Wolves game was particularly cowering.

care to explain why?
I mean we took the lead, had the better chances and the closest they came to scoring was Traores chance?

Watford didn’t threaten after the first 15 minutes

so are we back judging possession as key ? I mean it’s literally what people were complaining about at the weekend, blunt possession. It’s back to people not being happy with Nuno and creating a story about what is wrong because he isn’t the manager they want.

and we had 58% of the ball vs watford by the way so the opposite of what you said

 

[Gazza]

I think those that don't rate Nuno don't think of him as a manager capable of doing what we want, playing good football, winning games, having some style and substance, and pushing the team forward ... couldn't say that he would be a manager of the likes of Liverpool, Chelsea, United, City, Arsenal, Leicester etc .. but could be a manager at West Ham, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Brighton, Palace ...

We were very very lucky in getting Pochettino, his Southampton team were really starting to turn the corner in a big way despite losing key players ... Nuno at wolves were very meh. His credentials as a manager were not anything close to Pochettino at Espanyol or at Southampton. Had we got in Potter I think we would have allowed him some more grace and freedom as he was good in Sweden (i know a minnow league but still did wonders with the limited resources that he had) and has got Brighton punching well above their weight.

Just out of interest what do you like anout Nuno and what makes him the right fit for this team and the supposed ambitions of Levy and Co?

 

[Benny_Lad]

Been thinking. We are 6th. We have played 2 of the best 3 teams in the league at home and already travelled to 2 difficult rivals.

We are above Man U, Everton, Arsenal, Leicester.

Given the lack of investment in attacking areas and the complete shambles of the Kane situation (ongoing with performances) is it fair to say that most would have taken 6th at this point at the start of the season?

Therefore - is it solely down to the playing style and complete lack of attacking direction that people are calling for a change?

Further question then. If we employ a manager with an attacking philosophy, but a squad that doesn’t really have the players to implement just now - will we as supporters be happy if we slip to 10th whilst trying to implement a much better attacking plan?

 

[Mr Gogolak]

I’ve seen us lose much worse vs Chelsea. I’ve seen us play as bad at Arsenal (last season was very similar without the players going missing in midfield, instead they went missing wide)
Palace was a shocking result but had so many factors as to why which we all know.
We haven’t had the easier fixtures yet other than Saudi Sportswashing Machine. 4 London derbies in 9 games (3 away) is a slog. We’re actually up or like for like with last seasons results which says a lot as the league is more concentrated
Were at about 50% of where I believe the manager would want us to be but we’re 9 games in. Nuno is a stop gap here but he is also trying to fix big issues it seems to me

Sure, we've had worse in the past but I read your post as 'with a more progressive manager, we would have been spanked defensively'. Well, with Santo, we've been spanked defensively without being particularly attractive to watch so I'd say, so far, we've had the worst of two worlds. You're absolutely right when you say we've had a tough schedule but, even against lesser teams, we've been fairly boring. I'm not being provocative when I say that I had more fun watching Mourinho's side at the same stage last season (acknowledging, of course, he'd been there for almost ten months at that point).

So we're left with the hope that he will 'turn it around'. It's possible but by no means certain. Even if he does, he's not going to turn into Johan Cruyff mkII. Also, I'm glad he's trying to fix issues but you could say the same about Mourinho: he inherited a poorly balanced squad and he tried to sort that. On the other hand, it could be argued that he created as many problems as he solved.

As for @Benny_Lad's, I would in a heartbeat if it gave me the feeling we were going forward as a club but I know I'm in the minority.

 

[afsoc4life]

Fans are an interesting bunch. I wonder what Levy thinks about the situation. Would he hold his mind till January 2022? Or the end of the season?

As 'bad' as things are - we are in 6th, two national cups, and 'in Europe'.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Sure, we've had worse in the past but I read your post as 'with a more progressive manager, we would have been spanked defensively'. Well, with Santo, we've been spanked defensively without being particularly attractive to watch so I'd say, so far, we've had the worst of two worlds. You're absolutely right when you say we've had a tough schedule but, even against lesser teams, we've been fairly boring. I'm not being provocative when I say that I had more fun watching Mourinho's side at the same stage last season (acknowledging, of course, he'd been there for almost ten months at that point).

So we're left with the hope that he will 'turn it around'. It's possible but by no means certain. Even if he does, he's not going to turn into Johan Cruyff mkII. Also, I'm glad he's trying to fix issues but you could say the same about Mourinho: he inherited a poorly balanced squad and he tried to sort that. On the other hand, it could be argued that he created as many problems as he solved.

As for @Benny_Lad's, I would in a heartbeat if it gave me the feeling we were going forward as a club but I know I'm in the minority.

Progressive is a misleading term IMO
I was the guy on here pushing potter to much derision. He is a progressive coach and a brilliant one IMO
But when gutter boy suggests a coach who didn’t seem to know we needed a massive defensive focus like fonseca (who im a fan of but clearly he hadn’t watch us play) then I have to interject.
We need someone to fix the issues and that starts from the back. We couldn’t defend for half a season. We look much better now on that front (the defence wasn’t the issue vs Chelsea or arsenal - it was the midfield not doing their job). The midfield now has a key player back in it, in skipp
He can now build from that which he has started with the change in formation. He needs to change a Player and see the impact, then try it again until he finds his team

 

[Legohamster]

Progressive is a misleading term IMO
I was the guy on here pushing potter to much derision. He is a progressive coach and a brilliant one IMO
But when gutter boy suggests a coach who didn’t seem to know we needed a massive defensive focus like fonseca (who im a fan of but clearly he hadn’t watch us play) then I have to interject.
We need someone to fix the issues and that starts from the back. We couldn’t defend for half a season. We look much better now on that front (the defence wasn’t the issue vs Chelsea or arsenal - it was the midfield not doing their job). The midfield now has a key player back in it, in skipp
He can now build from that which he has started with the change in formation. He needs to change a Player and see the impact, then try it again until he finds his team

I am not sure where the creative players to be that much better are, I would agree having the lowest shots in the PL minus Norwich is way below where we should be - but where is our creativity going to come from? we have average players accross the board.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I am not sure where the creative players to be that much better are, I would agree having the lowest shots in the PL minus Norwich is way below where we should be - but where is our creativity going to come from? we have average players accross the board.

As I said the other day, shots taken means very little if you don’t score or hit the target
We’re 7th on shots on target which is a metric which highlights some elements of quality… any team can take shots
But I agree we need more creativity and we have had it for 2 games before we played a well organdie slow block (first time this season but an Achilles heel for years)
You then have to say do you need two DMs? I’d argue against anyone that wants to sit back you can sacrifice one and play Lo Celso at 10 (not in a midfield 3) and Tanguy in CM. If the full backs push up more like they have in the 4-2-3-1 formation we should have more width
We then would need to fix RW which is an issue
You could also play Lo Celso there and Tanguy in 10 but I’m not a fan of him playing RW
Hopefully Moura appalling game was a one off as they happen.

West Ham’s creativity is set pieces. It got them above us in the league…. Their most creative player is their left back

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I am not sure where the creative players to be that much better are, I would agree having the lowest shots in the PL minus Norwich is way below where we should be - but where is our creativity going to come from? we have average players accross the board.

If you think Ndombele Lo Celso Moura Bergwijn Gil Kane are average creatively, I don't know where to start.

And what are you saying? 'we start again' ?