Mos Eisley has always had ridiculous fans. They said the same about Hoddle and Richards too.
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Next Spurs Manager v.2
- Thread starter Gutter Boy
- Start date
Mos Eisley has always had ridiculous fans. They said the same about Hoddle and Richards too.
DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
Brain, I know you agree with me about Benitez: likewise, I am fairly certain that you have already previously informed me of your opinion on both his actual placing within the list of managerial achievers and the need for our club to adopt a future-centric strategy that prioritises a style of play being adopted that lasts beyond individual managers' tenures. You have made both points expertly well, and with erudition and wit.
Now, the point I would like to put up for consideration is this: how important is Baldini's opinion of the style of play needed for our club? Or, for that matter, how important is Levy's? If Pochettino, FdB or Martinez bring their possession-based, high intensity styles to Spurs and make us aesthetically pleasing but never take us above fifth, would that be considered 'success' worth sticking with this particular style of play for? Alternatively, if Benitez comes in and wins a trophy or takes us into the top four immediately, should we not logically then be looking to implement the 'Benitez style of play' across our teams, rather than the model FdB, Martinez and Pochettino advocate?
Essentially, if we succeed under Benitez (more likely than any of the other candidates, given his track record), why can we not accept that his brand of football is the one we should be looking to adopt, not the FdB/Poch/RM model? We win with a particular style, and then seek to adopt it for future successes: surely that is more logical than seeking to adopt a particular style seemingly on a whim (or, at the very least, with less weight behind it than the weight behind Benitez' brand of counter-attacking solidity) and then expecting it to generate successes?
To hammer home the point, what determines which style is 'right' for us? Winning with a style and then adopting it, or watching other people do well with it and then importing it into our own club and wanting it to replicate exactly the same successes here?
I would suggest Benitez embodies the former: our chances of winning trophies or securing the top four are greatest under him, and if we succeed under him it will determine the course of future style-based evolution of our club's playing philosophy. Thus, it is far more sensible than choosing the other candidates because they could possibly win with their styles which we deem to be a continuation of the nebulous 'play pretty' philosophy we have been trying to implement (without any success to show for it) for the better part of the last twenty-odd years, exceptions like Graham and Jol (to an extent) excluded.
Win first, then set down the style you want. Do not set down the style you want and then seek to win: that is less certain, and more troublesome.
If Arsenal win the FA Cup this weekend, I wonder how many people on this board would still be willing to turn down a good chance for trophies in order to pursue their puritanical 'play pretty, winning be damned' version of what they think Spurs should resemble. And I wonder if Bill Nick would approve of us twisting his 'It is better to fail aiming high' quote to mean what we presently think it means. Bill Nick intended for us to aim for European Cups, league titles, world club championships, the lot: by doing so he probably assumed that at the very least we would fall amongst the FA Cups and League Cups we are supposedly masters at attaining, due to the ambition we would have shown gunning for the big prizes. I very, very much doubt he meant 'abandon realistic chances of winning to pursue the refined, completely perfect embodiment of pretty, aesthetically pleasing, ultimate 'winning' football: indeed, if someone had suggested the possibility to him I doubt very much he would have taken it kindly.
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DubaiSpur
Ian Walker
90291Spur
Paul Walsh
I get the same problem with braineclipse. Danke Schon.
Just don't give him THE clap and it's all good.
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
Really, only 27%? I can't see the poll on my phone, but every other post seems to be saying they'd be happy with Benitez.
It's not my list and I said the same, I wouldn't want any of the alternative list either. I just made the point that you could make a very valid case that those 3 were just as good as the 3 current favorites, even though I don't want them.
Cochise
Steve Carr
http://theboyhotspur.com/official-contact-to-be-confirmed-this-weekend/
So in amongst all the certainties regarding Poch joining us, a single ITK has piped up that FDB will in fact be the man that gets the job.
So in amongst all the certainties regarding Poch joining us, a single ITK has piped up that FDB will in fact be the man that gets the job.
Rob
Peter Taylor
My argument for Benitez is this. Out of ALL of those managers listed above, which one has won the Champions League full stop, let alone with two clubs who currently play in the Top Four of the EPL?
(Edit: the managers you list I mean, obviously the vote list has ancelotti too.)
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Ill answer if I may...
Simply put, we wouldn't want that because this club has an identity and history of style and entertainment which is admired by everybody (even Arsenal fans)
Simply put, we don't want that to be lost.
Nobody is saying we would rather play well and finish 5th every year as opposed to the Benitez way and finishing 4th and with the odd cup.
We are saying we want to play well AND win things.
The search for that man continues...
ringo
Tim Sherwood
FDB's style of football seems more in keeping with the way I'd like the team to play. Eriksen has been one of our best players this season. Playing under FDB didn't seem to do him any harm. Or Vertonghen - a great defender at CB when he wants to be.
I worry that Poch will end up as AVB MkII.
I worry that Poch will end up as AVB MkII.
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chicken_badge
Gudni Bergsson
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Thanks for the kind words first of all. Put some numbers in just to keep my post tidy.
1. That's a lot of if. No can argue with that hypothetical, but in the game of limited information that is football manager appointments I don't see much of an argument in it. Change the outcome between Poch and Benitez for example and the hypothetical becomes an argument for Poch?
2. What's in the parenthesis is what supports your hypothetical argument I suppose. "We're more likely to succeed with him." I have agreed in the past that he's probably the lowest risk appointment, I don't think there's much chance of a proper implosion with him. But at the same time I'm not sure the chance of success is all that much higher than for Poch and FdB. I get that CL success is huge, but it's still a cup competition, and never mind the variance in the final, they were one Gerrard last minute wonder goal away from having a failed CL campaign that season. A ton of variance involved. Benitez did also fail to win the league with a spine of Mascherano, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres. In my mind what should be thought of as one of the strongest midfield/forward combos in PL history, but because they didn't win it, it's not.
You talk about his success and trophies. But no titles after 2006 with Liverpool and slipping out of the CL spots with them before getting sacked. The complete failure at Inter, another cup win with what remains a very good Chelsea side and now he has Napoli performing more or less to expectation. I'm not saying he's not good, but I'm not sure he's exceptional.
3. It's not just about playing pretty. Not for me, and I'm 100% sure it's not for Levy.
I've always felt that there's a glass ceiling of sorts to the counter attacking strategy. Sooner or later teams won't let you do that, they will sit back, you have to control games yourself and you have to create against organized teams. Now, as the league is becoming more polarized and wins against bottom half teams are becoming more required I think this is more true than ever. I don't know where that glass ceiling would be for us with Benitez, would it be 5th? 4th? Quality CL runs? 1st? I honestly don't know, but I don't feel as confident as you that it's going to be successful over time. As I said, I think the risk of proper failure is small, but I do think that we might level out at "top 4 challenger with good cup runs" under him.
His last league win was in 03/04. Yes it's impressive to win La Liga with Valencia, but this was a rather different time to the current La Liga situation. They won the league with 77 points, which would be enough for 4th this season. Real Madrid were not a power house, finishing 4th behind Valencia, Barcelona and Deportivo La Coruna. Rijkaard had just been appointed at Barcelona, a Barca side far from the juggernaut they later became. Again, massive achievement, but it's not like he overtook Real and Barca at their best (or arguably even second best).
4. I disagree. The style comes first, then the results. No one is arguing that if we get the success we want (however you define it) we should then change our style of play. But just like Swansea decided on a style of play and got their success later, just like Pep took Barca to their extreme style and got his success we should be looking for the best style of play for us, implement it, and then hopefully the success will come as a result. If we hire Benitez, that's the style we go with. Not after he succeeds, but when he's hired.
For me, the argument for Poch or FdB over Benitez stems from me thinking that attacking against well organized hard working teams is one of the most difficult things to do in football. If you can do that then counter attacking will come naturally if you want it I think. And I think Poch at least has shown himself capable of combining attacking play with fairly solid defensive displays at Southampton at least. I want to see us being brave when playing out from the back, not just because it's prettier, but because that's how you get better at it. And when you'll have to you'll be capable of it, and sooner or later you'll have to. On a lot of levels I like the somewhat naive attacking instincts of Rodgers and Klopp, not just because it's fun to watch, but because even if you fail one season at least you'll most likely come out the other end of that season as a better attacking team. And if you want to be a top team you'll have to get better at that, or hit that glass ceiling.
Edit: I bolded the world exceptional above, because for me that's what it would take for a manager like Benitez to be clearly preferred over the kind of style I would wish the club to move towards. The kind of style I think has the greatest chance of yielding long term results by the way, not just the best looking style. I think Mourinho is truly exceptional, for him I'd say **** it with the style and just get him, he's that good. To me Benitez is close, but not quite there, not quite "exceptional enough".
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braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Beware of mistaking a vocal minority for the majority, I know I often do that anyway.
You might be able to make a valid case, but I think I would be able to make a better case for the "current 3".
Gazza Dazzla
Chris Perry
Yep, I know it's probably not come across like it, playing devils advocate really, but I could live with any of the current 3 candidates. Fdb and poch are interesting but a risk for sure (I know everyone would be, but there's varying degrees of it), Benitez is more of a known quantity and we'd def be challenging for top 4 with him and maybe a cup run, but I worry that he could be another divisive character, he does like to make the odd strange decision and his love affair with Liverpool would get right on our tits I think.
In terms of uniting the fans I think everyone would get behind FDB from the off, whether that makes him the best choice is another matter but it's one aspect of it.
Superted
Jonathan Woodgate
I'm subscribing to the theory that the Poch rumors are a smokescreen for FDB after he let the cat out of the bag before.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Out of curiosity what is it that's fueling these Poch to AVB comparisons?
AVB's Porto had an attacking reputation, yes they were undefeated and obviously solid at the back. But they also outscored Benfica by over 10 goals and every other team in the league by close to 30 goals or more. With 73 goals in a league of 16 teams they scored more than Ajax did this season in a league with 18 teams. Probably the difference in quality between Porto and the rest of that league is bigger than the difference in quality between Ajax and the rest of the Eresdivisie, but it's not like AVB came to England with the reputation of playing primarily defensive football. It's not like he set up his Chelsea side to just sit back and soak up pressure, he was the one with the high line stuff, remember?
His problem was trying to implement his ideas that worked so brilliantly at the biggest club in Portugal with the best players, a strategy that also seems to work really well at Zenit with a very good crop of players, when at a team that's not the best in a tougher league. Particularly so when we lost our one remaining superstar.
Why isn't the comparison drawn to FdB instead? Like AVB he has only managed the biggest and best club in a smaller league. For the vast majority of his games he will have had the best players, in a less competitive league, and with the most financial power in the transfer market.
Poch on the other hand has managed both at Espanyol and at Southampton to implement his ideas into teams that haven't been the best teams in those league, in probably the two most competitive leagues around, one of them being the same league we're in. Doing so at Espanyol with very limited resources, and doing so at Southampton under fairly tough circumstances as he came in replacing the popular Adkins and not even speaking the language at first.
sc25
Banned
Braineclipse, well said. I'd be ok with Poch, but I certainly don't see him as you do. Give him a year or two and see what happens, that's fine I guess.
So, if we sack Poch in 18 months time (which wouldn't shock me at all), would it be fair to say that you'd then want someone similar to him again? Or, could you perhaps envisage a time down the road when someone like Rafa or someone of his 'style' may come more in to focus for you?
AVB? He wasn't able to implement his system? So we shouldn't have hired, shouldn't have fired, we treaded water maybe.
'Style' is subjective. What might be stylish to me, may not be to others, and vice versa. What may have seemed stylish to me 40 years ago may seem less so now, or at least less important. Style at 10, 20, 30, 40, 70 years of age is variable.
A cup is a cup. Top 4 is Top 4. A title is a title. UEFA Cup photos in here. You seen them. Its a tangible thing, not an opinion. As we all know, the game has changed so much, and there's so much more money and pressure now. And in order to win things, it has brought style and its importance in to question in boardrooms everywhere. If you the boss, you report to the brass...you say we didn't win anything, but we did it pretty...and they look at you...and they try to appreciate your 'history' and take it on board. At best, at this stage we are playing for 4th. Look at the money. 5th or 6th is reasonable, and we can achieve that (apparently) with a clueless idiot. Lets see what Poch does.
As far as Napoli and Rafa just 'living up to expectations', not sure that Napoli have always been a perennial top3 team in La Liga? Even if they have, the point is that he is doing it. Not sure what emphasis they place on style, but they are winning trophies.
As you say, we have been trying to do it 'pretty' for a very long time now. At this point, not sure if that's good or bad anymore, but yes we have a history of it. Maybe other teams respect us for it, not sure to what extent. But, I also think a case could be made that at times they haven't really feared us for it and are quite happy for us to search and continue that way? Leeds and Arsenal were just fine with it back in the day.
By the way, Arsenal have done it both ways. Long before Wenger, they were winning 'ugly' too. They almost invented the offside trap, with their back 4 of the Hendon police cadets, and so on. I imagine the trophies in their cabinet all look pretty much about the same now, though.
So, if we sack Poch in 18 months time (which wouldn't shock me at all), would it be fair to say that you'd then want someone similar to him again? Or, could you perhaps envisage a time down the road when someone like Rafa or someone of his 'style' may come more in to focus for you?
AVB? He wasn't able to implement his system? So we shouldn't have hired, shouldn't have fired, we treaded water maybe.
'Style' is subjective. What might be stylish to me, may not be to others, and vice versa. What may have seemed stylish to me 40 years ago may seem less so now, or at least less important. Style at 10, 20, 30, 40, 70 years of age is variable.
A cup is a cup. Top 4 is Top 4. A title is a title. UEFA Cup photos in here. You seen them. Its a tangible thing, not an opinion. As we all know, the game has changed so much, and there's so much more money and pressure now. And in order to win things, it has brought style and its importance in to question in boardrooms everywhere. If you the boss, you report to the brass...you say we didn't win anything, but we did it pretty...and they look at you...and they try to appreciate your 'history' and take it on board. At best, at this stage we are playing for 4th. Look at the money. 5th or 6th is reasonable, and we can achieve that (apparently) with a clueless idiot. Lets see what Poch does.
As far as Napoli and Rafa just 'living up to expectations', not sure that Napoli have always been a perennial top3 team in La Liga? Even if they have, the point is that he is doing it. Not sure what emphasis they place on style, but they are winning trophies.
As you say, we have been trying to do it 'pretty' for a very long time now. At this point, not sure if that's good or bad anymore, but yes we have a history of it. Maybe other teams respect us for it, not sure to what extent. But, I also think a case could be made that at times they haven't really feared us for it and are quite happy for us to search and continue that way? Leeds and Arsenal were just fine with it back in the day.
By the way, Arsenal have done it both ways. Long before Wenger, they were winning 'ugly' too. They almost invented the offside trap, with their back 4 of the Hendon police cadets, and so on. I imagine the trophies in their cabinet all look pretty much about the same now, though.
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