Next Spurs Manager v.2

[he_is_you_know]

In 1996-2000, the top 4 places were more openly contested, there were no teams of real force, barring Manchester United, and Saudi Sportswashing Machine who were fighting up there due to the investment in the club. As such, a top 4 place whilst admirable was perhaps 'easier' to achieve than it is now.

With two cash rich clubs, in addition to established teams who regularly finish in the top 4, then it's harder to break in to that part of the table.

Also, finishing fourth back then is similar to finishing sixth today in terms of European qualification. 1996/97 was the first time the Champions League became a misnomer with the top two qualifying, with it becoming three in 2000/01 and then four the season afterwards.

 

[Baleforce]

And the idea of whether we would want big investment in to the club would open up a can of worms so we'll not discuss that in this thread.

if it is solely money, what choice do we have?

 

[milo]

Also, finishing fourth back then is similar to finishing sixth today in terms of European qualification. 1996/97 was the first time the Champions League became a misnomer with the top two qualifying, with it becoming three in 2000/01 and then four the season afterwards.

That's a different point to the one that Shaney was making which was whether a club in the Premier League era with top four aspirations had appointed a novice. The answer is yes, Chelsea did twice and finished inside the top four under those managers.

It is also very common in other major European leagues.

 

[he_is_you_know]

That's a different point to the one that Shaney was making which was whether a club in the Premier League era with top four aspirations had appointed a novice. The answer is yes, Chelsea did twice and finished inside the top four under those managers.

It is also very common in other major European leagues.

Fair enough, that was me equating my definition of top four to Champions League places rather than an actual top four finish, which as you say they did manage.

Edit: I'd also add David O'Leary at Leeds as a novice manager appointed for top four aspirations. Weird how all three have had pretty terrible managerial records - hired at big clubs in their 30s and pretty much retired within a decade.

 

[Baleforce]

I don't know about o'leary, and I might be mistaken about Gullitt, but iirc both he and Vialli are from very wealthy backgrounds, I figure they decided they just didn't want the hassle and enjoyed the media route more

my guess with o'leary is he was just **** and lived off the work of the Leeds youth system and GG's playbook

 

[milo]

my guess with o'leary is he was just **** and lived off the work of the Leeds youth system and GG's playbook

I think it was more Peter Ridsdale's chequebook than George Graham's playbook.

 

[Baleforce]

I think it was more Peter Ridsdale's chequebook than George Graham's playbook.

yeah, that was definitely a factor as his reign progressed

 

[veron23]

because sometimes you just hire somebody because they are good not on whats on their cv. if hes good hes good full stop. and TS has convinced at least levy and myself that hes got what it takes. if he can get us this many points so far with zero experience then im interested to see what he can do when hes had a year or 2 in the game.
unless we get mourinho then whoever we get will not take us beyond 4th maybe 3rd so I dont know what your expecting to happen if we got LVG, Klopp, klinsmann etc - we still wont break top 2.

 

[Cochise]

Firstly if we are to look at a model that we can adapt to to push up the league then it would be Liverpools. They have a top coach who within 6-9 months had a team playing his way and getting results. They have spent relatively little by comparison (yes they recycled the Torres cash), but are now top four material playing a tidy brand of football. No matter the personel or formation they still look like the same team, the fundamentals are the same, the passing movements etc. This in my opinion is what we need, but it means finding a damn good coach and sticking by them. Some may argue that AVB was that oppurtunity, but the guy had twice as long as Rodgers and the football was still nowhere near good enough for what a top four team should be aspiring to play. Be it TS or LVG they will need a minimum of two seasons for results to come good but I think we need improvements in the football first. AVB gave us results but not the football and set himself up for a fall when the results dropped off.

Secondly, people need to think about the players here and what they signed up for. I have no doubt that Vertonghen signed up to play for Harry in a team that contained Bale, VdV and Modric and was looking to be a regular challenger for the top four. Two years down the line this guy will be wanting to move on because his personal goals have not been met. It's likely the same story with a few of the players. They want to be challenging now and not giving a couple more years to a project having just done the same with AVB. How we deal with this summer is crucial. We make ourselves clear from the moment the WC ends, we name a coach and we do all the business straight away, both ins and outs. We make it clear to the players and fans what the season is about, progress in football not so much results, for the greater good of the club.

We can argue that TS is in his building phase and deserves the time to shape the team to what he wants, these next 14 games are his tinkering time and he should be judged by the performances not the results. The man really needs a pre season and another 6 months before we should be asking questions, but ultimately we aren't certain of his credentials and with that there is a risk. Rodgers built himself up an impressive reputation thanks to his Swansea team. People knew what he could do with the right amount of time and patience, no one knows a thing about Sherwood and that is why we are so twitchy. It's a massive gamble and the odds are stacked against it paying off.

 

[veron23]

Firstly if we are to look at a model that we can adapt to to push up the league then it would be Liverpools. They have a top coach who within 6-9 months had a team playing his way and getting results. They have spent relatively little by comparison (yes they recycled the Torres cash), but are now top four material playing a tidy brand of football. No matter the personel or formation they still look like the same team, the fundamentals are the same, the passing movements etc. This in my opinion is what we need, but it means finding a damn good coach and sticking by them. Some may argue that AVB was that oppurtunity, but the guy had twice as long as Rodgers and the football was still nowhere near good enough for what a top four team should be aspiring to play. Be it TS or LVG they will need a minimum of two seasons for results to come good but I think we need improvements in the football first. AVB gave us results but not the football and set himself up for a fall when the results dropped off.

Secondly, people need to think about the players here and what they signed up for. I have no doubt that Vertonghen signed up to play for Harry in a team that contained Bale, VdV and Modric and was looking to be a regular challenger for the top four. Two years down the line this guy will be wanting to move on because his personal goals have not been met. It's likely the same story with a few of the players. They want to be challenging now and not giving a couple more years to a project having just done the same with AVB. How we deal with this summer is crucial. We make ourselves clear from the moment the WC ends, we name a coach and we do all the business straight away, both ins and outs. We make it clear to the players and fans what the season is about, progress in football not so much results, for the greater good of the club.

We can argue that TS is in his building phase and deserves the time to shape the team to what he wants, these next 14 games are his tinkering time and he should be judged by the performances not the results. The man really needs a pre season and another 6 months before we should be asking questions, but ultimately we aren't certain of his credentials and with that there is a risk. Rodgers built himself up an impressive reputation thanks to his Swansea team. People knew what he could do with the right amount of time and patience, no one knows a thing about Sherwood and that is why we are so twitchy. It's a massive gamble and the odds are stacked against it paying off.

All valid points but
if brendan rodgers had soldado and spurs had suarez lets see if hed be held in the same regard.
yes he does have a brand of football yes they play the same regardless - both valid points, but lets not get carried away they have an elite player who does the things he does based on his ability not the because of the system he plays in.
but i get your point

 

[Gutter Boy]

Probably horrify some on here but IF Tim Sherwood proves to be temporary, I would be quite happy to have a British manager managing, someone who knows this league. Mark Hughes for instance. I wouldn't go for Pochettino because his test will be when Lallana etc have been poached and he has a worse squad to manage. If LVG gets a better offer, which current PL managers would you be happy to see manage at the Lane?

I would love an English manager. But they are currently all head in the sand dinosaurs.

I don’t mind Hodgson and Hughton, but it’s frightening that they are the best two around.

It’s no coincidence that no English manager has won a major honour since Howard Wilkinson in 1992 – 22 years ago!

Well I can't say I wouldn't be happy if that happened.

And the cycle would continue, Tactician, Motivator, Tactician, Motivator...

England is such a different culture for astute tactical managers to succeed. It still remains or gives the impression that it's an old boys club. Intellectualising anything to do with football seems to rub people up the wrong way.

I really hope LVG is a massive success if it happens. Hell I hope Sherwood is a huge success. We could analyse everything til we're blue in the face, but sometimes these players will only respond to 'just ****ing run around a bit'

I'm in favour of whatever works for us. But by the same token I want to be proud of the club, the vision we adopt, and the morals we live by. Probably asking too much

Remember 15 of our 24/25 players were brought in by a tactician coach. Defoe was the last of our brainless old-school players left at the club.

Redknapp was able to turn things back because there was enough of Jol’s squad left. But AVB has overhauled things too much for us to turnback again (without turning over 10 players again in the summer).

AVB also sifted out nearly all of the individuals. We’ve now got a squad that is incredibly ripe for a strong leader to come in and impose a vision on. We look so lost under Timmeh because our players need a game plan – they are system players not individuals.

I don't know what the plan is with Tim and I am happy for him to have the job and just crack on with it but I am not sure I want Louis van Gaal as manager for reasons mentioned above. It isn't too unlike the end issue with AVB in terms of not being flexible enough. He does appear to have rubbed people up the wrong way at different clubs and has absolutely no experience of this league and country although that isn't always a deal breaker.

Personally, I don't who is out there that we could get and who would want to come but I think I want someone who can attract players, seems to be easy going but able to maintain an authority, someone preferrably with prior knowledge of this league and country and someone who will want us to play with flair and style and understands our clubs values and traditions.

I keep thinking about who would fit that mould and the person I keep coming back with is Jurgen Klinsmann.

LVG is flexible. He reinvigorated total football in the 1990s with Ajax and built the foundations at Barca for Guardiola’s team, but had a steely powerful Bayern team. He won’t bow to other opinions, but he’s quite prepared to change his own thinking.

Also remember that none of the league title winners of the past 20 odd years had experience in this league prior to their appointments (Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho, Anchelotti, Mancini).

Klinsmann is a DoF, not a coach. He’s always had a tracksuit man underneath him out on the training pitch, while he overseas more structural matters.

 

[Rorschach]

I would love an English manager. But they are currently all head in the sand dinosaurs.

I don’t mind Hodgson and Hughton, but it’s frightening that they are the best two around.

It’s no coincidence that no English manager has won a major honour since Howard Wilkinson in 1992 – 22 years ago!




Remember 15 of our 24/25 players were brought in by a tactician coach. Defoe was the last of our brainless old-school players left at the club.

Redknapp was able to turn things back because there was enough of Jol’s squad left. But AVB has overhauled things too much for us to turnback again (without turning over 10 players again in the summer).

AVB also sifted out nearly all of the individuals. We’ve now got a squad that is incredibly ripe for a strong leader to come in and impose a vision on. We look so lost under Timmeh because our players need a game plan – they are system players not individuals.




LVG is flexible. He reinvigorated total football in the 1990s with Ajax and built the foundations at Barca for Guardiola’s team, but had a steely powerful Bayern team. He won’t bow to other opinions, but he’s quite prepared to change his own thinking.

Also remember that none of the league title winners of the past 20 odd years had experience in this league prior to their appointments (Ferguson, Wenger, Mourinho, Anchelotti, Mancini).

Klinsmann is a DoF, not a coach. He’s always had a tracksuit man underneath him out on the training pitch, while he overseas more structural matters.

It was Cryuff that built the foundations of the current Barca style really.

 

[DHSF]

All valid points but
if brendan rodgers had soldado and spurs had suarez lets see if hed be held in the same regard.
yes he does have a brand of football yes they play the same regardless - both valid points, but lets not get carried away they have an elite player who does the things he does based on his ability not the because of the system he plays in.
but i get your point

Sorry but thats a bit silly. If we had Messi etc blimey.

Should we all clone the players and see who is truly the best team? no.

 

[Gutter Boy]

It was Cryuff that built the foundations of the current Barca style really.

Bit of both. Cryuff was there for a long time (8 odd years) and did a lot of it. But van Gaal brought together the more immediate components for the team that Rijkaard and Guardiola went on to reap the rewards of. Don't forget Robson's spell was between the two too.

Cryuff and van Gaal have a strange relationship don't they. They are very similar and really admire each other professionally, but also can't stand each other. De Boer talks about this a lot as he is mentored by both of them.

 

[veron23]

Sorry but thats a bit silly. If we had Messi etc blimey.

Should we all clone the players and see who is truly the best team? no.

the point went over your head. i made a side note merley pointing out that liverpools success is not all down to their foundations, principles, brendan rodgers etc etc. they are a bit lucky to have stumbled on what turns out to be the worlds best striker
if you saw them today you would see their system and style isnt anything purposeful or unique, they only looked dangerous when suarez was on it and when he faded so did liverpool

 

[Lost Mango]

All valid points but
if brendan rodgers had soldado and spurs had suarez lets see if hed be held in the same regard.
yes he does have a brand of football yes they play the same regardless - both valid points, but lets not get carried away they have an elite player who does the things he does based on his ability not the because of the system he plays in.
but i get your point

Where would we be now if only Redknapp and/or his scouts had seen something different in Suarez!!?? (Or if Suarez's agent had only been Willie Mackay? ...there but for there grace of GHod, hey?

 

[veron23]

Bit of both. Cryuff was there for a long time (8 odd years) and did a lot of it. But van Gaal brought together the more immediate components for the team that Rijkaard and Guardiola went on to reap the rewards of. Don't forget Robson's spell was between the two too.

Cryuff and van Gaal have a strange relationship don't they. They are very similar and really admire each other professionally, but also can't stand each other. De Boer talks about this a lot as he is mentored by both of them.

FDB is the man I want if TS goes. Hes got a bit of Cruyff, LVG and Pep in him.

 

[milo]

It’s no coincidence that no English manager has won a major honour since Howard Wilkinson in 1992 – 22 years ago!

Not this again.

FA Cup - Joe Royle 1995, Harry Redknapp 2008
League Cup - Ron Atkinson 1994, Roy Evans 1995, Brian Little 1996, Steve McClaren 2004,

 

[Baleforce]

and Bobby Robsons success with Porto and Barcelona

 

[Gutter Boy]

Not this again.

FA Cup - Joe Royle 1995, Harry Redknapp 2008
League Cup - Ron Atkinson 1994, Roy Evans 1995, Brian Little 1996, Steve McClaren 2004,

I'll maybe give you the Joe Royle one, but the rest are too devalued as competitions now to count as 'major'. It's really got to be league or European.