New England manager = Roy Hodgson

[BrainOfLevy]

You don't need to convince me that Harry's gotten the results, I think despite my anti-Harry leaning I've never discredited his achievements on the scoreboard. My point being that they are being overstated by certain people, Harry included, by contrasting them to a Spurs which was apparantly a basket case that have "never had it so good" and "should" only be finishing mid table.

We were a good team, we were getting better.

Completely unprovable but I believe had we not had the Jol/Ramos debacle, Jol would have gotten us Champs League by now and we'd be a better team today.

We were a decent, mid table quality team when Harry arrived. We are perennial CL challengers after 3 and a half years of his management. The good work that Arnesen did was largely undone by Commoli, because Jol's squad was good and deserved to be up there. But we were then left without strikers, without much depth, and completely unbalanced. Harry rescued some of Commoli's signings (because they were good players, just in an unbalanced, average quality squad overall) and now we are where we are.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

The landscape of the league was MORE competitive. We had a vastly inferior squad to that which we have now. Chelsea had Mourinho in charge and the most expensively assembled squad in the league. Utd had their best squad in decades, as did Liverpool. Arsenal were a hell of a lot stronger than now. We were in a bunch with Villa and Everton competing to get ahead of each other. It was an incredibly competitive time for top 4 placings. And we finished 5th twice in a row - not a million miles away at all.



What exactly, in your opinion, has Harry done that is far and away superior to what you think any other "decent" manager would have done? What has he done that Jol didnt?

And Im not talking results - actual management - what has he done that has made you think "Wow, thats a level above what we have had before"?

Honestly, see my point about the competitiveness of the league above. It really was not more competitive. We were absolutely not in a struggle with Villa and Everton, certainly not the season where we almost got it. And Arsenal were not much stronger than they are now. I think you must be confusing time periods if you think that is the case.

In terms of Harry's management, the big thing for me is that he has taken players with talent and made them play to something like their full potential. Assou-Ekotto didn't have to turn into a top 4 quality left back. I don't think he was anywhere near top 4 quality under Jol. He could have easily left, gone to play for a mid-table team in France or even gone to somewhere like Fulham, made a nice living but completely stagnated. But he hasn't. Kaboul did not have to turn out to be a commanding centre back that looks solid and imposing and plays the ball out with the calmness of Ledley. His career could have gone into freefall after leaving for Portsmouth, he could have joined the list of centre backs with the physical attributes but without the brain to make it at the top level. Bale didn't have to become a winger talked about as a target for Barca. He could have easily failed to make the grade after showing initial promise. Walker didn't have to leap ahead of Naughton in his development and become our starting rightback, and PFA player of the year.

There are some players that haven't done well, like Gio and Bassong, but for the most part the players were playing to their potential. Even Bentley had a good run! But people say 'it was just young players getting better as they got older' as if that's a cast iron certainty that it's going to happen. It takes good management to make that happen. And when people talk about the quality of our squad, it's only because a lot of them have improved to that level under Harry's management. They certainly weren't top 4 quality when they arrived.

 

[Superted]

We were a decent, mid table quality team when Harry arrived. We are perennial CL challengers after 3 and a half years of his management. The good work that Arnesen did was largely undone by Commoli, because Jol's squad was good and deserved to be up there. But we were then left without strikers, without much depth, and completely unbalanced. Harry rescued some of Commoli's signings (because they were good players, just in an unbalanced, average quality squad overall) and now we are where we are.

Okay, I think we're arguing about the same thing, just perspective. In my eyes, under Jol we were at the bottom of the top 5 or 6. In your eyes, we were the best out of positions 5 though 10. Same, same, but different.

 

[chancer]

One thing that's always been great about Spurs is that we do things correctly whether it's failed us in the past or not. Having someone like Redknapp in charge (for what I perceive to be marginal extra success at best) makes us less of a great club and more like all the others who would sell their souls to win a match.

Rose tinted glasses.

Irving Scholar ran the club appallingly, both in business terms and in terms of behaving with dignity. All sorts of questionable dealings in those days and a boardroom that wouldn't last 5 minutes in the modern world of corporate governance and oversight. It was a grubby reign. Then we had Alan Sugar, who was hardly a by-word for classiness.

In terms of managers, Terry Venables was every bit as much of a dodgy geezer as Harry is. Moreso probably. The club treated Christian Gross contemptuously. It didn't do much better in how it treated Jol, Ramos, Santini or even David Pleat. The club also appointed George Graham, which must be one of the most absurd appointments in PL history, and hardly a glorious moment in terms of the motivations behind it.

There's plenty of evidence that Spurs do not always do things correctly at all.

 

[Superted]

And Arsenal were not much stronger than they are now. I think you must be confusing time periods if you think that is the case.

They made the final of the Champions League the season where we almost pipped them. They weren't invincible like, but they were still bloody good.

 

[mudshark]

This is the argument that's done the rounds for years. We've had several Managers, several scouts, DoF's all apparently failing to identify transfer targets. They come and go, the problem remains the same.

I certainly think it's arguable that Levy has been quite happy to allow Redknapp's reputation for buying declining players on the cheap to precede him, while the final handshake is his own every time.

That's down to the pecuniary realities, thoughÔÇöpersonally, I think anyone who believes the official line that the stadium project won't have any impact on player trading will probably believe anythingÔÇöbut that's all the more reason we need someone in place who can get the optimum performance out of the squad season long, and at the business end in particular. Is Redknapp that person? The boom and bust of the past two terms sort of suggests otherwise in my view.

At the end of the day, he'll either be here next season or he won't, and nothing that's said on here is likely to have much bearing on that. If he goes, I probably won't be among those bitterly lamenting his departure; if not, he and his teams will get my full support from my usual pew.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Okay, I think we're arguing about the same thing, just perspective. In my eyes, under Jol we were at the bottom of the top 5 or 6. In your eyes, we were the best out of positions 5 though 10. Same, same, but different.

Fair play mate. I actually think in 05/06, when we almost got 4th, we were bottom of the top 5. We were well in there, and deservedly so. However the next season, we were just best of the rest. If we finish 6th this season, we will be bottom of the top 6, rather than best of the rest I would say.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Why would you not want to look at results? That's what every manager is judged on surely.....

It occurs to me that Harrys supporters are so staunchly in his camp I would like to know why. What is it about his management that deserves such defence? The most common response seems to be "Because we were brick before and we arent now", which is pretty weak IMO.

Results can be attributed to things out of a managers control (particularly when trying to compare managers of different eras to each other). For example, Utd, City, Arsenal and Chelsea all get deducted 50 points for match rigging - that leaves us top and champions - but doesnt prove Redknapp to be the best manager does it?

So, aside from the top 4 finishes (which some have argued have factors such as a much better playing squad and weaker competition for places upon it) what is it people have seen in Redknapps management to warrant such support?

Honestly, I havent seen much that I wouldnt expect from any decent manager. Certainly nothing outstanding.

And thanks to Harry we are operating at a very high level, which means we are in a place where management can make a significant impact - impacts I think we are lacking from Redknapp - which could take us up a level.

 

[ArnieArdiles]

Maybe not, but that's because maybe his aura around the players can't be recovered. If it wasn't for this speculation, I'd say yes, absolutely, why not. But because of the players apparently being affected, it may be best to start again with a new voice.

Doesn't reflect badly on Harry's management ability, that's just the circumstances we find ourselves in. Personally I'd rather not take the risk, but that's just my opinion.

Debating on football in terms of whether this manager is good or bad or by insinuating there is a 100% right choice in a game as complex and with as many variables as football is pointless though. Pundits are lining up to criticise SAF for fielding a conservative team against City, even though he usually does it for big games and usually with great success. And you can beat if he 'went for is' and lost 3-0 those same people would be saying he played them too open and should have been more patient in such a big game since they only really needed a draw. It's pointless. They scored a goal from a corner, it didn't happen because of the way they lined up. They may have ended up winning that game 2-0 with that system, they may have lost by more. But it wasn't just because of that system that we lost.

And neither was the decision to loan out Corluka/Bassong/Pienaar/sell Pav the reason we had some bad form. They might have contributed, but really it probably has a lot to do with a million other things too. People saying our fitness training was the problem. We had a great run in when we got 4th the first time, and Harry's fitness methods would have been in full flow then. So was that the problem? More than likely not.

At the end of the day he is clearly a good manager that just like every other manager has to make decisions that with hindsight could look like the worst one. But if he picked the other decision, he may have gotten the exact same result/a much worse result/a much better result. We just don't know. Football is a game with so many variables, with players concentration, luck, the way the wind blows, the way the ball bounces and a million other things that can impact on a result. Harry's a good manager that has been hampered by speculation and doesn't deserve all the insults considering the success he has given us.

Thanks for your reply ... I also think he's done a decent job and is not a bad manager ...I've always had the impression of Harry's teams, that the players enjoy playing for him and will give their all for him... I do think as you say maybe with all the goings on recently that some players may not be entirely with him but that can rectified if he is backed by the chairman and the board with a new lengthy contract ...

However I no longer believe in Harry in the long term .. I had faith in him when he took over that he would have us challenging for champs league qualification every season. I believe there is a number of managers who would have done similar with a little tweaking of the squad here and there ... O'Neil with a weaker Villa squad was doing similar and I'd put him in the same bracket as Harry... Moyes if he were employed at the time of 2 points from 8, rather than Harry, I believe he would also have done just as well. Harry is a challenger for a top four position , we could go safe with him over the next three seasons so there's an argument for giving him a new contract.


But now we are where we find ourselves can we be push on from here ? Do we believe we can push on from here ? In the short term, three years , the time to build a new a stadium , what do we want? ... I'd say we want a little more than challenging for top four we want to be in the top four , its a requirement! ... Maybe Harry can do this for us but I'm not so sure, He comes across to me as a slower learner , repeating last seasons league collapse and this time without a CL campaign is not on ... He's also had health issues , he's also commuting many miles to the training ground from his home.

I just feel maybe its time we get in someone with experience of challenging for titles to get us into those top four positions, someone who will also give us a standing amongst quality players from abroad, I just feel Harry can't offer us much more than he's already given us ...

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

In terms of Harry's management, the big thing for me is that he has taken players with talent and made them play to something like their full potential.

Its a fair point, and as you say - easier said than done.

Is that enough to keep us improving? Keep us competing for higher positions?

 

[braineclipse]

Honestly, see my point about the competitiveness of the league above.

This was your argument: "Now, with the money Chelsea, Liverpool and especially Emirates Marketing Project have spent, they should be well ahead of us. United will always be up there. Arsenal now have the big stadium and can pay much bigger wages."

You really still think Chelsea are better now than under Mourinho? You really think Liverpool are better now than when they had Alonso, Mascherano and Torres? You don't think Arsenal are worse now then they were when we had Jol?

 

[The Moonlit Knight]

It occurs to me that Harrys supporters are so staunchly in his camp I would like to know why. What is it about his management that deserves such defence? The most common response seems to be "Because we were brick before and we arent now", which is pretty weak IMO.

Results can be attributed to things out of a managers control (particularly when trying to compare managers of different eras to each other). For example, Utd, City, Arsenal and Chelsea all get deducted 50 points for match rigging - that leaves us top and champions - but doesnt prove Redknapp to be the best manager does it?

So, aside from the top 4 finishes (which some have argued have factors such as a much better playing squad and weaker competition for places upon it) what is it people have seen in Redknapps management to warrant such support?

Honestly, I havent seen much that I wouldnt expect from any decent manager. Certainly nothing outstanding.

And thanks to Harry we are operating at a very high level, which means we are in a place where management can make a significant impact - impacts I think we are lacking from Redknapp - which could take us up a level.

I find the opposite. Harry loyalists tend to be well aware of his shortcomings and will freely be critical of him. Harry rebels will give him credit for hardly anything. And the credit they do give him is normally followed by a but or is a back handed compliment.

 

[Leeds Spur]

Thanks for your reply ... I also think he's done a decent job and is not a bad manager ...I've always had the impression of Harry's teams, that the players enjoy playing for him and will give their all for him... I do think as you say maybe with all the goings on recently that some players may not be entirely with him but that can rectified if he is backed by the chairman and the board with a new lengthy contract ...

However I no longer believe in Harry in the long term .. I had faith in him when he took over that he would have us challenging for champs league qualification every season. I believe there is a number of managers who would have done similar with a little tweaking of the squad here and there ... O'Neil with a weaker Villa squad was doing similar and I'd put him in the same bracket as Harry... Moyes if he were employed at the time of 2 points from 8, rather than Harry, I believe he would also have done just as well. Harry is a challenger for a top four position , we could go safe with him over the next three seasons so there's an argument for giving him a new contract.


But now we are where we find ourselves can we be push on from here ? Do we believe we can push on from here ? In the short term, three years , the time to build a new a stadium , what do we want? ... I'd say we want a little more than challenging for top four we want to be in the top four , its a requirement! ... Maybe Harry can do this for us but I'm not so sure, He comes across to me as a slower learner , repeating last seasons league collapse and this time without a CL campaign is not on ... He's also had health issues , he's also commuting many miles to the training ground from his home.

I just feel maybe its time we get in someone with experience of challenging for titles to get us into those top four positions, someone who will also give us a standing amongst quality players from abroad, I just feel Harry can't offer us much more than he's already given us ...

Excellent post

 

[braineclipse]

Thanks for your reply ... I also think he's done a decent job and is not a bad manager ...I've always had the impression of Harry's teams, that the players enjoy playing for him and will give their all for him... I do think as you say maybe with all the goings on recently that some players may not be entirely with him but that can rectified if he is backed by the chairman and the board with a new lengthy contract ...

However I no longer believe in Harry in the long term .. I had faith in him when he took over that he would have us challenging for champs league qualification every season. I believe there is a number of managers who would have done similar with a little tweaking of the squad here and there ... O'Neil with a weaker Villa squad was doing similar and I'd put him in the same bracket as Harry... Moyes if he were employed at the time of 2 points from 8, rather than Harry, I believe he would also have done just as well. Harry is a challenger for a top four position , we could go safe with him over the next three seasons so there's an argument for giving him a new contract.


But now we are where we find ourselves can we be push on from here ? Do we believe we can push on from here ? In the short term, three years , the time to build a new a stadium , what do we want? ... I'd say we want a little more than challenging for top four we want to be in the top four , its a requirement! ... Maybe Harry can do this for us but I'm not so sure, He comes across to me as a slower learner , repeating last seasons league collapse and this time without a CL campaign is not on ... He's also had health issues , he's also commuting many miles to the training ground from his home.

I just feel maybe its time we get in someone with experience of challenging for titles to get us into those top four positions, someone who will also give us a standing amongst quality players from abroad, I just feel Harry can't offer us much more than he's already given us ...

I think Harry can turn this around once more. After our dip in form towards the end of last season and one of the most annoying transfer windows in my memory followed by getting crushed twice by the Manchester sides we bounced back very well. I see no reason why Harry can't do the same again. I also think that now that the England job is sorted he should be trusted to stay for a while and be given any money Levy was unsure about giving him in the past year or so, with instructions to work towards the future of course.

I'm not quite sure who this person with "experience of challenging for titles" is. If we can get Mourinho I would gladly see Harry go, but it doesn't seem likely. The managers we've been linked with have been people like Rodgers, Martinez and Moyes, I don't see how they are what you want.

 

[ArnieArdiles]

But that's the point isn't it? I'm trying to show how ridiculous it all is. No-one thought we were perennial CL challengers. No-one certainly thought Redknapp had a hope in hell of making us the force we are. And he does it, and all of a sudden it's 'well we should be doing better than this anyway'. It's rubbish.

Well all I'm telling you is that I thought we could challenge for fourth under Harry when he was appointed .. I thought we could challenge for fourth at the time with any half decent manager , which Harry is ... I just resent this notion constantly forwarded that we were so rubbish when he took over. We wern't rubbish , we were a squad that had lost its spearhead , Berbatov & Keane and were led by a manager that didn't have the backing of his players due to his strict management style and lack of english . But we were not rubbish and Harry was not the messiah .

 

[mick cooper]

To sum up anyone who still supports Harry is a fudging macaron, anyone who is against him is a fudging macaron. Close thread.

can I be a macaroon instead?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

They made the final of the Champions League the season where we almost pipped them. They weren't invincible like, but they were still bloody good.

That run had a certain element of 'Chelsea 11/12' to it in my view. Not that they were ultra defensive, but I just don't think they were that strong and to a man, I thought we had as strong a team, and squad as them at that point. But they were coming to the end of one cycle and we were at the top of ours with Jol.

 

[ArnieArdiles]

I think Harry can turn this around once more. After our dip in form towards the end of last season and one of the most annoying transfer windows in my memory followed by getting crushed twice by the Manchester sides we bounced back very well. I see no reason why Harry can't do the same again. I also think that now that the England job is sorted he should be trusted to stay for a while and be given any money Levy was unsure about giving him in the past year or so, with instructions to work towards the future of course.

I'm not quite sure who this person with "experience of challenging for titles" is. If we can get Mourinho I would gladly see Harry go, but it doesn't seem likely. The managers we've been linked with have been people like Rodgers, Martinez and Moyes, I don't see how they are what you want.

Its a good point , now that the Ennland managers job is sorted we may well see a different Harry .. He may now, not be so quiet when other managers are instructing their players to rough our ones up ... He may well get animated with certain Chris Foys and other match officials, rather than whimpering that they are genuine in their mistakes, time and time again so as not to upset the FA big wigs ..

I still see us an exciting challenge for a top manager even if we finish outside the top four this season ... Not sure whom I'd go for but there is a certain Italian who loves London and has got a decent CV too ..:-k

 

[southstand1882]

Hahahahahaha

A mate of mine (City fan) just texted me that he's being kicked out his house

His landlord is a United fan. It's all kicked off today!

He's moving into one of my spare rooms

:ross:

 

[mick cooper]

Hahahahahaha

A mate of mine (City fan) just texted me that he's being kicked out his house

His landlord is a United fan. It's all kicked off today!

He's moving into one of my spare rooms

:ross:

you're prepared to admit to having a city fan as a friend?

UNCLEAN, UNCLEAN