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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Gazza Dazzla said:
And when he says something like “Spurs top targets were unavailable and there is no point buying just anybody” what does that mean? Or do we ignore those sort of quotes because it doesn’t suit your agenda? As you say, some will believe what they want to believe, despite what Poch says.
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I think in general, most football fans (not just singling out Spurs fans here) will believe whatever puts their club in the greatest light possible and are likely to dismiss anything that may be construed as even slightly negative as rumour, hearsay, the press stirring it or a language barrier in Poch’s case.

Whenever we don’t sign someone or a player doesn’t want to sign a new contract, it’s because the other party have “moved the goalposts”. Exhibit A being Toby. When he wasn’t in the team last season most on here claimed Sanchez was already better or would be better in the future. Now Toby is back in the side everyone rates him really highly again, funny that. Will be the same if/when Eriksen explores his options and wants the going rate for a midfielder of his stature and abilities.

I don’t see the point in discussing the transfer window as it’s been and gone but I just find it a little too convenient every time there’s quotes that show Poch being a little dissatisfied to dismiss it as false and only believe the quotes where he says everything is hunky dory.

I’m sure he is a little irked by the lack of signings but I think he’s more annoyed with the performances not being to his standard so far this season.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I think in general, most football fans (not just singling out Spurs fans here) will believe whatever puts their club in the greatest light possible and are likely to dismiss anything that may be construed as even slightly negative as rumour, hearsay, the press stirring it or a language barrier in Poch’s case.

Whenever we don’t sign someone or a player doesn’t want to sign a new contract, it’s because the other party have “moved the goalposts”. Exhibit A being Toby. When he wasn’t in the team last season most on here claimed Sanchez was already better or would be better in the future. Now Toby is back in the side everyone rates him really highly again, funny that. Will be the same if/when Eriksen explores his options and wants the going rate for a midfielder of his stature and abilities.

I don’t see the point in discussing the transfer window as it’s been and gone but I just find it a little too convenient every time there’s quotes that show Poch being a little dissatisfied to dismiss it as false and only believe the quotes where he says everything is hunky dory.

I’m sure he is a little irked by the lack of signings but I think he’s more annoyed with the performances not being to his standard so far this season.
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that is exactly what happens but in reverse mate, every time Poch says something about wanting to refresh the squad it’s “see Poch wasn’t happy with the window” and the actual quotes from Poch himself explaining what happened in the window are dismissed as lies!

It’s very simple. Did Poch want players? Of course he did. Did he want just any old dross? Of course not! Does he understand why we didn’t get the players he wanted? Clearly he does and he says as much in almost every presser, but it gets dismissed as lies!

It’s frankly laughable!
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
How have you read those quotes and decided he’s unhappy with what went on in the summer?

Also when do you decide to believe what Poch says? Because he’s been quoted almost 10 times saying he’s happy with how the transfer window panned out!
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He's been quoted as saying he's happy, and he's been quoted as saying that we can't get away with doing that, that it isn't sustainable, and that we'll try to rectify that in January.

In other words, he's been quoted as saying opposite things, imo. And what you end up believing comes down to how much you think he's covering for the man who decides what makes targets of ours 'unaffordable'. A price tag above 00.00 pounds, perhaps.

Either way, the summer's gone, and I've said what I had to say on that window. As I said to begin with, all I hope for is that we don't repeat it in January. Some movement is badly needed.
 
DubaiSpur said:
He's been quoted as saying he's happy, and he's been quoted as saying that we can't get away with doing that, that it isn't sustainable, and that we'll try to rectify that in January.

In other words, he's been quoted as saying opposite things, imo. And what you end up believing comes down to how much you think he's covering for the man who decides what makes targets of ours 'unaffordable'. A price tag above 00.00 pounds, perhaps.

Either way, the summer's gone, and I've said what I had to say on that window. As I said to begin with, all I hope for is that we don't repeat it in January. Some movement is badly needed.
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Why is it difficult to understand that it is a complex situation with myriad factors and it isn’t as simple as ‘we didn’t sign players, so bad’ or ‘we did sign players, so good’?

Poch clearly wants to keep improving the club. He also recognises the constraints the club have. He also, and I wish I knew how to put this point in massive bold italics from my phone, did not want to sign players just for the sake of it. The fact that we didn’t bring anyone in was as much his decision as Levy’s, once the reality of the situation we were in became clear. I have to repeat again, it was as much his decision not to bring players in.

And it’s a reason for our success. The tight squad where everyone knows their place and everyone is settled, knows the system, feels like they have a fair shake but with enough competition to know they need to keep high standards. It is as much his decision to keep the squad that way as Levy’s, in fact probably more his decision.

Look at his treatment of Moura after he signed. He got a shiny new toy, but didn’t use him until he was settled into the country, the league, the squad, the system, etc etc etc. Any new signing, given the adaptation period to get up to speed in a demanding system, needs to be demonstrably and certainly better than what we already have, otherwise there is little point. You were taking about Foyth on the previous page, as if having someone better than Foyth would mean they play more. He is a 4th choice CB. Tell me, how many clubs where there is a clear first choice, top class centre back pairing do they also someone just as good or nearly as good in 4th choice? I’m not talking about Man United, where they are all as average as each other, I’m talking about a club with a clear, top quality centre back pairing like we have. Because no club is going to get someone nearly as good as them to come and sit 4th choice behind them, particularly when we already have someone as good as Sanchez.

And it is like this throughout the rest of the squad. We don’t need major surgery at all. We will likely need to move Wanyama and Dembele our at the end of the season and replace them, and maybe replace Toby, but right now with the squad as is, it’s pretty deep. And we’re 2 points off the top when we usually hit form mid to late November onwards.
 
These quotes in particular should really end the debate once and for all. He is not covering for Levy - it is blatantly obvious. He wanted to sign players as always but understands why we couldn’t. If he sounds like he is saying two things at once in different quotes it’s because he understands it’s a complex situation, not because he’s trying to send secret pressure messaagss to Levy while also trying to explain quite simply why certain things happened the way they did!

"I think one thing is to make clear: all the coaching staff and managers always want to improve the squad -- sometimes signing players and sometimes adding players from the academy.

"Of course we are always trying to improve our squad, because football is dynamic. Every six months you need to do something to refresh and to wake up, or to change the dynamic in the dressing room.

"But if you cannot achieve what you need or want, then to sign because you need to make happy people or act like all the clubs, I think that's not common sense. We showed that we don't care and we are not politicians or populists.

"It's easy to say 'we're going to sign three players and oh look, the people are happy because we signed.' But if we don't need the players who are available then why are we going to sign them? That's the point."
 
BrainOfLevy said:
Why is it difficult to understand that it is a complex situation with myriad factors and it isn’t as simple as ‘we didn’t sign players, so bad’ or ‘we did sign players, so good’?

Poch clearly wants to keep improving the club. He also recognises the constraints the club have. He also, and I wish I knew how to put this point in massive bold italics from my phone, did not want to sign players just for the sake of it. The fact that we didn’t bring anyone in was as much his decision as Levy’s, once the reality of the situation we were in became clear. I have to repeat again, it was as much his decision not to bring players in.

And it’s a reason for our success. The tight squad where everyone knows their place and everyone is settled, knows the system, feels like they have a fair shake but with enough competition to know they need to keep high standards. It is as much his decision to keep the squad that way as Levy’s, in fact probably more his decision.
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As Poch said, we are not geniuses who outthought all of football by not signing anyone. And where we are now is not solely down to this, just as subsequent struggles will not be solely down to this.

Look, in the end, I accept he didn't want to sign players for the sake of it. But the realities of the situation are down to Levy as much as him - probably more so, since Levy determines who is affordable or achievable, not him.

And he's obviously accepted it - he's still here, isn't he? But that doesn't mean he's happy with the situation, and I wouldn't want to see what happened this summer repeated in January, is all. I doubt he does either.

Apart from that, my other point was that there seemed to be genuine weaknesses in the squad that are definitely hurting us now - as with Dembele, and as with the lack of any replacement for Dier, among others. And I still stand by that.

BrainOfLevy said:
Look at his treatment of Moura after he signed. He got a shiny new toy, but didn’t use him until he was settled into the country, the league, the squad, the system, etc etc etc. Any new signing, given the adaptation period to get up to speed in a demanding system, needs to be demonstrably and certainly better than what we already have, otherwise there is little point.

[....]

And it is like this throughout the rest of the squad. We don’t need major surgery at all. We will likely need to move Wanyama and Dembele our at the end of the season and replace them, and maybe replace Toby, but right now with the squad as is, it’s pretty deep. And we’re 2 points off the top when we usually hit form mid to late November onwards.
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I'd argue the exact opposite - Imo, we need to make decisions on the futures of at least five players/positions, if not more. Wanyama's likely going to leave come the end of the season. Dembele likewise. Toby likewise. All will need replacing with players of equivalent or higher quality. And then, we have a host of decisions to make. At left-back, what's the situation with Rose? Will he need replacing? At right back, are we satisfied with Trippier's defensive lapses given his proficiency further up the field? Or the reverse with Aurier? Where (or how) do we find the space for KWP? Do we even do so? And, at goalie, are we comfortable having Gazzaniga as our back-up keeper once Vorm is let go? At center-back, do we let Foyth go, and do we find a left-footed CB to provide a backup to Verts as he ages?

And, within the context of the January window, which signings can we make that can provide us the boost we might need to sustain our position two points off the top? If, of course, if we're still in that position come January. Can we find someone so we can bench Dier when he's struggling for form, as is presently the case? Can we bring in someone who can take some of the weight off of Kane in terms of being a focal point for the attack (and someone who's better than Llorente, obviously?)

That's the problem with putting things off - they pile up. And the longer we go without making decisions on the squad, the more decisions we will have to make. Thus, (again, imo), we need an active January. And, again, I hope we don't repeat what happened in the summer. That's all.
 
DubaiSpur said:
As Poch said, we are not geniuses who outthought all of football by not signing anyone. And where we are now is not solely down to this, just as subsequent struggles will not be solely down to this.

Look, in the end, I accept he didn't want to sign players for the sake of it. But the realities of the situation are down to Levy as much as him - probably more so, since Levy determines who is affordable or achievable, not him.

And he's obviously accepted it - he's still here, isn't he? But that doesn't mean he's happy with the situation, and I wouldn't want to see what happened this summer repeated in January, is all. I doubt he does either.

Apart from that, my other point was that there seemed to be genuine weaknesses in the squad that are definitely hurting us now - as with Dembele, and as with the lack of any replacement for Dier, among others. And I still stand by that.



I'd argue the exact opposite - Imo, we need to make decisions on the futures of at least five players/positions, if not more. Wanyama's likely going to leave come the end of the season. Dembele likewise. Toby likewise. All will need replacing with players of equivalent or higher quality. And then, we have a host of decisions to make. At left-back, what's the situation with Rose? Will he need replacing? At right back, are we satisfied with Trippier's defensive lapses given his proficiency further up the field? Or the reverse with Aurier? Where (or how) do we find the space for KWP? Do we even do so? And, at goalie, are we comfortable having Gazzaniga as our back-up keeper once Vorm is let go? At center-back, do we let Foyth go, and do we find a left-footed CB to provide a backup to Verts as he ages?

And, within the context of the January window, which signings can we make that can provide us the boost we might need to sustain our position two points off the top? If, of course, if I'm still in that position come January. Can we find someone so we can bench Dier when he's struggling for form, as is presently the case? Can we bring in someone who can take some of the weight off of Kane in terms of being a focal point for the attack (and someone who's better than Llorente, obviously?)

That's the problem with putting things off - they pile up. And the longer we go without making decisions on the squad, the more decisions we will have to make. Thus, (again, imo), we need an active January. And, again, I hope we don't repeat what happened in the summer. That's all.
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I would just say that I can guarantee it won’t happen again this summer. Because, let’s say Toby is gone, we will almost certainly sign a CB to replace him, because there will be an actual space. Same with Wanyama and Dembele should they be offloaded as expected. His point on not signing anyone is that those players were still here, so signing obvious improvements on them is not easy. Once there is space, players will be signed.

Levy does determine what is affordable but I don’t think we didn’t sign anyone because there was no money, I think we didn’t sign anyone because there wasn’t space because we didn’t sell first choice players, and any improvements on those first choice players are in the pay grade we aren’t quite at yet. I am happy with the level Levy has set us at and think it will continue to loosen up once we get into the stadium. But right now we are punching above weight and it isn’t easy to find players to improve what we have considering the next step up is to compete with Emirates Marketing Project. The players that will enable us to do that consistently will require another level of money we haven’t quite reached yet, and I’m ok with that.

I just don’t share your assessment of the squad but we can agree to disagree there. There will be questions on a lot of players, no doubt, and I think next summer will see a fairly big overhaul. But I’m not worried that we won’t sign anyone. In fact, I think we will sign a lot of players, relatively speaking, and most fans will be happy with that. My worry will be can we sign a lot of players while maintaining the culture and getting them all settled to hit the ground running. I think we will sign at least one CB, two central midfielders, a Llorente replacement, and maybe Rose and Vorm replacements too. I think that will happen not because Levy suddenly loosens the purse strings, but because space will open up and he will spend to satisfy Poch. And I don’t think it will necessarily make us any more likely to be successful next season than this, unless we start reaping stadium money and start paying rotation options near 6 figure weekly wages, as that’s what it will take to compete with City. If we do that, I think we can step up a level.
 
BrainOfLevy said:
These quotes in particular should really end the debate once and for all. He is not covering for Levy - it is blatantly obvious. He wanted to sign players as always but understands why we couldn’t. If he sounds like he is saying two things at once in different quotes it’s because he understands it’s a complex situation, not because he’s trying to send secret pressure messaagss to Levy while also trying to explain quite simply why certain things happened the way they did!

"I think one thing is to make clear: all the coaching staff and managers always want to improve the squad -- sometimes signing players and sometimes adding players from the academy.

"Of course we are always trying to improve our squad, because football is dynamic. Every six months you need to do something to refresh and to wake up, or to change the dynamic in the dressing room.

"But if you cannot achieve what you need or want, then to sign because you need to make happy people or act like all the clubs, I think that's not common sense. We showed that we don't care and we are not politicians or populists.

"It's easy to say 'I'm going to sign three players and oh look, the people are happy because we signed.' But if we don't need the players who are available then why are we going to sign them? That's the point."
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Well its clear to me that Poch wanted players, and its all Levys fault he didnt get them. The tight bastard. Levys penny pinching obsession is a huge issue and there must be a real problem between he and Poch now because of it ;)
 
Jurgen the German said:
I think in general, most football fans (not just singling out Spurs fans here) will believe whatever puts their club in the greatest light possible and are likely to dismiss anything that may be construed as even slightly negative as rumour, hearsay, the press stirring it or a language barrier in Poch’s case.

Whenever we don’t sign someone or a player doesn’t want to sign a new contract, it’s because the other party have “moved the goalposts”. Exhibit A being Toby. When he wasn’t in the team last season most on here claimed Sanchez was already better or would be better in the future. Now Toby is back in the side everyone rates him really highly again, funny that. Will be the same if/when Eriksen explores his options and wants the going rate for a midfielder of his stature and abilities.

I don’t see the point in discussing the transfer window as it’s been and gone but I just find it a little too convenient every time there’s quotes that show Poch being a little dissatisfied to dismiss it as false and only believe the quotes where he says everything is hunky dory.

I’m sure he is a little irked by the lack of signings but I think he’s more annoyed with the performances not being to his standard so far this season.
Click to expand...

First point re: Toby. Not everyone. Certainly not me. Happy he is here as without him we'd be buggered as Verts is out, but I still believe he is not the player he was and that we will replace him when we can move him on. Sanchez will be excellent. He is far more assured when Jan is playing. Your insinuation that some of us went off Toby because of his wage demands lacks a lot of context. For me, he wanted more money than his performances and injury record stood up for.

I think what has irked Poch more than anything this season is having to spend weeks and weeks without his first team squad all on the same prep page due to the World Cup.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I think in general, most football fans (not just singling out Spurs fans here) will believe whatever puts their club in the greatest light possible and are likely to dismiss anything that may be construed as even slightly negative as rumour, hearsay, the press stirring it or a language barrier in Poch’s case.

Whenever we don’t sign someone or a player doesn’t want to sign a new contract, it’s because the other party have “moved the goalposts”. Exhibit A being Toby. When he wasn’t in the team last season most on here claimed Sanchez was already better or would be better in the future. Now Toby is back in the side everyone rates him really highly again, funny that. Will be the same if/when Eriksen explores his options and wants the going rate for a midfielder of his stature and abilities.

I don’t see the point in discussing the transfer window as it’s been and gone but I just find it a little too convenient every time there’s quotes that show Poch being a little dissatisfied to dismiss it as false and only believe the quotes where he says everything is hunky dory.

I’m sure he is a little irked by the lack of signings but I think he’s more annoyed with the performances not being to his standard so far this season.
Click to expand...

First point re: Toby. Not everyone. Certainly not me. Happy he is here as without him we'd be buggered as Verts is out, but I still believe he is not the player he was and that we will replace him when we can move him on. Sanchez will be excellent. He is far more assured when Jan is playing. Your insinuation that some of us went off Toby because of his wage demands lacks a lot of context. For me, he wanted more money than his performances and injury record stood up for.

I think what has irked Poch more than anything this season is having to spend weeks and weeks without his first team squad all on the same prep page due to the World Cup.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I think in general, most football fans (not just singling out Spurs fans here) will believe whatever puts their club in the greatest light possible and are likely to dismiss anything that may be construed as even slightly negative as rumour, hearsay, the press stirring it or a language barrier in Poch’s case.

Whenever we don’t sign someone or a player doesn’t want to sign a new contract, it’s because the other party have “moved the goalposts”. Exhibit A being Toby. When he wasn’t in the team last season most on here claimed Sanchez was already better or would be better in the future. Now Toby is back in the side everyone rates him really highly again, funny that. Will be the same if/when Eriksen explores his options and wants the going rate for a midfielder of his stature and abilities.

I don’t see the point in discussing the transfer window as it’s been and gone but I just find it a little too convenient every time there’s quotes that show Poch being a little dissatisfied to dismiss it as false and only believe the quotes where he says everything is hunky dory.

I’m sure he is a little irked by the lack of signings but I think he’s more annoyed with the performances not being to his standard so far this season.
Click to expand...

First point re: Toby. Not everyone. Certainly not me. Happy he is here as without him we'd be buggered as Verts is out, but I still believe he is not the player he was and that we will replace him when we can move him on. Sanchez will be excellent. He is far more assured when Jan is playing. Your insinuation that some of us went off Toby because of his wage demands lacks a lot of context. For me, he wanted more money than his performances and injury record stood up for.

I think what has irked Poch more than anything this season is having to spend weeks and weeks without his first team squad all on the same prep page due to the World Cup.
 
Answering within the quotes in bold mate...


DubaiSpur said:
As Poch said, we are not geniuses who outthought all of football by not signing anyone. And where we are now is not solely down to this, just as subsequent struggles will not be solely down to this.

Look, in the end, I accept he didn't want to sign players for the sake of it. But the realities of the situation are down to Levy as much as him - probably more so, since Levy determines who is affordable or achievable, not him.


Poch has made it clear he wants a competitive squad of 25 players. He does not want high-paid extras hanging around the training ground as they can disrupt. He and Levy expected three to definitely leave. Those players priced themselves out of moves with their vigorous wage demands. The reason we wanted them to leave was as much because their replacements would fit right into the 25 man squad. If we'd signed players to replace them AND kept them, we'd have a double-negative of paying big salaries and having unhappy players around the place.



And he's obviously accepted it - he's still here, isn't he? But that doesn't mean he's happy with the situation, and I wouldn't want to see what happened this summer repeated in January, is all. I doubt he does either.

Apart from that, my other point was that there seemed to be genuine weaknesses in the squad that are definitely hurting us now - as with Dembele, and as with the lack of any replacement for Dier, among others. And I still stand by that.

I think we could do with a couple of fresh faces, no disagreement. But we are doing fine regardless.


I'd argue the exact opposite - Imo, we need to make decisions on the futures of at least five players/positions, if not more. Wanyama's likely going to leave come the end of the season. Dembele likewise. Toby likewise. All will need replacing with players of equivalent or higher quality. And then, we have a host of decisions to make. At left-back, what's the situation with Rose? Will he need replacing? At right back, are we satisfied with Trippier's defensive lapses given his proficiency further up the field? Or the reverse with Aurier? Where (or how) do we find the space for KWP? Do we even do so? And, at goalie, are we comfortable having Gazzaniga as our back-up keeper once Vorm is let go? At center-back, do we let Foyth go, and do we find a left-footed CB to provide a backup to Verts as he ages?

Good questions, many of them are already answered by the management I'm sure.

And, within the context of the January window, which signings can we make that can provide us the boost we might need to sustain our position two points off the top? If, of course, if I'm still in that position come January. Can we find someone so we can bench Dier when he's struggling for form, as is presently the case? Can we bring in someone who can take some of the weight off of Kane in terms of being a focal point for the attack (and someone who's better than Llorente, obviously?)

I have a different view of Dier's massive importance to our club.

That's the problem with putting things off - they pile up. And the longer we go without making decisions on the squad, the more decisions we will have to make. Thus, (again, imo), we need an active January. And, again, I hope we don't repeat what happened in the summer. That's all.
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best...
 
thfcsteff said:
First point re: Toby. Not everyone. Certainly not me. Happy he is here as without him we'd be buggered as Verts is out, but I still believe he is not the player he was and that we will replace him when we can move him on. Sanchez will be excellent. He is far more assured when Jan is playing. Your insinuation that some of us went off Toby because of his wage demands lacks a lot of context. For me, he wanted more money than his performances and injury record stood up for.

I think what has irked Poch more than anything this season is having to spend weeks and weeks without his first team squad all on the same prep page due to the World Cup.
Click to expand...

I’m not sure Sanchez looks too assured no matter who is playing alongside him. I don’t doubt his potential but two of his very worst performances for us (Liverpool away and Juventus away) came with Jan alongside him.
 
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