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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

It would be silly I think to say Poch has been found out. Poch has overall done an exceptional job in his time here as Spurs manager and I think it is fair to say, exceeded expectations. When he was first hired, nobody could see probably that we would qualify for the CL 3 seasons in a row. In fact, I remember there being a debate about whether we should have gone for De Boer instead! Needless to say, Poch has done an incredible job, despite having his hands tied for a while and I hope he stays for a long time.

However, as with any manager, there are criticisms. I'm not generally a huge fan of his in game management and his record in Europe, I'm sorry to say, is poor. First season in Europa, finished 2nd behind Besiktas and then knocked out of Ro32 by Fiorentina. Next season, knocked out in the Ro16 by Dortmund 5-1 on aggregate. Season after that, group stages of the Champions league, in a not particularly impressive group and then knocked out by Gent in the Ro32 in Europa. Season after that, did amazingly well in the group stage...and then knocked out by Juventus in the 1st knockout stage. This season, well, very unlikely we'll leave the group again in the CL.

This is poor. We've lost more knockout ties in Europe over the past 5 years than we have won, though we have been so unimpressive, that we've actually only played 5 ties in 4 seasons.

And I guess the other one is trophies. I'm not someone who will criticise him if he doesn't win one, the past 5 years with Poch have been amongst the best in recent times as a Spurs fan. Yet I can't shake the feeling that our time with our current set of players is coming to an end soon. I don't mean because they're all brick and need to be sold or that they're all so good, they'll be leaving us soon. But how often do you get pretty much the same core of players sticking around for 5+ seasons now? It is very rare. For that matter, it is increasingly rare to have someone stay as long as Poch has now. It would be a shame if we didn't win anything with this group, what has actually been an exceptional group of players.

The links to Real I'm actually not all that worried about. Not because I think we're so amazing but because I am struggling to think of a club and manager that have such different ways of thinking. Their current manager is 4 points off the top of the table and top of their CL group and will likely be sacked once he loses to Barcelona this weekend. Can you imagine Poch at Real? The pressure there is insane, not just to win but to win big trophies and especially the CL. Can you imagine Poch going toe to toe with Ramos and Marcelo and trying to ship them out? I just can't see it.

I'd be more concerned with Man Utd or Bayern tbh.
 
Hootnow said:
It would be silly I think to say Poch has been found out. Poch has overall done an exceptional job in his time here as Spurs manager and I think it is fair to say, exceeded expectations. When he was first hired, nobody could see probably that we would qualify for the CL 3 seasons in a row. In fact, I remember there being a debate about whether we should have gone for De Boer instead! Needless to say, Poch has done an incredible job, despite having his hands tied for a while and I hope he stays for a long time.

However, as with any manager, there are criticisms. I'm not generally a huge fan of his in game management and his record in Europe, I'm sorry to say, is poor. First season in Europa, finished 2nd behind Besiktas and then knocked out of Ro32 by Fiorentina. Next season, knocked out in the Ro16 by Dortmund 5-1 on aggregate. Season after that, group stages of the Champions league, in a not particularly impressive group and then knocked out by Gent in the Ro32 in Europa. Season after that, did amazingly well in the group stage...and then knocked out by Juventus in the 1st knockout stage. This season, well, very unlikely we'll leave the group again in the CL.

This is poor. We've lost more knockout ties in Europe over the past 5 years than we have won, though we have been so unimpressive, that we've actually only played 5 ties in 4 seasons.

And I guess the other one is trophies. I'm not someone who will criticise him if he doesn't win one, the past 5 years with Poch have been amongst the best in recent times as a Spurs fan. Yet I can't shake the feeling that our time with our current set of players is coming to an end soon. I don't mean because they're all brick and need to be sold or that they're all so good, they'll be leaving us soon. But how often do you get pretty much the same core of players sticking around for 5+ seasons now? It is very rare. For that matter, it is increasingly rare to have someone stay as long as Poch has now. It would be a shame if we didn't win anything with this group, what has actually been an exceptional group of players.

The links to Real I'm actually not all that worried about. Not because I think I'm so amazing but because I am struggling to think of a club and manager that have such different ways of thinking. Their current manager is 4 points off the top of the table and top of their CL group and will likely be sacked once he loses to Barcelona this weekend. Can you imagine Poch at Real? The pressure there is insane, not just to win but to win big trophies and especially the CL. Can you imagine Poch going toe to toe with Ramos and Marcelo and trying to ship them out? I just can't see it.

I'd be more concerned with Man Utd or Bayern tbh.
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Solid and almost exceptional post. Immediately post match it is a challenge to maintain perspective, but with a day or so to calm down your post is pretty much spot on. Posh has taken us on a wild and wonderful ride, made all the better for the inclusion of many of 'our own'. He has indeed exceeded expectations and provided more memorable moments than most of his predecessors put together. I agree that it will be hard to keep this group together and I hope that Poch has it in him to plan for that so that we can keep where we are (apart from the gonading up in Europe), and maybe even progress.

COYS!!!!
 
Don’t get me wrong I have every sympathy for the situation Poch has found himself in with the lack of incomings due to the lack of outgoings.

Injuries have not helped that situation and have really shone a light on the lack of depth of players that can play the way Poch wants his team to play. Alli is a massive miss at the moment.

What I was trying to say was Kanes goals historically masked the lack of squad depth quality but without those this year, along with the injuries we’ve looked a lot less solid. We’ve ground out results in the epl but been walloped by mistakes in Europe playing against quality opposition who can do that to you.

It’s the lack of trust in the second string in the squad that is killing the team- what has llorente done to poch to not get more game time?

Personally I think he’ll go to united in the summer cos he will be tinkled with the current situation with transfers n squad quality and take Kane n alli with him as the glazers have more money than sense.
 
superfaisty said:
It’s the lack of trust in the second string in the squad that is killing the team- what has llorente done to poch to not get more game time?
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Llorente has not earned a start when he's appeared on pitch. We don't know how *ready* players are e.g. we may think a player is ready, but they could have a small knock, not worth risking, or have too many minutes, or not trying in training, or not performing in training, or not paying attention
 
Bullet said:
Llorente has not earned a start when he's appeared on pitch. We don't know how *ready* players are e.g. we may think a player is ready, but they could have a small knock, not worth risking, or have too many minutes, or not trying in training, or not performing in training, or not paying attention
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Exactly, Llorente has played himself out of contention. IMO Son is now second choice striker, having made the most of the chances he was given there.

Now that Moura is up to speed, Lamela is fit - I could well see him used there more if it is felt Kane needs a rest.
 
superfaisty said:
Don’t get me wrong I have every sympathy for the situation Poch has found himself in with the lack of incomings due to the lack of outgoings.

Injuries have not helped that situation and have really shone a light on the lack of depth of players that can play the way Poch wants his team to play. Alli is a massive miss at the moment.

What I was trying to say was Kanes goals historically masked the lack of squad depth quality but without those this year, along with the injuries we’ve looked a lot less solid. We’ve ground out results in the epl but been walloped by mistakes in Europe playing against quality opposition who can do that to you.

It’s the lack of trust in the second string in the squad that is killing the team- what has llorente done to poch to not get more game time?

Personally I think he’ll go to united in the summer cos he will be tinkled with the current situation with transfers n squad quality and take Kane n alli with him as the glazers have more money than sense.
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I think the (lack of) use of the 'second string' is indeed an issue. As others have said when they have got their chance they have tended to flop, Llorente being the most obvious example (at least Janssen put in some effort and actually moved his butt lol).

The question them become one of WHY isn't Poch using so many of the recent buys (i.e. Janssen, Llorente, Nkoudou, Foyth etc) who were intended to provide more rotation opportunities; is it because:

1) the players were not the main first or second choices identified when they were bought and did not from the start have the large percentage of the attributes Poch wanted as is now being found out?

2) Poch gives a green light to the signings but he has not been able to use what coaching skills he has to get said players to play in a way that benefits the team overall in terms of squad options.

If it is 2 - and if Levy/the board believe it is 2 - then that long-term is more worrying as it's not like these were all freebies and at some point faith in Poch's decision-making on who is bought will have been wavering....

Both 1 or 2 could be argued on; the implications for what is felt at the top is actually the case are totally different...
 
Janssen was given ample opportunity, and failed to take it.

Same as Llorente.

I would argue both NKoudou and Foyth were bought as prospects, NOT rotation. NKoudou has so far failed to impress, but I think Foyth has done well and been given chances.

And its a myth we havent been rotating. Take a look at the line ups this season, plenty of changes.

Admittedly, many injury driven, but the point is the line up is far from the same each week.
 
I have been thinking recently about our forward play: do we really over-rely on breaking teams by "banging the door down before it breaks" in terms of our attacking strategy.
I look at how Arsenal and Emirates Marketing Project play at their best and i do wonder if we never really get that kind of movement and fluency to have a high proportion of our goals ending up as simple tap-ins, particularly the first goals. Goals all count don't get me wrong, but i do wonder if we often rely on long-range worldies to get us going at our best.

Perhaps Poch's main strengths are on giving a solid defensive structure and platform to then allow for when do do score goals to more often than not be enough to win the games despite what often very poor decisions being taken when we attack (too many shooting on sight instead of laying off for colleagues who'd be in better positions, even for tap-ins).

Emirates Marketing Project and Arsenal seem to often be able to get their players into a 'sweet spot' position whereby a simple cut- back to an area inevitable leads to a goal.

Thoughts?
 
Ive said before, the single biggest thing City do that impresses me is the forward running off the ball.

They have faith the players on the ball will find them, so they get numbers breaking through the lines early and it causes chaos.

We are perfectly capable of this sort of thing in our play, but generaly play the safe/sideways pass to eagerly and our forwards runs are either not picked up or simply not made frequently enough.

We are an effective attacking unit, the stats back it up. And I dont think we rely on worldies at all, but I do think there is real room for improvement in our attacking play.
 
I read yesterday that under Poch in Europe we have let a lead slip in ten European games. Does seem to be a familiar story for us, and we cant really continuously use the inexperienced in Europe excuse anymore....
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Ive said before, the single biggest thing City do that impresses me is the forward running off the ball.

They have faith the players on the ball will find them, so they get numbers breaking through the lines early and it causes chaos.

We are perfectly capable of this sort of thing in our play, but generaly play the safe/sideways pass to eagerly and our forwards runs are either not picked up or simply not made frequently enough.

We are an effective attacking unit, the stats back it up. And I dont think we rely on worldies at all, but I do think there is real room for improvement in our attacking play.
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City rely on their ability to create and score and pressure you into making mistakes by attacking so much

It stood out at Wembley a lot

Fernandinho is not a big tackler or interceptor and he is their key midfielder in the holding role per se which shows how they play

It’s great to see
 
That ability to create and score is based on those runs, IMO. Whenever I watch them they are constantly making runs at/through the defence and it just messes the opposition up completely.

The supporting aspect to this is their midfielders and defenders being comfortable enough on the ball to hold someone off, find space and then pass.

Neither the runs nor the passing is beyond us, we have the players IMO. We just lack the commitment to going for it in that way.

Maybe its Pochs desire to keep tight defensively, which isnt unfair - especially as we do score plenty. But, for me, Id like to see more of that sort of freedom in our forward play.
 
I don't think our disregard for the Europa cup has helped with the Champions League. We had a pretty pathetic record in that considering how often we were in it. One quarter final was it?
 
Mosquito_Coasting said:
I don't think our disregard for the Europa cup has helped with the Champions League. We had a pretty pathetic record in that considering how often we were in it. One quarter final was it?
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The group stage is the worst part. It does enough damage to really hamper the domestic season.

A few years ago we had a game in Turkey (I think!) that was actually closer to Hong Kong than London. On a Thursday evening. In a bricky stadium/pitch, playing a team that kicked lumps out of us.

This is an absolute world away from a CL game, which are almost always more local, with better facilities, and a lack of such an agricultural approach.

The difference in travel, effort, fatigue, injury etc is night and day.

And its obvious, when you look at it - teams in EUROPA struggle massively to finish consistently high domestically. Teams in CL do not.

CL is the virtuous circle. Europa is the vicious cycle.
 
I think with Europa the issue is the group as you say

And it comes down to travelling to places that are are as far away from home as is possible in Europe
 
Real likely to be looking for a new manager very soon after being hammered by Barca today. Fingers crossed they go all in for someone other than Poch.
 
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