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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Pirate55 said:
Please try reading your own posts before accusing others of not doing so. Where did you say "currently" .

Please would you now answer my question? Do we currently have a winning mentality? Yes or no?
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Yeah i do think we have a winning mentality, if we didn't i don't think we would have overcome the move to Wembley (for example), i don't think we'd have punched above our weight so long against sides which dramatically outspend us, i don't think we would have topped a CL group no one gave us much of a chance of getting out of - if we didn't have the right mentality we wouldnt be looking at a third consecutive CL appearence, we'd be bumbling around the EL places instead hoping to sneak in to the CL. We wouldnt see the drive and determination in our players to continually improve year in year out, week in week out - the fact some big games have not gone our way doesnt change all of the above, it doesn't mean we lose because we aren't mentally able we're in arguably the most competitive league in Europe and have 5 teams who all far outspend us challenging us for every trophy available - sometimes you just come up short on the day.

What we haven't got is winning experience as a team but it will come because we have the talent and mentality to keep going until we do.
 
StephenH said:
Butting in.

In this instance I would personally think "cultivating" never stops.
A team have won lots, thus 'have a winning mentality" but you keep "cultivating" to improve and maintain it.
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Undoubtedly true and to expand on that i would say that in order to win in the first place you must develop the required mentality long before the material success comes - which is currently where we are.
 
billyiddo said:
Yeah i do think we have a winning mentality, if we didn't i don't think we would have overcome the move to Wembley (for example), i don't think we'd have punched above our weight so long against sides which dramatically outspend us, i don't think we would have topped a CL group no one gave us much of a chance of getting out of - if we didn't have the right mentality we wouldnt be looking at a third consecutive CL appearence, we'd be bumbling around the EL places instead hoping to sneak in to the CL. We wouldnt see the drive and determination in our players to continually improve year in year out, week in week out - the fact some big games have not gone our way doesnt change all of the above, it doesn't mean we lose because we aren't mentally able we're in arguably the most competitive league in Europe and have 5 teams who all far outspend us challenging us for every trophy available - sometimes you just come up short on the day.

What we haven't got is winning experience as a team but it will come because we have the talent and mentality to keep going until we do.
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And this is the fundamental essence of our disagreement. You think we have a "winning mentality" because we win a lot of games. I think we win a lot of games because we have arguably the best ( or at least second best ) fully fit first team in the country. Where we have fallen short in the recent past is because, in my opinion, we lack the necessary mental fortitude and winning mentality to win the crucial "clutch " games at present.

While we are improving on this aspect year on year, and are helping to cultivate a WM, we won't have actually achieved a "winning mentality" unless and until we actually win something and put the serial chokers jibe fully to bed. We are still two stages away from this at the moment. First is to win some clutch games (Chelsea away and Man U) would be a great start in this respect.
 
billyiddo said:
Yeah i do think we have a winning mentality, if we didn't i don't think we would have overcome the move to Wembley (for example), i don't think we'd have punched above our weight so long against sides which dramatically outspend us, i don't think we would have topped a CL group no one gave us much of a chance of getting out of - if we didn't have the right mentality we wouldnt be looking at a third consecutive CL appearence, we'd be bumbling around the EL places instead hoping to sneak in to the CL. We wouldnt see the drive and determination in our players to continually improve year in year out, week in week out - the fact some big games have not gone our way doesnt change all of the above, it doesn't mean we lose because we aren't mentally able we're in arguably the most competitive league in Europe and have 5 teams who all far outspend us challenging us for every trophy available - sometimes you just come up short on the day.

What we haven't got is winning experience as a team but it will come because we have the talent and mentality to keep going until we do.
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But thats the thing - we always to date have ended up coming short in the Poch era and as youre talking about trophies its not about 'on the day' its about over the season.

Yes there are five other big sides going for the same titles as us and none of them have dominated because its such a high level being operated at, but they've all managed to win trophies in this period and Im not just talking about the odd one - excluding Liverpool who are in a very similar situation to us. You wouldnt find any of these teams making excuses for not winning anything, and that is why they have the edge right now. But the rate we are going at that will not be the case for much longer.....
 
StephenH said:
Butting in.

In this instance I would personally think "cultivating" never stops.
A team have won lots, thus 'have a winning mentality" but you keep "cultivating" to improve and maintain it.
Click to expand...

No arguments from me there. I agree cultivation should never stop. The question though, is whether we currently have a WM without having won anything.
 
harr1984 said:
But thats the thing - we always to date have ended up coming short in the Poch era and as youre talking about trophies its not about 'on the day' its about over the season.

Yes there are five other big sides going for the same titles as us and none of them have dominated because its such a high level being operated at, but they've all managed to win trophies in this period and Im not just talking about the odd one - excluding Liverpool who are in a very similar situation to us. You wouldnt find any of these teams making excuses for not winning anything, and that is why they have the edge right now. But the rate we are going at that will not be the case for much longer.....
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Fingers crossed!
 
billyiddo said:
Undoubtedly true and to expand on that i would say that in order to win in the first place you must develop the required mentality long before the material success comes - which is currently where we are.
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But in your previous post, you argued that we currently have the WM. Now you appear to be saying, we are on a journey to achieving it by saying this is "currently where we are" ... i.e. by definition " not there yet".
 
Pirate55 said:
And this is the fundamental essence of our disagreement. You think we have a "winning mentality" because we win a lot of games. I think we win a lot of games because we have arguably the best ( or at least second best ) fully fit first team in the country. Where we have fallen short in the recent past is because, in my opinion, we lack the necessary mental fortitude and winning mentality to win the crucial "clutch " games at present.

While we are improving on this aspect year on year, and are helping to cultivate a WM, we won't have actually achieved a "winning mentality" unless and until we actually win something and put the serial chokers jibe fully to bed. We are still two stages away from this at the moment. First is to win some clutch games (Chelsea away and Man U) would be a great start in this respect.
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I will have to pull out of this now because you can't understand what im saying - maybe im not explaining myself well but i don't know how to be any clearer - if after all these posts on the matter you are summising my position as :

You think we have a "winning mentality" because we win a lot of games.

Then i just don't think you're capable of understanding my point.
 
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Pirate55 said:
Not at all. Re your first paragraph, the games we lost prior to the Chelsea game were in fact key that season. Losing at home to Leicester and losing at Wet Spam effectively killed off our chase. If we had won both of those games, we would have been in poll position and a draw at Chelsea in those circumstances wouldnt have necessarily been a bad result.

However, by the time the Chelsea game came about we were in a position where we had to win all our remaining matches and hope Leicester slipped up.
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When we lost to Leicester there wasn't even a chase. Not to mention we were in year 2 of the project. So how you can call that a big game I do not know. And against Chelsea we showed immaturity not lack of fight, the latter of which would have been a sign of a team without a winning mentality.
 
As usual I think luck and probability gets underestimated.

Take the FA cup right now as an example. Right now the probability of us winning it is somewhere in the 20-35% range I would guess. No matter what the players and coaches do that number won't move much in the direction we want it to. Though there are things they can do to make it drop significantly.

What will happen is the post-hoc explanations from fans and the media related to terms like winning mentality. End up not winning and the story writes itself, end up on the winning side and the story writes itself.

But those stories won't actually be based on if Pochettino and the rest have done the right things to foster a winning mentality. They will mainly be based on if we had the luck on our side or not.

Our mentality seems very good. We're in a very good position. Based on our financial situation we can't ask for much more. Keep it up and sooner or later we're likely to get that bit of luck needed for our good mentality to be described as a winning mentality.
 
harr1984 said:
But thats the thing - we always to date have ended up coming short in the Poch era and as youre talking about trophies its not about 'on the day' its about over the season.

Yes there are five other big sides going for the same titles as us and none of them have dominated because its such a high level being operated at, but they've all managed to win trophies in this period and Im not just talking about the odd one - excluding Liverpool who are in a very similar situation to us. You wouldnt find any of these teams making excuses for not winning anything, and that is why they have the edge right now. But the rate we are going at that will not be the case for much longer.....
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What are you refering to here? Arsenal/United/City don't make excuses when they come up short? We do? Not sure what you're getting at there but who makes excuses at Spurs? Poch? The players? I don't thonk that's the case i think we usually shoulder our shortcomings quite well and usually give off the impression that we need to look to ourselves for improvement - especially so with Poch compared with the other big sides managers'
 
billyiddo said:
I said i think we will have gained/developed more as a team from our CL run this season than what will come were we to win the FA Cup.
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I see, I can agree with that but I wouldnt say thats definitely true when I think about the impact winning the FA Cup could have especially on those who are not that experienced - it could make them puff out their chest a bit more, stand that bit taller on the pitch with that bit more belief of being a winner. But lets be honest, who on earth has ever looked back on a team that hasnt won anything and said 'They have a great winning mentality?'

I think braineclipse sums it up well in saying we currently have a good (Id say very good) mentality, and we are gearing towards inheriting a true winning mentality and just need that little bit extra for it to come whether it simply be time/experience, luck or whatever....
 
harr1984 said:
Yes there are five other big sides going for the same titles as us and none of them have dominated because its such a high level being operated at, but they've all managed to win trophies in this period and Im not just talking about the odd one - excluding Liverpool who are in a very similar situation to us. You wouldnt find any of these teams making excuses for not winning anything, and that is why they have the edge right now. But the rate we are going at that will not be the case for much longer.....
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I envy you not ever having the misfortune to listen to Mournho, Wenger, Guardiola or Klopp after their team has lost a game.
 
milo said:
I envy you not ever having the misfortune to listen to Mournho, Wenger, Guardiola or Klopp after their team has lost a game.
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Sorry I was talking about fans and the standards they're used to - They are used to their teams winning thing and anything less isnt good enough. I actually think I went off on a tangent there and not really relative....
 
harr1984 said:
Sorry I was talking about fans and the standards they're used to - They are used to their teams winning thing and anything less isnt good enough. I actually think I went off on a tangent there and not really relative....
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I've certainly heard fans of the rich clubs make excuses but agree that is probably a different discussion. Continued success certainly changes the fans' mindset.
 
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