Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[milo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/976488620079988736

Eriksen says shhhhhh.

Words are cheap. He could've been practising corners rather than slow dancing with Moura.

 

[harr1984]

Words are cheap. He could've been practising corners rather than slow dancing with Moura.

Is he off corners now? I could be wrong, but Im sure I only ever see Davies and Trippier take them....

 

[Pirate55]

They’re only not important now because we didn’t lose them, had we lost them it would have been mentioned along with the random Leicester, Emirates Marketing Project, Arsenal away games that apparently prove we haven’t got the winning mentality.

By the way I’m not saying we do have a winning mentality now. I’m just responding to Pirate where he listed a random list of games (basically any we have lost so far) to prove a lack of Winning mentality. I picked a succession of games where leading up to it it was widely described as defining our season and we got great results in. Why is that not proof of a “good” or “improving” mentality, but Leicester away at some random point not even half way through the season some how more proof to you?

Direct question to you Harr, why does Leicester, Arsenal and City at random times in the first half of the season count for more than the more recent run of Utd, Pool, Arse and Juve?

The City, Arsenal and Leicester games were not as you describe them random losses in my opinion. They were all in fact indicative of our lack of mental fortitude. Lets take them one at a time.

City. No disgrace to lose to the runaway leaders on their own patch However, it was the manner of the defeat that was truly disappointing. We really never even came close to offering them any sort of competition that day and we were never at the races. Furthermore, to give away the opening goal from a corner to an unmarked titch on our own six yard box, was equally concerning and speaks to a vital lack of concentration.

Arsenal. At the time of the game, we were currently in good form and they were going through a hiatus. The talk before the game was all about the balance of power in north London shifting. However on the day, the Goons raised their level and played with more intensity than they had done this season. We were simply blown away and were second best on the day in every department. Particularly galling to lose to our fiercest rivals without ever matching them for fight and conviction.

Leicester. For some reason, since they won the League, their supporters have taken a virulent dislike to all things Spurs. Spurred on by a baying crowd, the Leicester team played out of their skins and again we couldn't cope. To them the game was like a cup final and just like at Wet Spam in the previous two seasons, we were out-fought.

To lose is one thing, and any team can have the odd off day or be incredibly unlucky ( the Krull Saudi Sportswashing Machine game comes to mind) but when other teams raise their game against us, we have too often been found lacking. That is why I don't believe we yet have a truly winning mentality. I sincerely hope that over the Chelsea and Man U games, we will not just "talk the talk" but in fact "walk the walk". To win those key games against teams which will be super motivated to beat us, will go a long way to showing we are getting there.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

City away we deserved to lose

Leicester we battered but it was a game without our shooting boots but not a BIG game

Arse away was their best performance but it was after intentional where they had 2 of their 11 go and we had everyone go. No confidence they haven’t had a performance like it since as they have never been so fresh against a team so tired by comparison

We also had half for Alli and Kane and the reason they won was some awful official calls

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

The City, Arsenal and Leicester games were not as you describe them random losses in my opinion. They were all in fact indicative of our lack of mental fortitude. Lets take them one at a time.

City. No disgrace to lose to the runaway leaders on their own patch However, it was the manner of the defeat that was truly disappointing. We really never even came close to offering them any sort of competition that day and we were never at the races. Furthermore, to give away the opening goal from a corner to an unmarked titch on our own six yard box, was equally concerning and speaks to a vital lack of concentration.

Arsenal. At the time of the game, we were currently in good form and they were going through a hiatus. The talk before the game was all about the balance of power in north London shifting. However on the day, the Goons raised their level and played with more intensity than they had done this season. We were simply blown away and were second best on the day in every department. Particularly galling to lose to our fiercest rivals without ever matching them for fight and conviction.

Leicester. For some reason, since they won the League, their supporters have taken a virulent dislike to all things Spurs. Spurred on by a baying crowd, the Leicester team played out of their skins and again we couldn't cope. To them the game was like a cup final and just like at Wet Spam in the previous two seasons, we were out-fought.

To lose is one thing, and any team can have the odd off day or be incredibly unlucky ( the Krull Saudi Sportswashing Machine game comes to mind) but when other teams raise their game against us, we have too often been found lacking. That is why I don't believe we yet have a truly winning mentality. I sincerely hope that over the Chelsea and Man U games, we will not just "talk the talk" but in fact "walk the walk". To win those key games against teams which will be super motivated to beat us, will go a long way to showing we are getting there.

I don’t really agree with your analysis of the importance of those games, but anyway, why would you say those 3 are more important than the the 4 consecutive, more recent, results we got v utd, Pool, arse and Juve away (just the away game, I know we threw the home game in 5 minutes).

 

[billyiddo]

So only City have a winning mentality by the sounds of it as im sure similar lists could be made for Chelsea United Arsenal and Liverpool from this season alone, nevermind cherry picking from 3 seasons worth of games - but then they got beat away to a league 2 side in the cup where perhaps the pressure of the quadruple and a home side playing up to the occassion cost caused them to fold - so maybe no one has a winning mentality

 

[alekaras]

Before you throw around such slights, what exactly is so hard to understand by the statement that a winning mentality actually comes from winning not experience gained from losing?

@billyiddo would have probably answered this by the time I get through this thread, but no one said that winning isn't key to building a winning mentality. Winning against Real and Dortmund are key. Beating United and Arsenal and even drawing at Lollerpool this year when it was imperative we got those results are also key. Drawing at Juve when we were 2 goals down within 10 mins is key. But winning a FA Cup by beating Rochdale, Newport, Wimbledon, and Swansea is not. It's, at best, a culmination of a winning mentality, but it is not what creates it.

 

[Raziel]

So only City have a winning mentality by the sounds of it as im sure similar lists could be made for Chelsea United Arsenal and Liverpool from this season alone, nevermind cherry picking from 3 seasons worth of games - but then they got beat away to a league 2 side in the cup where perhaps the pressure of the quadruple and a home side playing up to the occassion cost caused them to fold - so maybe no one has a winning mentality

This is the main part of my core disagreement with this winners/bottlers brick that English people seem fascinated with

- It is not a level playing field, talent, size of squad, injuries, etc. all have huge impacts on your ability to "win". The idea that no one in PL but City has a winning mentality is idiotic at best. And since we have finished above every club in the PL at least once in last 3 seasons, did all the other big clubs (including City) bottle it? how did City go from not having a winning mentality last season to "winners" this season? ohh ... 300M worth of squad improvements .. yes ... it wasn't that at all, it was Pep suddenly finding his winner's mentality again ...
- City's rise from a nothing club that was in the 3rd division recently should highlight the stupidity of this argument, they didn't "change their mentality" they spent 1.5B quid. I'll tell you how to make Spur's winners tomorrow, go buy Bale & Hazard ... done ...
- Picking a single game as point is flimflam, every team (Barca/Real/City/Bayern/PSG) lose the odd game they shouldn't, doesn't make them not winners.

 

[milo]

The City, Arsenal and Leicester games were not as you describe them random losses in my opinion. They were all in fact indicative of our lack of mental fortitude. Lets take them one at a time.

City. No disgrace to lose to the runaway leaders on their own patch However, it was the manner of the defeat that was truly disappointing. We really never even came close to offering them any sort of competition that day and we were never at the races. Furthermore, to give away the opening goal from a corner to an unmarked titch on our own six yard box, was equally concerning and speaks to a vital lack of concentration.

Arsenal. At the time of the game, we were currently in good form and they were going through a hiatus. The talk before the game was all about the balance of power in north London shifting. However on the day, the Goons raised their level and played with more intensity than they had done this season. We were simply blown away and were second best on the day in every department. Particularly galling to lose to our fiercest rivals without ever matching them for fight and conviction.

Leicester. For some reason, since they won the League, their supporters have taken a virulent dislike to all things Spurs. Spurred on by a baying crowd, the Leicester team played out of their skins and again we couldn't cope. To them the game was like a cup final and just like at Wet Spam in the previous two seasons, we were out-fought.

To lose is one thing, and any team can have the odd off day or be incredibly unlucky ( the Krull Saudi Sportswashing Machine game comes to mind) but when other teams raise their game against us, we have too often been found lacking. That is why I don't believe we yet have a truly winning mentality. I sincerely hope that over the Chelsea and Man U games, we will not just "talk the talk" but in fact "walk the walk". To win those key games against teams which will be super motivated to beat us, will go a long way to showing we are getting there.

I know that I have pointed this out to you before but you are really prone to the Texas sharpshooter falacy.

 

[thfcsteff]

I know that I have pointed this out to you before but you are really prone to the Texas sharpshooter falacy.

So true.



Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[thfcsteff]

https://twitter.com/x/status/976488620079988736

Eriksen says shhhhhh.

I think some here should be helpful, offer their unqualified expertise in these fields, and write to the club and Eriksen to explain that they cannot use those two words in public until they win a meaningful match.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[alekaras]

We have won big matches recently and are getting better at them IMHO. The Chelsea matches coming up will tell me a lot about our progression on this front.

The outcome alone won't tell us much. The performance, however, will. If we take the game to them and play like we're the home team but end up losing to a jammy goal, I think that too will say a lot about our progression, even though we may not have come out on top.

 

[milo]

The outcome alone won't tell us much. The performance, however, will. If we take the game to them and play like we're the home team but end up losing to a jammy goal, I think that too will say a lot about our progression, even though we may not have come out on top.

Quite. Football is a game of fine margine where the best team frequently doesn't win.

 

[alekaras]

While I don't disagree with what Poch says here, he is still saying that winning consistently in the PL and Champions League HELPS to create a winning mentality, in and of itself alone, is not sufficient to ACHIEVE a winning mentality.

Question: Do we currently have a winning mentality? I would answer that we do not yet have that.

Let's look at the evidence. In three big games this season, we really froze. Arsenal, City and Leicester away, we were poor and deserved to lose. Even games where we performed well, United away (lost) , Liverpool away (drew), Chelsea home (lost) and Juve home (lost) - we didn't win. We still don't have the killer instinct to take us over the line in the biggest games.

Look at previous seasons in games we really needed a winning mentality to win clutch games - Chelsea in League Cup final (lost), Chelsea in FA Cup Semis (lost), Chelsea in battle of the Bridge (drew when we had to win) Wet Spam ( lost away ) Leicester in their Champions season when we lost at home in the very definition of a six pointer - even losses to Southampton at home and Saudi Sportswashing Machine away when we needed a single point from either of those games to finish second.

Yes we have a great team who play some absolutely breathtaking football at times. Yes, we are capable of some outstanding one-off results - like Pool at home and Real and Borrusia in the Champions League. Yes, we are improving year on year under Poch. Yes, going unbeaten at home last season was a great achievement. Poch has undoubtedly done a brilliant job.

However, do we yet have a truly winning mentality or are we more like flat track bullies like Graham Hick in cricket or Colin Montgomery, widely regarded as the best golfer of his generation not to win a Major. Bournemouth was the first time this season in the PL that we have come from a goal down to win - not exactly the best credentials to demonstrate a winning mentality.

We have two really massive games coming up - Chelsea away and Man U in the FA Cup semi finals. These games will go a long way to showing if we do indeed have a winning mentality. The ultimate step to demonstrate we have actually ACHIEVED a winning mentality ( rather than just wishfully talk about it ) will of course be to win a major trophy. After all, success breeds success. Let's all hope it isn't that far away.

The only game where we really froze was Woolwich. City too, to an extent. But we battered Leicester and were unlucky to come out on the losing end. As for the other games you mentioned, they were all games that we came close to winning. Does a team with a winning mentality win ALL its big games? I don't think so. They win some, they lose some. But they win enough to be in contention for the league whereas you make it sound like "winning" team NEVER lose a big game. And we have won our share of big games, or not lost them: that 4-game run against Woolwich, Lollerpool, Yanited, and Juve, which you seem to have forgotten, showed me a team with a winning mentality.

 

[parklane1]

Funny thing is, all these rivals that are supposed to have this amazing winning mentality have generally finished up as also rans WAY more often than they've succeeded in winning trophies.

For example, over the past five seasons, each has competed for up to 20 trophies apiece: CL and/or Uefa Cup, PL, FA Cup & League Cup. Here's how many times they've been successful.

Arsenal 3 trophies won out of 20 competitions entered
Chelsea 4 out of 19
Liverpool 0 out of 19
Man C 4 out of 20
Man U 4 out of 20

So basically even our most successful rivals fail upwards of four times more often than they succeed. What sort of winning mentality is that?

I get the point you are trying to make, however how many games in those trophies have we competed for in the last five seasons? and how many did we end up winning?. a lot less then those others so they have a better winning mentality then us then? Bit of a silly post mate

 

[thfcsteff]

I get the point you are trying to make, however how many games in those trophies have we competed for in the last five seasons? and how many did we end up winning?. a lot less then those others so they have a better winning mentality then us then? Bit of a silly post mate

An utter lack of context.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Pirate55]

A point i tried to make a week or so back - unless you win the league there will always be a game that comes around that officially puts you out of the reckoning, 2-2 Chelsea battle of the bridge game as a case in point - what about the games leading up to that game which we won to keep us in the hunt until that point?

Mentality just seems to be a catch all reason to blame on any defeat that comes our way - something easy to pin it all on rather the multitude of reasons that cause a game to go one way or the other. Someone was trying to claim a league cup game v West Ham as an example that proved our weak mentality yet i dont think for a second all the games in knockout football we have won get counted as signs of a strong mentality - we have been in two semi finals and a final under Poch so far so there's a good few one off games there we have won.

What about our CL group games this season? Was in a bit of a group of death so any dropped points would be costly - needing to win away Dortmund to top the group and avoid the group winners in the next round and all the other permutations and pressures each game brings... all that is forgotten because we lost to Juventus - had we beaten them does thst mean they are the ones who don't have a winning mentality?

Seems to me a few posters are confusing the act of winning with the mentality required to do so

Not at all. Re your first paragraph, the games we lost prior to the Chelsea game were in fact key that season. Losing at home to Leicester and losing at Wet Spam effectively killed off our chase. If we had won both of those games, we would have been in poll position and a draw at Chelsea in those circumstances wouldnt have necessarily been a bad result.

However, by the time the Chelsea game came about we were in a position where we had to win all our remaining matches and hope Leicester slipped up.

 

[Pirate55]

A “winning mentality” is either bought via experience or developed via a guide/manager who a club buys into. Four years ago, we struggled to win any big games. We struggled to consistently win games. Yeah, Harry did OK but he had two of the greatest players in the world and basically told them to run the show. He did not really work in mentality, self-expectation, the necessary details in aptitude that ensure you follow big CL games by winning your next at (say) Bournemouth. Pochettino has changed the mentality around the club. Fact. And Pochettino is cultivating the final steps necessary for a winning mentality at our club. If that means the odd talented player who requires more money than on offer must go because they cannot put their daily job first? Great. Off they go. But how anyone can question the progression and growth of this “winning mentality” remains baffling.

What it looks like to me is that we are all arguing about when that “policy” matures into producing results. I would be quite happy to wait until next season providing we achieve top 4 this. The cup would be great.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Hello....do I detect a changing of your position? I thought you and Billy were arguing that we currently have a "winning mentality"?

No one as far as I can tell and certainly not me, would argue that Poch is not successfully "cultivating the final steps necessary for a winning mentality" but the simple fact remains that we aren't there yet. Context my friend, context!

Anyhow, glad you are coming round to my way of thinking

 

[Spur of the moment]

I get the point you are trying to make, however how many games in those trophies have we competed for in the last five seasons? and how many did we end up winning?. a lot less then those others so they have a better winning mentality then us then? Bit of a silly post mate

Just a bit of perspective mate. The at the end was to signify it was not to be taken too seriously - but maybe you missed that?

 

[harr1984]

Hello....do I detect a changing of your position? I thought you and Billy were arguing that we currently have a "winning mentality"?

No one as far as I can tell and certainly not me, would argue that Poch is not successfully "cultivating the final steps necessary for a winning mentality" but the simple fact remains that we aren't there yet. Context my friend, context!

Anyhow, glad you are coming round to my way of thinking

I honestly think Steff is on the same page as us, when there is no true definition to something - like the phrase 'world class' for example there are always going to be slight differentials in definition but think we all see the change in mentality that is edging us towards true glory years...