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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Robspur12 said:
It is fans who dress up a bit of knowledge as coaching fact. They assert if Poch had done X the result would have been Y as if they know the ins and outs of the squad better than the man who works with them day in day out.
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Spot on. Just because you know(have seen) that something that is wrong, dosen't mean that you what to do to make it right.
 
P.D. said:
I think City made us play so poorly though, they pressed so high and well, often having 2/3 players around us so we couldn't get out. Yes we could have played long but the press would have been the same.

They also have serious pace all across the team (Walker, Sane, Sterling, De Bruyne, Aguero, Jesus) which utterly destroyed us. They had so much movement with players running left and right that we simply couldn't handle it.

Obviously we also didn't play well, Dembele got totally outdone in the middle and Winks was poor and offered no protection but I think their pressure forced us into mistakes.
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Around our own box I agree with you. But what about when our players had a bit of time and space and still managed to just toe poke it back to them, or when there was an opportunity to make a decent pass or cross into the box and we just kicked it out or to their keeper. Also, we passed it so slowly, almost looked as though the grass was twice as long as what the players were used to. I reckon I could show you a dozen times when one of our players was under no pressure but made an iffy pass either back to them or only just reaching a team mate and therefore inviting pressure.

Then there's the general chasing, working back etc.

And I haven't even got to letting Gundogan wander into the box unmarked to bend down and head in to our goal for that all important first goal of the match. Were we mesmerised then?

I don't think a team can make you play poor. They can play excellent and we can respond with whatever standards we can reach and whatever effort we want to give. On this occasion, we were poor on both.
 
Bullet said:
City have a huge weak spot - Mangala, Otamendi and Delph. We could have sat deep and then launched it long to 3 attackers against those 3... bypass the midfield, don't play City at their game, just sit deep and deny all the space... then spring 3 vs 3.

But Poch wanted to play football against those other 7 fine footballers of City... a very dangerous and over-optimistic approach IMO.
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Completely agree. My biggest annoyance of the whole game, I posted this in the match thread after about 15 mins. Rio called it out at HT. The 'Madrid method' would have gone better I think.
 
Robspur12 said:
It's not the questioning of the coach per se for me that is a problem. It is the manner in which it is done that irritates me. Question him all you want there'll be no issue with me. However,

It is fans who dress up a bit of knowledge as coaching fact. They assert if Poch had done X the result would have been Y as if they know the ins and outs of the squad better than the man who works with them day in day out. It's the belief that fans can see things as glaringly obvious but the coach can't. I call it the "Alan Shearer condition" where people sit and pontificate to managers from the comfort of their sofas but when they are called to put their money where their mouth is, they crash and burn and suddenly realise football management is not as easy as they thought it was.

It is the failure to give proper consideration of context when judging Spurs under Poch. You know if Atletico can win the Spanish League and Leicester can win the EPL then Spurs should be winning it too. Then so should Everton, so should Aston Villa, so should frigging Liverpool. But guess what they are not. Therefore even when we finish second with a points total we have never been close to in my nearly 40 years of supporting Spurs, better than it took to win the league the previous season, it is still not considered good enough because he hasn't won a trophy.

It is fans who flip from the ecstatic when we win to the verge of clinical depression when we lose - with nothing in the middle.

It is the lack of respect shown in the tone of some posts for the best coach we have had at this club in years.

There rant over. Perhaps it's my age that I am getting less patient. Believe me I want success as much as anyone.
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There are some very good posts in this thread and IMO this is one of the best ( especially the bolded bit) FIFA, and all the other kids games have spawned a generation of " experts" who think they know the way to play in the REAL world is as easy as pushing a button on a abacus, when in all reality i would think some of them have never kicked a ball in anger to start with.
 
parklane1 said:
There are some very good posts in this thread and IMO this is one of the best ( especially the bolded bit) FIFA, and all the other kids games have spawned a generation of " experts" who think they know the way to play in the REAL world is as easy as pushing a button on a abacus, when in all reality i would think some of them have never kicked a ball in anger to start with.
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Robspur12 said:
It is fans who dress up a bit of knowledge as coaching fact. They assert if Poch had done X the result would have been Y as if they know the ins and outs of the squad better than the man who works with them day in day out. It's the belief that fans can see things as glaringly obvious but the coach can't. I call it the "Alan Shearer condition" where people sit and pontificate to managers from the comfort of their sofas but when they are called to put their money where their mouth is, they crash and burn and suddenly realise football management is not as easy as they thought it was.
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Whenever this sort of 'football is more complex than the damn kids these days are making it out to be' logic is trotted out (usually by old-timers, although of course some of the present generation think that too), I'm always reminded of what the manager of Wolfsburg had to say a little while ago. To cut a long story short, a football tactics website did a tactical analysis of a Wolfsburg game, and accurately, scientifically broke down the complex tactics and selection criteria being used - the shadow centre-halves tracking wingers into dead zones, the defensive midfielders dropping into an inverted triangle to shield twenty metres of territory in the critical 50-60-minute mark, passing triangles and angular motion taking the opponents on the blind side with trigonometric precision, percentage-base fitness levels tracking player introductions and withdrawals, the whole nine yards.

And then a journalist actually brought this analysis to the attention of the Wolfsburg manager. And his memorably gruff response was (essentially)....

'...I'm supposed to be thinking of all this when I'm managing a game? News to me.'

Turns out, his thought process was far simpler than the pundits preaching how very, *very* complex football is made it out to be. And that's what always comes to mind when people wave their canes about and growl about kids and 'abacus games making everyone a pundit - they mistake the game as being more complex than it actually is, which is also a serious error in the *other* direction. And it always makes me chuckle.
 
harr1984 said:
What is it with questioning our coach, why does it rub some people up the wrong way so much?! Just because he's a good coach doesnt mean he doesnt get things wrong and cant be questioned. He hasnt won anything and hasnt earned the right to be treated like a messiah who can do no wrong just because he has progressed us - It doesnt mean people who criticise or ask questions dont respect what he has done for us, or in my case love him for being our coach.

Ive said this several times now, it doesnt have to be about changing the personnel if you dont like that argument. He should have changed the way we played, as was clear early on City's pressing was too good for us to play out from the back. Noone is blaming Trippier for us being 1-0 down, but he was on toast and that needed to be looked at. We have been poor for the majority of this season and there is nothing wrong with questioning Poch's tactics. Much poorer teams than us have gone there and been far more solid, if you want Poch to take all the plaudits for when we are doing well then he sure as hell has to be questioned when we aren't doing well.....
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It's honestly pretty weird, mate. Any criticism of anything he gets wrong, and immediately, it's straight to 'Oh, woe is me, this sickens me, how could you even think such a thing, Poch deserves only respect, he's literally perfect, this makes me sick, you people are fickle, you're OTT, you're this, you're that....' . No in-between, either - anything other than 100% 'Poch is perfect, he did literally nothing wrong', and it's straight to the barricades as if he's a game away from being sacked.

It's mystifying. Almost no one has made the point that Poch should go, or that he's anything but secure in his position - personally, I'd be absolutely fine with him going all the way to 2022, and I'd be content with him carrying on even if we finish 6th-10th throughout that time because he would definitely keep the ship secure until the finances shape up. But, if I voice my definite disappointment at his cavalier approach to the cups (which is rich, in my opinion, given that he hasn't won a single one yet), it's straight to the 'oh, you 'orrible man' barricades. If I voice my utter befuddlement at an obvious tactical error, it's straight to the barricades. If I mention how strangely hateful he is towards the idea of early substitutions, it's straight to the barricades.

It's overhyping a threat that doesn't exist - and maybe willing it into existence, because if people accuse the folks criticizing Poch of histrionics while being histrionic themselves, eventually people will stop listening when the *actual* discontent arises (if it does).
 
DubaiSpur said:
It's honestly pretty weird, mate. Any criticism of anything he gets wrong, and immediately, it's straight to 'Oh, woe is me, this sickens me, how could you even think such a thing, Poch deserves only respect, he's literally perfect, this makes me sick, you people are fickle, you're OTT, you're this, you're that....' . No in-between, either - anything other than 400% 'Poch is perfect, he did literally nothing wrong', and it's straight to the barricades as if he's a game away from being sacked.

It's mystifying. Almost no one has made the point that Poch should go, or that he's anything but secure in his position - personally, I'd be absolutely fine with him going all the way to 2022, and I'd be content with him carrying on even if we finish 6th-10th throughout that time because he would definitely keep the ship secure until the finances shape up. But, if I voice my definite disappointment at his cavalier approach to the cups (which is rich, in my opinion, given that he hasn't won a single one yet), it's straight to the 'oh, you 'orrible man' barricades. If I voice my utter befuddlement at an obvious tactical error, it's straight to the barricades. If I mention how strangely hateful he is towards the idea of early substitutions, it's straight to the barricades.

It's overhyping a threat that doesn't exist - and maybe willing it into existence, because if people accuse the folks criticizing Poch of histrionics while being histrionic themselves, eventually people will stop listening when the *actual* discontent arises (if it does).
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Calm down man it's still only Monday
 
Gazza said:
Calm down man it's still only Monday
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Norman-leon-35112845-245-200.gif


Dunno where you're getting that from. :p
 
DubaiSpur said:
Whenever this sort of 'football is more complex than the damn kids these days are making it out to be' logic is trotted out (usually by old-timers, although of course some of the present generation think that too), I'm always reminded of what the manager of Wolfsburg had to say a little while ago. To cut a long story short, a football tactics website did a tactical analysis of a Wolfsburg game, and accurately, scientifically broke down the complex tactics and selection criteria being used - the shadow centre-halves tracking wingers into dead zones, the defensive midfielders dropping into an inverted triangle to shield twenty metres of territory in the critical 50-60-minute mark, passing triangles and angular motion taking the opponents on the blind side with trigonometric precision, percentage-base fitness levels tracking player introductions and withdrawals, the whole nine yards.

And then a journalist actually brought this analysis to the attention of the Wolfsburg manager. And his memorably gruff response was (essentially)....

'...I'm supposed to be thinking of all this when I'm managing a game? News to me.'

Turns out, his thought process was far simpler than the pundits preaching how very, *very* complex football is made it out to be. And that's what always comes to mind when people wave their canes about and growl about kids and 'abacus games making everyone a pundit - they mistake the game as being more complex than it actually is, which is also a serious error in the *other* direction. And it always makes me chuckle.
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Thank you for that singular anecdote. Does it negate all the tactical experts who analyse games and talk to coaches about the specifics that go into preparing for a match? Or was Harry a genius when he told Pav to 'just fcuking run about'?

I think part of the discussion that's going on here is whether MOST of us on this (and those on other forums) can make better football decisions during a game than Poch. Perhaps he had a valid reason for leaving Trippier on vs Sane that reflects a longer term intention? Perhaps Poch know more about he mentalities of the players the works with day in and day out than we do? Perhaps.

I'm not saying he's infallible. I'm not saying he never makes mistakes or can improve (I'm guessing he wouldn't either). But what I have seen is that he's the best manager we've had in decades (even better than Timmeh), and this is the best squad we've had in decades.

And perhaps Wolfsburg would be higher than 12th in the Bundesliga (and won more than 3 of their 17 games) if their head coach could think about shape and tactics when he's managing a game.
 
Bit of realism please guys.
Is porch perfect? no
Is he the best manager we've had in a lot of our fans lifetimes? absolutely
Poch is a big boy and I'm sure by reading some of his comments he's very open to criticism knowing as fans we want the best, but on the other hand come on guys wasn't that long ago we had the ginger pele and tarok playing every week flirting with relegation every other season. We all want to succeed and i think with most its a real FEAR that we have got to such a great position and we are going to throw it away. The way city are performing right now I can almost guarantee there are even united city and liverpool fans out there feeling in a similar position to us right now.
 
90291Spur said:
Thank you for that singular anecdote. Does it negate all the
tactical experts who analyse games and talk to coaches about the specifics that go into preparing for a match?
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So now all the tactical 'experts' and pundits on Sky are worth listening to? Because, believe me, they have nothing good to say about what happened on the weekend either - no excuses for Poch in that direction, so if we were apparently executing this enormously complex tactical 64D Ludo, we got it 100% wrong.

90291Spur said:
Or was Harry a genius when he told Pav to 'just fcuking run about'?
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Didn't Harry end up getting us our first top-level European run since 1962? Didn't Harry end up being our most successful manager of the Premier League era in terms of league positions until Poch? Probably a good deal of genius in that.

If you think I'm going to be critical of Harry, mate, you're dead wrong. I'm still more fond of him than most on here (or so it seems) - and I think he did a much, much better job than people give him credit for. Sometimes, you don't need a tactical fiend with fifty different files on the opposition winger's bowel movements the preceding Friday. Sometimes, you really do need someone who can just tell the lads to go out and be the players they believe themselves to be. Harry was that man - in spades.

90291Spur said:
I think part of the discussion that's going on here is whether MOST of us on this (and those on other forums) can make better football decisions during a game than Poch. Perhaps he had a valid reason for leaving Trippier on vs Sane that reflects a longer term intention? Perhaps Poch know more about he mentalities of the players the works with day in and day out than we do? Perhaps.
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If there is a 'longer-term' intention behind letting Trippier get ripped apart and nearly single-handedly concede the entire game (and three goals, and about a hundred chances) down the right-hand side, it's a misplaced goddamn priority, imo. And I struggle to see any possible intentions behind that.

90291Spur said:
I'm not saying he's infallible. I'm not saying he never makes mistakes or can improve (I'm guessing he wouldn't either). But what I have seen is that he's the best manager we've had in decades (even better than Timmeh), and this is the best squad we've had in decades.
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Best manager we've had in decades can still make obvious mistakes. Best squad we've had in decades can still collapse or wobble. None of it invalidates criticisms based on glaringly obvious errors, imo. And believe me, if people go the full hog and say that criticism equals a desire to see him sacked, than I can go the other direction and say that there are apparently plenty of people who really do think he's absolutely infallible and can't make any mistakes or improve in any way whatsoever.

90291Spur said:
And perhaps Wolfsburg would be higher than 12th in the Bundesliga (and won more than 3 of their 17 games) if their head coach could think about shape and tactics when he's managing a game.
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I think it was an older coach, not this one. Which one it is escapes me, but I'm sure that man had a fairly good career as a whole - you don't get to the top of football (and the Bundesliga is assuredly part of that 0.1% strata) without being damn good in general, tactics or no.
 
DubaiSpur said:
So now all the tactical 'experts' and pundits on Sky are worth listening to? Because, believe me, they have nothing good to say about what happened on the weekend either - no excuses for Poch in that direction, so if we were apparently executing this enormously complex tactical 64D Ludo, we got it 400% wrong.



Didn't Harry end up getting us our first top-level European run since 1962? Didn't Harry end up being our most successful manager of the Premier League era in terms of league positions until Poch? Probably a good deal of genius in that.

If you think I'm going to be critical of Harry, mate, you're dead wrong. I'm still more fond of him than most on here (or so it seems) - and I think he did a much, much better job than people give him credit for. Sometimes, you don't need a tactical fiend with fifty different files on the opposition winger's bowel movements the preceding Friday. Sometimes, you really do need someone who can just tell the lads to go out and be the players they believe themselves to be. Harry was that man - in spades.



If there is a 'longer-term' intention behind letting Trippier get ripped apart and nearly single-handedly concede the entire game (and three goals, and about a hundred chances) down the right-hand side, it's a misplaced goddamn priority, imo. And I struggle to see any possible intentions behind that.



Best manager we've had in decades can still make obvious mistakes. Best squad we've had in decades can still collapse or wobble. None of it invalidates criticisms based on glaringly obvious errors, imo. And believe me, if people go the full hog and say that criticism equals a desire to see him sacked, than I can go the other direction and say that there are apparently plenty of people who really do think he's absolutely infallible and can't make any mistakes or improve in any way whatsoever.



I think it was an older coach, not this one. Which one it is escapes me, but I'm sure that man had a fairly good career as a whole - you don't get to the top of football (and the Bundesliga is assuredly part of that 0.1% strata) without being damn good in general, tactics or no.
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Fantastic picking apart of my post. Top notch. There is simply no discussing anything with you without everything being picked apart (brilliantly, with Redknapp-esque genius). Thanks. You have well and truly changed my mind, and consider every one of your genius post liked 17 times by me.
 
90291Spur said:
Fantastic picking apart of my post. Top notch. There is simply no discussing anything with you without everything being picked apart (brilliantly, with Redknapp-esque genius). Thanks. You have well and truly changed my mind, and consider every one of your genius post liked 17 times by me.
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Always glad to help.
 
nayenezgani said:
Forgive the brevity, but I wonder if you actually know what 'Happy' is?
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My memory's a bit wonky at the best of times, but, if I recall correctly, you were the one whose first thought after a victory a while back was 'where was DubaiSpur?', correct? I think after the Dortmund game - your very first thought was wondering why I hadn't popped in yet, and your insinuation was that I only showed up whenever we were doing badly for whatever reason.

Yes, it was you - going by the forum search, anyway. I posted this then -

http://www.glory-glory.co.uk/community/threads/mauricio-pochettino.6336/page-528#post-961603

...and got no reply then. So I'll just say this - I know what 'happy' is. I also know that my vision of being 'happy' involves more than just rushing post-match to score points over other posters for reasons that are utterly beyond me. If that's your weird definition of happiness, count me out of it, mate.
 
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