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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

No I didn't. Wanyama, Janssen, and Nkoudou were very much a part of the balanced squad that I presented in my original post. Poch played Wanyama over Winks in our first three matches, because VW is a good player and is rightly ahead of HW in the pecking order. Simple.

Again, it's not a simple matter of picking one thing or another. I'm not against buying new senior pros, just as I'm not against blooding promising youngsters. I'm only concerned about striking a balance in the squad. And all I was saying is that I don't think we are that far away from striking a pretty good balance. In my original post, I actually advocated buying one more attacking midfielder like Isco or Zaha to bolster the squad.

Of course I am not saying that Winks should be our every week starting CM this season. But I like the idea of him being our 4th or 5th choice CM. Same goes for Carter-Vickers and Onomah. I'm not saying they should start every match and play 38 games per season. However, if Poch thinks they are up to starting some cup games and starting the odd Prem game here and there, then I am for that. Again, that's just my opinion, but I'm also someone whose favorite part of football is watching our homegrown lads come through.

Also, I don't think "Levy being tight" (which he often is) is the reason we didn't sign Wijnaldum. I just think it's something they considered, and ultimately they decided that an incredibly expensive deal for a decent mid-table player wasn't a good investment.

As far as Wimmer, I think if you go back and look, most of the narrative around that signing was "Ughhhh Levy. Another cheap, unknown player who isn't ready yet." I'm impressed that you knew so much about him, as I had never even heard his name before we were linked, haha. That's all I was saying.


Well, our essential disagreement is in what the balance of the squad should be. You say you like the idea of Winks being our '4th or 5th' choice CM. Well, let me put it another way - would you like Winks to be the direct backup to Dembele? Because that's what we presently have, given that Wanyama was meant to be Dier's backup. Same for Onomah - would you like Onomah to be the direct backup to Alli/Eriksen/Kane/whoever plays in the hole from our first-eleven? Because that's what we've got at the moment. CCV is a bit of a different situation - he is probably our backup for Toby in the same sense that Wimmer is the backup for Verts...but it's a low risk situation, because Dier can shuffle across and do the job if CCV doesn't prove ready.

The discord lies in what you envision the roles of a 4th choice CM, 2nd choice AM or 4th choice CB to be. Personally, I visualize the squad as two sets of eleven plus 3 others (a goalie and two varied players). And, generally, such a utilisation of the squad will see the 2nd choice CM/AM/CB for their respective roles play an awful lot more than cup games and the odd Prem game here and there. And, in that situation, it's going to be a major, major drop in quality between our first eleven and what we presently have as backups in key areas of the field. And I'm not sure that's acceptable, is all.

Re: Wijnaldum, it's difficult to square that we collectively decided against Wijnaldum when (in his own words) he went to Poch's house and Poch sold him on the role he would play, the improvement he would undergo and so on. Why would he do that if he had no intention of signing Wijnaldum due to his price?

And as for Wimmer, nope, I knew he was a Bundesliga CB, and given that I have a soft spot for Koln, I knew that he had *some* role to play in them finishing in a respectable mid-table position after being promoted, although I never found the time to see them play myself. Personally, I found Wimmer to be an alright signing - by the time I'd digested the fact that he'd signed, we were already after Toby, the real *wow* player for me (since any person with one eye or more could see how good he was when he was for Soton in 14-15). I'll admit, though, that if Toby hadn't signed, then I'd have been a lot more skeptical of Wimmer, in tune with my disdain for Stambouli and Fazio type cheap deals.
 
There's going to be more transfers out than in the next few days and people aren't going to be happy.
You just have to accept that if a player wants to leave, Poch doesn't want him training with the rest of the squad.
That's how he successfully man manages the group. If a player doesn't have 100% the right attitude or isn't committed to the club then they are gone before their attitude upsets the culture in the rest of the group.
I would not be surprised to 6 fringe players go in next few days.
I get that but want to see us prioritize areas for reinforcements before selling, but hey there's a few days yet, and maybe a vdv situation might repeat itself

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That's fine, but the concern about squad depth is legitimate.

My one real concern about the Poch/Levy's strategy is the lack of experience/age/calming in the squad. Having Vorm to cover for Lloris is great, what other position do we have either experienced cover or an experienced head to come in and close/manage a game out?

I love the fact that Alli, Rose, Dier, Lamela take no brick, and give as good as they get ... but a calm head could also help (and avoid last year's Cheat$ki scenario, which argueably cost us 2nd if not title).

Basically back four, midfield, strikers, every time we go to the bench it's less experience (and less proven quality). In my opinion, huge case to be made for buying a couple of 30+ players, especially quality ones who can influence squad, calm games, help guide youngsters.
I don't see a point in giving Kane, alli and Dier stick when the coach hasn't involved them in any pre season.

But I give Poch stick for that, I refuse to believe that there isn't a better way eg I watched de Bruyne and Ozil and they are already fit and playing sparkling football.

Also perhaps a deeper bench is needed to back up the international cohort who needs more time off.

But not inexperienced kids... We have to take every game seriously if we want to achieve anything...

As of now it feels like we are gambling with our first 10 games

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Why'd be have Wijnaldum over at his house? Why'd he signal the need for three signings earlier on? Why'd he admit that he would have liked to have Mane at the club?

This stuff about Poch 'believing in' our youngsters to the extent that he's portrayed as being happy to fill up every space outside the first eleven with them needs to stop. Poch 'believing' in our youngsters need not mean buying no one and relying on KWP, CCV, Winks, Carroll, Onomah, Edwards and Harrison to all excel a la Alli when they are inevitably called on to replace a first team player. Poch 'believing' in Winks, for example, didn't stop him playing Wanyama (a destroyer, not a distributor) over him in all of our games so far. And to be honest, unless the player's a genuine superstar in the making a la Alli, I don't think it's helpful for either them or Poch to rely on them, especially given (let's be honest) their decent-but-unspectacular performances from them so far in their cameos.

We disagree on the squad (I think we have *far too much* space to be filled by only youngsters,since my ideal would be a strong first eleven, a strong second eleven with the best of our youngsters included, and the rest of the raw-but-promising talent in the three spots outside the first 22), but I don't think it's doing Poch a favor to put words in his mouth to the effect of 'I'm happy not to sign Youri Tielemans, proven in the CL and one of the best wonderkids in Europe, because I want to play Winks instead' when he's given no indications of such a (frankly) dangerous thought process so far.

I think you're right in a way. I can't see Poch relying too much on the likes of KWP, CCV, Winks, Onomah, Edwards and Harrison. Last season he barely gave any of them playing time, even in the cups.
KWP, CCV, Harrison and Edwards still haven't even make their debuts.
Winks has got 21 minutes total across 4 separate games over 3 different seasons.
Onomah is only one of them I see getting a real chance this season, but even has only play 82 minutes total in the league.
 
Well, our essential disagreement is in what the balance of the squad should be. You say you like the idea of Winks being our '4th or 5th' choice CM. Well, let me put it another way - would you like Winks to be the direct backup to Dembele? Because that's what we presently have, given that Wanyama was meant to be Dier's backup. Same for Onomah - would you like Onomah to be the direct backup to Alli/Eriksen/Kane/whoever plays in the hole from our first-eleven? Because that's what we've got at the moment. CCV is a bit of a different situation - he is probably our backup for Toby in the same sense that Wimmer is the backup for Verts...but it's a low risk situation, because Dier can shuffle across and do the job if CCV doesn't prove ready.

Has Poch ever said this or is it just a case of 2+2=5? Wanyama has the physical attributes to do what Dembele does. Right now it's a case of the whole team not finding its rhytm yet.

The discord lies in what you envision the roles of a 4th choice CM, 2nd choice AM or 4th choice CB to be. Personally, I visualize the squad as two sets of eleven plus 3 others (a goalie and two varied players). And, generally, such a utilisation of the squad will see the 2nd choice CM/AM/CB for their respective roles play an awful lot more than cup games and the odd Prem game here and there. And, in that situation, it's going to be a major, major drop in quality between our first eleven and what we presently have as backups in key areas of the field. And I'm not sure that's acceptable, is all.

We know Poch likes a smaller squad with versatile players. That way you don't need a direct backup for every position, but instead have a core of 15-18 of outfield players that rotate. If Gorgeous Kevin signs we'll have 7 players for 4 attacking spots. Some players can cover several positions in case of emergency like Dier, Dembele, Alli.

GK: Lloris, Vorm

RB: Walker, Trippier

LB: Rose, Davies

CB: Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Wimmer (+CCV)

CM: Dier, Dembele, Wanyama (+Winks)

AM: Lamela, Eriksen, Alli, Son, A.N. Other in place of Chadli (+Onomah)

ST: Kane, Janssen

Re: Wijnaldum, it's difficult to square that we collectively decided against Wijnaldum when (in his own words) he went to Poch's house and Poch sold him on the role he would play, the improvement he would undergo and so on. Why would he do that if he had no intention of signing Wijnaldum due to his price?

It's common to contact the player or his representatives to see if a deal is worth pursuing before making a bid. Sometimes even with the selling club's knowledge and approval.

And as for Wimmer, nope, I knew he was a Bundesliga CB, and given that I have a soft spot for Koln, I knew that he had *some* role to play in them finishing in a respectable mid-table position after being promoted, although I never found the time to see them play myself. Personally, I found Wimmer to be an alright signing - by the time I'd digested the fact that he'd signed, we were already after Toby, the real *wow* player for me (since any person with one eye or more could see how good he was when he was for Soton in 14-15). I'll admit, though, that if Toby hadn't signed, then I'd have been a lot more skeptical of Wimmer, in tune with my disdain for Stambouli and Fazio type cheap deals.

If filling the squad is considered a requirement, then there is no escaping a few cheaper punts/relative unknowns. It does seem that a lot of our fanbase will forever hold it against someone that they weren't expensive or well known when we signed them.
 
I think you're right in a way. I can't see Poch relying too much on the likes of KWP, CCV, Winks, Onomah, Edwards and Harrison. Last season he barely gave any of them playing time, even in the cups.
KWP, CCV, Harrison and Edwards still haven't even make their debuts.
Winks has got 21 minutes total across 4 separate games over 3 different seasons.
Onomah is only one of them I see getting a real chance this season, but even has only play 82 minutes total in the league.

You're right, and yet, these are the players that are now being pencilled in to fill up an increasing number of squad slots.

Has Poch ever said this or is it just a case of 2+2=5? Wanyama has the physical attributes to do what Dembele does. Right now it's a case of the whole team not finding its rhytm yet.

He does not have the technical skills. He struggles with distribution, and he doesn't dribble nearly as well. I never expected him to be a Dembele backup given these glaringly obvious limitations - I fully expected him to be an excellent backup/rotation option for Dier, since his skillset (strength, height, tackling, tracking back) is what you'd expect someone fitting the bill as a DM to have. As for Poch's view on things, He played Wanyama and Schneiderlin together in midfield for a reason - if Wanyama was meant to be the forward-thinking option, then what on Earth was Schneiderlin (a distributor, but not fast or very physical) meant to do alongside him?

We know Poch likes a smaller squad with versatile players. That way you don't need a direct backup for every position, but instead have a core of 15-18 of outfield players that rotate. If Gorgeous Kevin signs we'll have 7 players for 4 attacking spots. Some players can cover several positions in case of emergency like Dier, Dembele, Alli.

GK: Lloris, Vorm

RB: Walker, Trippier

LB: Rose, Davies

CB: Vertonghen, Alderweireld, Wimmer (+CCV)

CM: Dier, Dembele, Wanyama (+Winks)

AM: Lamela, Eriksen, Alli, Son, A.N. Other in place of Chadli (+Onomah)

ST: Kane, Janssen

How small? Southampton's squad heading into Poch's full season there consisted of Davis, Boruc, Gazzaniga (GKs), Clyne, Yoshida, Lovren, Fonte, Hooiveld, Lee, Chambers, Shaw, Fox (DFs) , Rodriguez, Ward-Prowse, Ramirez, Schneiderlin, Wanyama, Cork, Reed, Davis, Lallana, Do Prado (MFs), Lambert, Osvaldo, and Gallagher (FWs).

In terms of pros who had made at least fifteen appearances for the first-team in the previous season (save for the goalies, for obvious reasons) or were sufficiently old (I arbitrarily chose 24 as the cut-off), I count 22 out of that 25 man squad. Where has Poch said that he prefers a core of 15-18 players? The closest I can get is when he stated that he wanted exactly 25 players in his squad, waaaay back at the start of his career here. Given past evidence, I don't think this '15-18' player business is something he prioritizes, and I don't think leaving ourselves as stretched as that will do any good.

It's common to contact the player or his representatives to see if a deal is worth pursuing before making a bid. Sometimes even with the selling club's knowledge and approval.

Where does contact equal 'come over to my house, and I'll tell you how you fit into my plans, my squad, my matchday line-up, and how you'll improve with me' and so on? The process would get drearily long if Poch had to make the pitch to every single player we enquired about. The fact that the boss himself speaks to a player seems pretty telling in terms of the transfer being further along than a typical enquiry.


If filling the squad is considered a requirement, then there is no escaping a few cheaper punts/relative unknowns. It does seem that a lot of our fanbase will forever hold it against someone that they weren't expensive or well known when we signed them.

I held it against Stambo and Fazio, both of whom were unceremoniously dumped after a year where anyone could see that they were cheap panic buys at the close of a failure of a window. I don't hold it against someone signed on the basis of their obvious quality (like Toby - he came for 13-odd million, but I didn't call him a 'mid-range' signing) or someone signed with obvious upside (Alli/Dier/Wimmer, although again, I would have been sniffy if we'd stuck with Wimmer alone after that). Often, signings we make are marginal, or fall into the gap between being a young prospect with lots of upside and a first-team player ready to contribute - sometimes I give them the benefit of the doubt, but sadly, given our long, distinguished record of scrimping on better options to go for the cheaper deal, more often than not I tend to assume we've signed them because someone else would cost more money, damn the difference in immediate ability/upside, and damn what the manager wants. That's true, and I freely admit it, although I will point out that, given that all these signings still play for Tottenham Hotspur Football Club, 'holding it against them' is usually a case of willing them to prove me wrong, as opposed to willing players to prove me right, as is the case with more readily ambitious or promising signings. I also tend to quickly warm to them when they display passion for the club, pride when wearing the shirt or a readiness to defend their team-mates (as Fazio did when he headbutted some c*nt who tried to square up to Lloris), but that's getting too off-topic :p
 
In terms of pros who had made at least fifteen appearances for the first-team in the previous season (save for the goalies, for obvious reasons) or were sufficiently old (I arbitrarily chose 24 as the cut-off), I count 22 out of that 25 man squad. Where has Poch said that he prefers a core of 15-18 players? The closest I can get is when he stated that he wanted exactly 25 players in his squad, waaaay back at the start of his career here. Given past evidence, I don't think this '15-18' player business is something he prioritizes, and I don't think leaving ourselves as stretched as that will do any good.

He said 24-25 players in one interview, but my guess is that it includes the younger ones that don't have to be registered as well.

I listed 22 players and we still have Carroll, Njie, Mason with us.

From a total of 24 players last season we had 12 players making 28 appearances or more in the league. Below that there's Rose with 24, Mason with 22 (mostly subs), Carroll with 19 (mostly subs) and Davies with 17 (when Rose was out). That's 16 players.

The remaining 8 made 10 or less and, apart from Wimmer and Trippier, almost exclusively as subs.

We have lost Pritchard (5 mins), Chadli (938 mins) and Bentaleb (238 mins) and could see Mason (801 mins), Carroll (506 mins) and Njie (185 mins) leave. We've replaced those with the two signings we have made and we have Winks instead of Carroll.

With 7 places available on the bench I'd expect at least one or two to be youth in case there's an opportunity to play them and the rest to a standard one GK, one or two defenders, one midfielder and two attackers.
 
Well, our essential disagreement is in what the balance of the squad should be. You say you like the idea of Winks being our '4th or 5th' choice CM. Well, let me put it another way - would you like Winks to be the direct backup to Dembele? Because that's what we presently have, given that Wanyama was meant to be Dier's backup. Same for Onomah - would you like Onomah to be the direct backup to Alli/Eriksen/Kane/whoever plays in the hole from our first-eleven? Because that's what we've got at the moment. CCV is a bit of a different situation - he is probably our backup for Toby in the same sense that Wimmer is the backup for Verts...but it's a low risk situation, because Dier can shuffle across and do the job if CCV doesn't prove ready.

Yeah, I think you're right on where we are disagreeing on when it comes to squad balance. As I've said, I do agree that we need one more senior pro for the attacking 3 behind Kane/Janssen, so Onomah/NKoudou wouldn't need to be pressed into full-time starting duty if two of Lamela, Alli, Son, and Eriksen were injured longterm. I frankly wish we would have kept Clinton another season to see if he could have filled that role when healthy, but that ship seems to have sailed.

I'm admit that I probably am overrating Winks a bit, mostly due to just what little I've seen of him and what I've read from people who watch the youth teams consistently, but I am intrigued by the thought of him as our 4th choice central midfielder and would love to see him get a ton of minutes this season. I could def be wrong about him, but I really want to see him get a chance to start in more than just the odd League Cup game this season, and the same goes for CCV and Josh. It might be a gamble, but so is a big-money new signing like Wijnaldum. I just tend to prefer to gamble on our academy players. But of course, I understand that other side of the argument.
 
Has Poch ever said this or is it just a case of 2+2=5? Wanyama has the physical attributes to do what Dembele does. Right now it's a case of the whole team not finding its rhytm yet.

The physical attributes sure. But does he have the technical attributes to do that? I've always thought Demele is a fairly average passer, but in terms of close control and skill on the ball he's a very talented player. He combines that physique with technique in a way that very few players do. And in a way that very few 25 year olds learn to do.

Right now Wanyama should aim at getting up to doing what Dier does on the ball. That would be an improvement. The step up to Dembele is huge. The step up to someone that could actually be described as a deep playmaker almost makes me want to cry.

I've been spoiled a bit by Carrick and Modric. And I know I rate ball playing deep midfielders higher than most. But against Liverpool our starting duo in midfield were worse on the ball that all 3 of our opponent's central midfielders - and none of them are particularly good deep/central midfielders. fudging Milner would be a solid step up in terms of creativity and passing ability in our central midfield - James Milner! And I never wanted us to sign James Milner...

Both our central defenders are clearly superior to both our central midfielders on the ball. I've sometimes thought that they just switched places during a game whenever we have the ball we would look quite a bit better going forward (not actually suggesting that we do that). We have two excellent ball playing centre backs, but still... For me, as someone spoiled by Carrick and Modric, that's a bit of a sad state of affairs.

Right now I struggle to get my head around what the plan is. Is Pochettino happy with this selection of players as his plans are quite different to what I think would be good for us? Or is this to make room for another young player to emerge? Or have we ended up in a bit of a mess in terms of options in that position?

Links to Rabiot for example seemed to me to indicate a wish to bring in more ball playing ability to our central midfield options. The early trust showed to Bentaleb and Mason seemed to me to indicate the importance put in ball playing ability in those roles. But right now?
 
It all 'appears' to be a bit of a mess, but I'll hold off judgement until the transfer window is firmly shut.

I think it's more a case of tidying up. We are selling backups and players that barely featured. Anything more than a couple of additions would take us back into bloated territory assuming Poch wants to include other youngsters.
 
I think it's more a case of tidying up. We are selling backups and players that barely featured. Anything more than a couple of additions would take us back into bloated territory assuming Poch wants to include other youngsters.

I agree. There is no point in us having the academy if we are going to buy in first team squad players to play ahead of them.
 
It seems reasonable to assume that, if Pochettino is happy to sanction moving Bentaleb, Chadli, Mason and potentially Carroll as well on, it's because he's received certain assurances from upstairs, because it's clear that the squad as it stands is well undercooked for the season we've got ahead.

I listen to his responses to media questions, and I think, yeah, it seems to me I've heard this all before somewhere, but fair enough, he's toeing the party line about how we're trying various things but it's 'difficult', and about being happy with the squad, even if we can't get any more in, just like AVB before him. I suppose we must hope he isn't singing a different tune privately, just like AVB before him, because we've seen where that ends.

It does concern me that, a year ago, we were all marvelling at the wonderful staffing structures that were being assembled, weaving a synergy between the scouting and coaching set-ups, and that all that seems to have crumbled again, suddenly, and, funnily enough, at just about the same time as it came to having to spend on targets.
 
I agree. There is no point in us having the academy if we are going to buy in first team squad players to play ahead of them.
True enough, except does it not also - at least to an extent - depend on the quality of academy players we happen to have available?

How likely are we to win the League / Champions League / whatever with such a liberal sprinkling of unproven kids, or are we simply trying to stay in touch with the big boys?
 
From some of the above posts, we are in a serious relegation territory.
GHod help us. I think I will slaughter a goat at the bottom of Mount Kenya, in Honor of the gods atop the mountain.
 
From some of the above posts, we are in a serious relegation territory.
GHod help us. I think I will slaughter a goat at the bottom of Mount Kenya, in Honor of the gods atop the mountain.

Why not chickens instead, you know seeing our badge and all?
 
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From some of the above posts, we are in a serious relegation territory.
GHod help us. I think I will slaughter a goat at the bottom of Mount Kenya, in Honor of the gods atop the mountain.
And then go have a barbecue and beers on your terrace and make us all jealous about it :mad:

Edit: You have to do it at the top of Mount Kenya. Bottom doesn't work ;)
 
The physical attributes sure. But does he have the technical attributes to do that? I've always thought Demele is a fairly average passer, but in terms of close control and skill on the ball he's a very talented player. He combines that physique with technique in a way that very few players do. And in a way that very few 25 year olds learn to do.

Right now Wanyama should aim at getting up to doing what Dier does on the ball. That would be an improvement. The step up to Dembele is huge. The step up to someone that could actually be described as a deep playmaker almost makes me want to cry.

I've been spoiled a bit by Carrick and Modric. And I know I rate ball playing deep midfielders higher than most. But against Liverpool our starting duo in midfield were worse on the ball that all 3 of our opponent's central midfielders - and none of them are particularly good deep/central midfielders. fudgeing Milner would be a solid step up in terms of creativity and passing ability in our central midfield - James Milner! And I never wanted us to sign James Milner...

Both our central defenders are clearly superior to both our central midfielders on the ball. I've sometimes thought that they just switched places during a game whenever we have the ball we would look quite a bit better going forward (not actually suggesting that we do that). We have two excellent ball playing centre backs, but still... For me, as someone spoiled by Carrick and Modric, that's a bit of a sad state of affairs.

Right now I struggle to get my head around what the plan is. Is Pochettino happy with this selection of players as his plans are quite different to what I think would be good for us? Or is this to make room for another young player to emerge? Or have we ended up in a bit of a mess in terms of options in that position?

Links to Rabiot for example seemed to me to indicate a wish to bring in more ball playing ability to our central midfield options. The early trust showed to Bentaleb and Mason seemed to me to indicate the importance put in ball playing ability in those roles. But right now?

Personally I think Dier is good enough on the ball in centre mid and marginally better than Toby, perhaps not as good as Verthongen. That said its easy to look good on the ball with all of the play in front of you and making a couple of forays forward in a game. Much more difficult when space is tight and you have 2-3 players pressing you and cutting off passing options.
I couldn't say Henderson was technically any better than Dier.
Wanyama I agree is physically very good and he's screened reasonably well thus far but I think his use of the ball is quite poor. I also thought he was far too casual a couple of times against Liverpool. I want to see him be much more forceful in the opponent's half. Liverpool's press seemed much more aggressive than ours.
 
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