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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

We haven't won anything with a bloated squad in the past either. Maybe it is time for us to cut a manager some slack and see if their methods work.

I'm all for it. When does Wijnaldum sign? He was at Poch's house discussing things, so Poch clearly wants him.

Oh, we couldn't agree 'financial terms'. Well, surely we've signed another AM that's just as good? After all, we've had a month since Wijnaldum went to Liverpool....oh, we haven't, and it's two days until the window shuts. Well, maybe we can train our own youngsters to develop in his stead, or sign some quality to give him the tools he needs. But one of our youth coaches has just gone to United (another loss after Ingelthorpe, who left for Merseyside two years ago), and our chief scout left in a huff for reasons unknown, although the one data point we have is that it may have something to do with missing out on Batshuayi and settling for the cheaper Janssen.

I want the manager to get whatever he wants, when he wants it. I've been consistent in that stance. And I don't think what we have now is what Poch wants. We may have a better, fuller squad at the end of the window, but it isn't true to say that our callow squad as it stands, with the experienced players being sold and the young, untested, (frankly) decent-but-unspectacular academy graduates the only option available to us to fill spaces, is something Poch necessarily wants. And if we fall into such a position again (or if, lord forbid, all this clearing of the decks isn't to make way for some star signings), then expecting Poch to work with a squad like this because 'it's what he wants, clearly' is probably doing a disservice to him and his expectations for excellence.
 
I'm all for it. When does Wijnaldum sign? He was at Poch's house discussing things, so Poch clearly wants him.

Oh, we couldn't agree 'financial terms'. Well, surely we've signed another AM that's just as good? After all, we've had a month since Wijnaldum went to Liverpool....oh, we haven't, and it's two days until the window shuts. Well, maybe we can train our own youngsters to develop in his stead, or sign some quality to give him the tools he needs. But one of our youth coaches has just gone to United (another loss after Ingelthorpe, who left for Merseyside two years ago), and our chief scout left in a huff for reasons unknown, although the one data point we have is that it may have something to do with missing out on Batshuayi and settling for the cheaper Janssen.

I want the manager to get whatever he wants, when he wants it. I've been consistent in that stance. And I don't think what we have now is what Poch wants. We may have a better, fuller squad at the end of the window, but it isn't true to say that our callow squad as it stands, with the experienced players being sold and the young, untested, (frankly) decent-but-unspectacular academy graduates the only option available to us to fill spaces, is something Poch necessarily wants. And if we fall into such a position again (or if, lord forbid, all this clearing of the decks isn't to make way for some star signings), then expecting Poch to work with a squad like this because 'it's what he wants, clearly' is probably doing a disservice to him and his expectations for excellence.

I wouldn't pretend to know what Poch wants but considering he was pretty open about how he felt at Southampton and was prepared to walk when he did not feel he was being supported, I doubt he would hang around if he felt that Levy was undercutting him.
 
Seeing a lot of people talk about our "threadbare" squad, and I think it could come down to Poch believing in and counting on our youngsters more than we do as fans because we just haven't really seen them play yet. Most are blaming Levy for not spending money, but I wonder if it's more of a question of Poch wanting to have minutes for youngsters he clearly believes in.

Any attacking midfielder we bring in means fewer minutes for Onomoah, N'Koudou, and Edwards — players Poch likely wants to bring through. Another example is if we bring in Teielemans for 20 million, that means no minutes this season for Winks. Same goes for Mangala and CCV. I have no clue if our young players are ready, but you would think Poch and his staff have the best idea. He clearly didn't think Nabil, Mase, and Andros were up to it, but from what we've read, he thinks guys like Winks, Onomah, Edwards, KWP, and CCV are ready for the step up soon.

The only place the squad looks light to me is in AM, especially as Dele and Josh can both drop into the Dembele role if need be. If we fill that with a real class player (prays for Isco, expects Zaha), I think we have enough classy, experienced pros with plenty of places for the stars of tomorrow to get on the pitch. Remember that Dele and Dier were mostly unknowns at this time last season. It's a bit of a risk, but I really want to see Winks, CCV, Onomah, and possibly Edwards make an impact this season.

Current Squad:

GK: Lloris / Vorm / Lopez
RB : Walker / Trippier / KWP
CB1: Vertonghen / Wimmer
CB2: Alderweireld / CCV
LB: Rose / Davies

CDM: Dier / Wanyama
CAM: Dembele / Winks / Carroll / (Alli) / (Onomah)

AM1: Lamela / Sonny
AM2: Alli / Onomah
AM3: Eriksen / Nkoudou / Edwards

ST: Kane / Janssen / Harrison
 
Seeing a lot of people talk about our "threadbare" squad, and I think it could come down to Poch believing in and counting on our youngsters more than we do as fans because we just haven't really seen them play yet. Most are blaming Levy for not spending money, but I wonder if it's more of a question of Poch wanting to have minutes for youngsters he clearly believes in.

Any attacking midfielder we bring in means fewer minutes for Onomoah, N'Koudou, and Edwards — players Poch likely wants to bring through. Another example is if we bring in Teielemans for 20 million, that means no minutes this season for Winks. Same goes for Mangala and CCV. I have no clue if our young players are ready, but you would think Poch and his staff have the best idea. He clearly didn't think Nabil, Mase, and Andros were up to it, but from what we've read, he thinks guys like Winks, Onomah, Edwards, KWP, and CCV are ready for the step up soon.

The only place the squad looks light to me is in AM, especially as Dele and Josh can both drop into the Dembele role if need be. If we fill that with a real class player (prays for Isco, expects Zaha), I think we have enough classy, experienced pros with plenty of places for the stars of tomorrow to get on the pitch. Remember that Dele and Dier were mostly unknowns at this time last season. It's a bit of a risk, but I really want to see Winks, CCV, Onomah, and possibly Edwards make an impact this season.

Current Squad:

GK: Lloris / Vorm / Lopez
RB : Walker / Trippier / KWP
CB1: Vertonghen / Wimmer
CB2: Alderweireld / CCV
LB: Rose / Davies

CDM: Dier / Wanyama
CAM: Dembele / Winks / Carroll / (Alli) / (Onomah)

AM1: Lamela / Sonny
AM2: Alli / Onomah
AM3: Eriksen / Nkoudou / Edwards

ST: Kane / Janssen / Harrison

Also, when you look at that squad, you realize how insane/unlikely it would be to sell Sonny. For me, he's an extremely important player, even more so with Chadli now gone. He's got pretty good pace and is a goal threat. Nailed on to stay, imo.
 
I think we're suffering from expectation changing due to exceeding expectations.

Last season we could have won the league... That's not really been the case in my lifetime and wasn't on the radar this time last season so we massively changed expectations

This season we have been tipped by some to win it ... Those goal posts have moved and so have our (fans) expectations

Poch knows this is a long term gig for him and he is building but what he won't be used to is the short termism of Spurs fans and The UK press

If we had played the football we did last season and finished a close 4th we would all be saying wow, and Poch knows best now with the transfers etc... Because we were arguably the best side in the league (football wise) and we have now sold some of the fringe players from last season and actually brought in some players who can start first 11 we have some disgruntled fans/concerned fans/nervous fans

I've said it a few times in the last and even recently. We have to back Poch 100% on everything otherwise what's the point in having a plan. If he wants to blood the kids now for the future good so be it. It didn't grab us last season with Alli for example.
 
Also, when you look at that squad, you realize how insane/unlikely it would be to sell Sonny. For me, he's an extremely important player, even more so with Chadli now gone. He's got pretty good pace and is a goal threat. Nailed on to stay, imo.

I agree with that, however found it curious at the weekend when we needed a goal but Son didnt come on but Onomah did. Based on what they've produced historically, Son was far more likely to get us a goal than JO
 
Seeing a lot of people talk about our "threadbare" squad, and I think it could come down to Poch believing in and counting on our youngsters more than we do as fans because we just haven't really seen them play yet. Most are blaming Levy for not spending money, but I wonder if it's more of a question of Poch wanting to have minutes for youngsters he clearly believes in.

Why'd be have Wijnaldum over at his house? Why'd he signal the need for three signings earlier on? Why'd he admit that he would have liked to have Mane at the club?

This stuff about Poch 'believing in' our youngsters to the extent that he's portrayed as being happy to fill up every space outside the first eleven with them needs to stop. Poch 'believing' in our youngsters need not mean buying no one and relying on KWP, CCV, Winks, Carroll, Onomah, Edwards and Harrison to all excel a la Alli when they are inevitably called on to replace a first team player. Poch 'believing' in Winks, for example, didn't stop him playing Wanyama (a destroyer, not a distributor) over him in all of our games so far. And to be honest, unless the player's a genuine superstar in the making a la Alli, I don't think it's helpful for either them or Poch to rely on them, especially given (let's be honest) their decent-but-unspectacular performances from them so far in their cameos.

We disagree on the squad (I think we have *far too much* space to be filled by only youngsters,since my ideal would be a strong first eleven, a strong second eleven with the best of our youngsters included, and the rest of the raw-but-promising talent in the three spots outside the first 22), but I don't think it's doing Poch a favor to put words in his mouth to the effect of 'I'm happy not to sign Youri Tielemans, proven in the CL and one of the best wonderkids in Europe, because I want to play Winks instead' when he's given no indications of such a (frankly) dangerous thought process so far.
 
If we had played the football we did last season and finished a close 4th we would all be saying wow, and Poch knows best now with the transfers etc... Because we were arguably the best side in the league (football wise) and we have now sold some of the fringe players from last season and actually brought in some players who can start first 11 we have some disgruntled fans/concerned fans/nervous fans

I've said it a few times in the last and even recently. We have to back Poch 100% on everything otherwise what's the point in having a plan. If he wants to blood the kids now for the future good so be it. It didn't grab us last season with Alli for example.

Firstly, I've maintained that the fact that we ultimately finished with 70 points last season, same as in 2009-2010 and less than what we finished with in 2012-2013, puts a question mark over the true extent of our claim to be the 'best' side in the league. So I'm not coming from the standpoint of 'inflated expectations'.

Secondly, again, this stuff about Poch being happy with 25 18-year-old academy graduates as a squad needs to stop. Concerns over playing time for Winks, Onomah and Edwards evidently didn't stop him trying to get Wijnaldum to sign for us (although we ballsed it up for predictable reasons), hasn't prevented him asking for three or four first-team signings, and hasn't prevented him playing Wanyama over the aforementioned Winks in every game so far. Poch is ambitious, and wants to win things and help us progress as a club (which also improves his profile and makes him more attractive to clubs like Barca and Madrid, the creme de la creme) - I very much doubt his aim to spend ten years developing Onomah, Edwards and Winks while consistently underperforming (because *of course* we will if that's our only approach) and being happy with humungous profits being made in the transfer window and no replacements signed for the first-team players that do leave because Will Miller is impressing against Brentford U-18s or whatever.
 
So @DubaiSpur how do you explain Pochs willingness to sell so many players if he isn't comfortable what he has ???

The only explanation I have other than 'Levy made him' is that we're clearing the decks for new incomings. It's what I'm desperately hoping is true.

Seriously, this meme about Poch being some youth-crazy masochist with an aversion to spending needs to end. He spent successive record transfer fees (for Soton) to bring in first Lovren, then Wanyama and finally Osvaldo in one summer, all of whom had young, promising alternatives in Soton's youth system that he could have used in lieu of incoming transfers (namely Chambers, Reed and Gallagher/Isgrove). What we have seen is that the most promising youngsters (in Soton's case, Ward-Prowse and Chambers) get regular time, but the bench, the first 22 and the squad as a whole is filled with experience and first-team players ready to contribute when necessary, no different to any other club save for the aforementioned use of the most promising players.
 
The only explanation I have other than 'Levy made him' is that we're clearing the decks for new incomings. It's what I'm desperately hoping is true.

Seriously, this meme about Poch being some youth-crazy masochist with an aversion to spending needs to end. He spent successive record transfer fees (for Soton) to bring in first Lovren, then Wanyama and finally Osvaldo in one summer, all of whom had young, promising alternatives in Soton's youth system that he could have used in lieu of incoming transfers (namely Chambers, Reed and Gallagher/Isgrove). What we have seen is that the most promising youngsters (in Soton's case, Ward-Prowse and Chambers) get regular time, but the bench, the first 22 and the squad as a whole is filled with experience and first-team players ready to contribute when necessary, no different to any other club save for the aforementioned use of the most promising players.

Yeah that's fair and I'm sure Poch knows who he wants and who we can get
 
Why'd be have Wijnaldum over at his house? Why'd he signal the need for three signings earlier on? Why'd he admit that he would have liked to have Mane at the club?

This stuff about Poch 'believing in' our youngsters to the extent that he's portrayed as being happy to fill up every space outside the first eleven with them needs to stop. Poch 'believing' in our youngsters need not mean buying no one and relying on KWP, CCV, Winks, Carroll, Onomah, Edwards and Harrison to all excel a la Alli when they are inevitably called on to replace a first team player. Poch 'believing' in Winks, for example, didn't stop him playing Wanyama (a destroyer, not a distributor) over him in all of our games so far. And to be honest, unless the player's a genuine superstar in the making a la Alli, I don't think it's helpful for either them or Poch to rely on them, especially given (let's be honest) their decent-but-unspectacular performances from them so far in their cameos.

We disagree on the squad (I think we have *far too much* space to be filled by only youngsters,since my ideal would be a strong first eleven, a strong second eleven with the best of our youngsters included, and the rest of the raw-but-promising talent in the three spots outside the first 22), but I don't think it's doing Poch a favor to put words in his mouth to the effect of 'I'm happy not to sign Youri Tielemans, proven in the CL and one of the best wonderkids in Europe, because I want to play Winks instead' when he's given no indications of such a (frankly) dangerous thought process so far.

I'd assume he had Wijnaldum over at his house because he wanted to sign him. Unfortunately, his fee was 25 million pounds and salary demands were 75k per week. That would make him one of our top earners and one of our three most expensive fees ever. For someone from a relegated team who probably would have been a back-up when our first-choice XI was fit. Does that sound like a smart signing to you?

We are building a new stadium; we can't just throw stupid money around because our coach wants a player. Same goes for Mané. He cost 30 million (our transfer record) and was asking for 125k per week. We just can't afford to smash our wage structure on someone like Mane, who might not even improve our XI that much. New signings are fun, but we have to be reasonable.

In response to: "Poch 'believing' in our youngsters need not mean buying no one and relying on KWP, CCV, Winks, Carroll, Onomah, Edwards and Harrison to all excel a la Alli when they are inevitably called on to replace a first team player. I don't think it's helpful for either them or Poch to rely on them, especially given (let's be honest) their decent-but-unspectacular performances from them so far in their cameos."

We haven't bought no one. We've bought three players already — Wanyama, Janssen, Nkoudou — who are all meant to be in the first team squad, and we are likely to buy a couple more (as I advocated for). Sure, all of those young players probably won't excel, but they'll never be able to if they aren't given the chance. Also, I'll never understand why fans hold their own judgements of young players in cameo appearances over a management team who literally watches them every day in training. There's a reason why Poch didn't buy another centre back last season (as soooo many clamored for). It was because he knew that Wimmer was ready.

Before we start ripping up our season tickets and burning our jerseys, let's at least get to the end of the window and give this squad a little time. Just like last season, they might surprise us.
 
I'd assume he had Wijnaldum over at his house because he wanted to sign him. Unfortunately, his fee was 25 million pounds and salary demands were 75k per week. That would make him one of our top earners and one of our three most expensive fees ever. For someone from a relegated team who probably would have been a back-up when our first-choice XI was fit. Does that sound like a smart signing to you?

We are building a new stadium; we can't just throw stupid money around because our coach wants a player. Same goes for Mané. He cost 30 million (our transfer record) and was asking for 125k per week. We just can't afford to smash our wage structure on someone like Mane, who might not even improve our XI that much. New signings are fun, but we have to be reasonable.

So, wait a minute. Your post suggested that us not signing anyone of note despite shifting players over the last few days is down to Poch wanting to blood youngsters, not Levy being legendarily tight (as he usually is, sometimes to his own detriment). Now, when I point out that Poch wanted to sign players, you're suggesting that we were right not to go for them because they were too expensive for our tastes, which is necessarily a case of Levy being tight. So, who's responsible again? Poch wants players, Levy doesn't want them - no need to then go on to suggest that Poch *really, really likes* using Onomah over 25m Wijnaldum.

And, incidentally, this sort of argument does make me laugh a bit when it comes from people (not you necessarily) who proudly declare that we should back the manager's 'vision' or his 'plan' on one hand and then dismiss signings like Wijnaldum or Zaha as unreasonable for a teensy club of our stature building a stadium on the other. If you're backing the man, back him when he asks for a 25m signing on 75k a week. Saying that's too unreasonable is just saying 'we back him when he asks for something cheap and easy to get - else, he's being unreasonable'. Hell, I think Zaha and Wijnaldum are awful, mediocre signings, but if Poch wants them, I damn sure expect Levy to put down the f*cking money for them if he's serious about 'backing' the guy. All else is just hypocritical equivocating, imo.



In response to: "Poch 'believing' in our youngsters need not mean buying no one and relying on KWP, CCV, Winks, Carroll, Onomah, Edwards and Harrison to all excel a la Alli when they are inevitably called on to replace a first team player. I don't think it's helpful for either them or Poch to rely on them, especially given (let's be honest) their decent-but-unspectacular performances from them so far in their cameos."

We haven't bought no one. We've bought three players already — Wanyama, Janssen, Nkoudou — who are all meant to be in the first team squad, and we are likely to buy a couple more (as I advocated for). Sure, all of those young players probably won't excel, but they'll never be able to if they aren't given the chance. Also, I'll never understand why fans hold their own judgements of young players in cameo appearances over a management team who literally watches them every day in training. There's a reason why Poch didn't buy another centre back last season (as soooo many clamored for). It was because he knew that Wimmer was ready.

Before we start ripping up our season tickets and burning our jerseys, let's at least get to the end of the window and give this squad a little time. Just like last season, they might surprise us.

We have not bought three players. We have bought two. N'Koudou has not been registered, has not been on what has otherwise been a very thin matchday bench these past few weeks, and has not done anything other than training here. But, that's somewhat beside the point. Poch seeing Winks in training didn't stop him from starting Wanyama over him in the games, and that's despite accounting for the fact that Winks was relatively impressive in pre-season. Poch seeing Onomah in training hasn't prevented him from only using the kid in the last 5-10 minutes of games.

The management watch them every day in training. I'm just not sure the management are reaching conclusions all that different to the fans, who see these players and think 'they're okay, might improve to become good with time, but nothing presently extraordinary'. As for Poch not buying another center back last season....erm, Wimmer was a signing from a few months beforeVerts went down. One of the most impressive defenders in the Bundesliga, first-team football under his belt at Koln, 23 years of age. He was the very definition of the squad signing that people now feel would help beef up our squad alongside the higher-profile options (like N'Koudou - I have no great expectations for what is a peripheral addition if it happens, but every player sold makes it more necessary to have at least a player of that quality around). A better example to use in your case would have been Poch using CCV to fill in for Verts' absence - which we now know he didn't do.

I just don't think it's wise to expect Poch to be some masochist who deliberately makes his job harder for himself by using unprepared kids en masse when a signing with more experience and more ability might do a better job.
 
So, wait a minute. Your post suggested that us not signing anyone of note despite shifting players over the last few days is down to Poch wanting to blood youngsters, not Levy being legendarily tight (as he usually is, sometimes to his own detriment). Now, when I point out that Poch wanted to sign players, you're suggesting that we were right not to go for them because they were too expensive for our tastes, which is necessarily a case of Levy being tight. So, who's responsible again? Poch wants players, Levy doesn't want them - no need to then go on to suggest that Poch *really, really likes* using Onomah over 25m Wijnaldum.

No I didn't. Wanyama, Janssen, and Nkoudou were very much a part of the balanced squad that I presented in my original post. Poch played Wanyama over Winks in our first three matches, because VW is a good player and is rightly ahead of HW in the pecking order. Simple.

Again, it's not a simple matter of picking one thing or another. I'm not against buying new senior pros, just as I'm not against blooding promising youngsters. I'm only concerned about striking a balance in the squad. And all I was saying is that I don't think we are that far away from striking a pretty good balance. In my original post, I actually advocated buying one more attacking midfielder like Isco or Zaha to bolster the squad.

Of course I am not saying that Winks should be our every week starting CM this season. But I like the idea of him being our 4th or 5th choice CM. Same goes for Carter-Vickers and Onomah. I'm not saying they should start every match and play 38 games per season. However, if Poch thinks they are up to starting some cup games and starting the odd Prem game here and there, then I am for that. Again, that's just my opinion, but I'm also someone whose favorite part of football is watching our homegrown lads come through.

Also, I don't think "Levy being tight" (which he often is) is the reason we didn't sign Wijnaldum. I just think it's something they considered, and ultimately they decided that an incredibly expensive deal for a decent mid-table player wasn't a good investment.

As far as Wimmer, I think if you go back and look, most of the narrative around that signing was "Ughhhh Levy. Another cheap, unknown player who isn't ready yet." I'm impressed that you knew so much about him, as I had never even heard his name before we were linked, haha. That's all I was saying.
 
Wijnaldum went for money that simply didn't stack up for our needs for a player who wouldnt make the first 11 (the first 11 would drop in quality with him in it)

Wanyama has not shown a drop in quality so far in comparison to Dier - were clearly missing Dembele or a player as good as him in his part of the partnership - that's an area of clear weakness

Similarly from what I've seen of Jansen he can lead the line and once settled in has the possibility of being as effective as Kane (a different style but equally as effective IMO)

We cannot butch players as stocking fillers just in case now or we will end up like liverpoo with some very high paid dross that no one wants (Markovic anyone)

I'd love some pace in the 3 behind Kane and maybe that's Gorgeous George if he signs

We're crying out for someone though to be Abel to step into Moussa shoes as he wont last all season
 
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