Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Pirate55]

I think you have missed the point with what is said about those players tbh - as with all our players they have good and bad points and people will comment on what the players do well and what they do badly - does pointing out Chadli needs to do more defensively mean we don't appreciate his attacking qualities? No

Does the fact Lennon and Lamela do offer something defensively mean we don't expect them to offer far more in an attacking sense? The answer of course is obvious, No

And you have missed my point. Chadli is a naturally offensive player so too are Lennon, Lamela and Townsend. The fact is with Walker behind them asked to play an overlapping winger, their natural offensive abilities which should be encouraged to shine are not as they are hamstrung by having to cover Walker's foray's forward. Result: Walker gets in great positions but can't cross for toffee. Lamela (and Lennon before him) hardly ever get into forward offensive positions and hence their lamentable goals scored and goal assist tallies. Why we are using a £30m + player as an auxiliary full back beats me.

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

And you have missed my point. Chadli is a naturally offensive player so too are Lennon, Lamela and Townsend. The fact is with Walker behind them asked to play an overlapping winger, their natural offensive abilities which should be encouraged to shine are not as they are hamstrung by having to cover Walker's foray's forward. Result: Walker gets in great positions but can't cross for toffee. Lamela (and Lennon before him) hardly ever get into forward offensive positions and hence their lamentable goals scored and goal assist tallies. Why we are using a £30m + player as an auxiliary full back beats me.

I see your point, but don't agree. I think 4-2-3-1 requires understanding between the players that they just don't have with the full backs. The same 4-2-3-1 system does nothing to dampen Hazard's offensive qualities. Likewise with Emirates Marketing Project and Silva, Nasri and now Sterling. I can't comment on Lamela's or Chadli's attacking prowess being blunted because I haven't seen either of them play any other way. However, with Lennon I think he lost his spark and determination to beat a player. I don't think the system is responsible for that.

 

[billyiddo]

And you have missed my point. Chadli is a naturally offensive player so too are Lennon, Lamela and Townsend. The fact is with Walker behind them asked to play an overlapping winger, their natural offensive abilities which should be encouraged to shine are not as they are hamstrung by having to cover Walker's foray's forward. Result: Walker gets in great positions but can't cross for toffee. Lamela (and Lennon before him) hardly ever get into forward offensive positions and hence their lamentable goals scored and goal assist tallies. Why we are using a £30m + player as an auxiliary full back beats me.

In what sense are we using our WFs as auxiliary (lol) full backs? Please explain to me what you mean by this because you keep saying it and I'm still none the wiser as to what you mean?

When our full backs are attacking the WFs come inside to more central ATTACKING positions - they don't drop in to the full back position to cover defensively - you keep saying they do this but they don't, they attack inside providing the full back with offensive options - whether they do this to the required level is up for debate.

 

[milo]

Sorry, I just don't agree. Lennon played as an out and out winger with Charlie behind him. Charlie didn't really overlap much. Walker on the other hand gets up and down like an overlapping full back as per Poch's plan. No matter who has played in front of him - Lennon, Lamela or Townsend, they have all been largely neutered as an offensive force. That is what Poch (and AVB before him) have done to our natural attacking players in the 4231 formation. Neither Lennon or Lamela are naturally "defensively minded". Their natural attacking instinct has been drilled out of them by this system. Hence my earlier comment that I would prefer to see defenders defend and attackers attack.

I think that you have misunderstood the point I was making. Our wide forwards do not typically drop back and cover the full backs when they come forward, they cut inside to make up more attacking players around the box.

If you look at heat/event maps for our attacking players, you will see that they spend the vast majority of the game in the final third.

I do not agree that Lamela and Lennon are not defensively minded. Lennon has tracked back and done a shift under pretty much every Spurs manager. We have less games and time to make a judgement on Lamela but I do not think that he has been changed from a free flowing attacking player to one who is made to toil putting in a defensive shift.

Finally, let's look at the successes of our attacking players. Each of Chadli, Eriksen and Kane have played their best football in a Spurs shirt under Poch and do not seem to fit with your argument at all.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I think that you have misunderstood the point I was making. Our wide forwards do not typically drop back and cover the full backs when they come forward, they cut inside to make up more attacking players around the box.

If you look at heat/event maps for our attacking players, you will see that they spend the vast majority of the game in the final third.

I do not agree that Lamela and Lennon are not defensively minded. Lennon has tracked back and done a shift under pretty much every Spurs manager. We have less games and time to make a judgement on Lamela but I do not think that he has been changed from a free flowing attacking player to one who is made to toil putting in a defensive shift.

Finally, let's look at the successes of our attacking players. Each of Chadli, Eriksen and Kane have played their best football in a Spurs shirt under Poch and do not seem to fit with your argument at all.

Chadli especially, who has played with overlapping fullback Rose on his side often enough and has played his best football here in Poch's system.

 

[milo]

Chadli especially, who has played with overlapping fullback Rose on his side often enough and has played his best football here in Poch's system.

Indeed

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Chadli especially, who has played with overlapping fullback Rose on his side often enough and has played his best football here in Poch's system.

Best attacking football and in a relatively short period of two season

The problem is that for all of Chadlis positives he is just as likely to dissapear in a game as he is be involved an she rarely offers and defnsive back up (not cover, back up as in make up the numbers to support your full back) so he has two glaring weaknesses which I think Poch has noticed and it's why he is looking for alternatives on that side

 

[wiziwig]

some great goals there, some truly lazy defending though, in almost every one the guy that got the final touch wasn't tracked

It's what happens when defenders are bamboozled!

Nice! This should've been in it though;

I remember that as I were in line with the goal high up on the Shelfside! I think it's in the below link too.

I want Spurs to be a little more tiki-taka with speed.

Not sure if the Emirates Marketing Project v Bayern Munich clip is speeded up.

 

[glasgowspur]

can you imagine if we did that, to many backward and side ways passes for a lot of posters on here.

 

[Jurgen the German]

can you imagine if we did that, to many backward and side ways passes for a lot of posters on here.

That to me is beautiful football. But there has to be an end product, just passing it around for the sake of it like we did under AVB at times without threatening is just dull.

 

[Jurgen the German]

It's what happens when defenders are bamboozled!



I remember that as I were in line with the goal high up on the Shelfside! I think it's in the below link too.

I want Spurs to be a little more tiki-taka with speed.

Not sure if the Emirates Marketing Project v Bayern Munich clip is speeded up.

I thought it was only Arsenal that played football that way?

 

[glasgowspur]

That to me is beautiful football. But there has to be an end product, just passing it around for the sake of it like we did under AVB at times without threatening is just dull.

for me too, but some use the sideways pass to retain possession as just a useless stat.
AVBs was just dull. I really wanted him to do well here if only to tinkle off Chelsea, but in the end even if he did win something it wouldn't have been worth it if it meant losing our identity and watching that turgid mess.

 

[Pirate55]

I think that you have misunderstood the point I was making. Our wide forwards do not typically drop back and cover the full backs when they come forward, they cut inside to make up more attacking players around the box.

If you look at heat/event maps for our attacking players, you will see that they spend the vast majority of the game in the final third.

I do not agree that Lamela and Lennon are not defensively minded. Lennon has tracked back and done a shift under pretty much every Spurs manager. We have less games and time to make a judgement on Lamela but I do not think that he has been changed from a free flowing attacking player to one who is made to toil putting in a defensive shift.

Finally, let's look at the successes of our attacking players. Each of Chadli, Eriksen and Kane have played their best football in a Spurs shirt under Poch and do not seem to fit with your argument at all.

Eriksen and Kane aren't Wide AMs in case you hadn't noticed.

Let me illustrate my point by going back to John Barnes. I think you will agree ( I hope!) that he was one of the most exciting players of his generation. He tore through defences for Watford and Liverpool, yet for England, ( with one notable exception against Brazil) he was totally ineffective. When asked why this was at the end of his career he explained it be saying Watford and Liverpool encouraged him to play to his strengths but for England he was asked to play a much more disciplined/defensively aware role. This made him an impotent offensive threat.

For me, exactly the same parallel can be applied to Lamela, Townsend and Lennon.

I really hope we sign Berhino so that with Nige we play 433 rather than the dull as dishwater 4231.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Eriksen and Kane aren't Wide AMs in case you hadn't noticed.

Let me illustrate my point by going back to John Barnes. I think you will agree ( I hope!) that he was one of the most exciting players of his generation. He tore through defences for Watford and Liverpool, yet for England, ( with one notable exception against Brazil) he was totally ineffective. When asked why this was at the end of his career he explained it be saying Watford and Liverpool encouraged him to play to his strengths but for England he was asked to play a much more disciplined/defensively aware role. This made him an impotent offensive threat.

For me, exactly the same parallel can be applied to Lamela, Townsend and Lennon.

I really hope we sign Berhino so that with Nige we play 433 rather than the dull as dishwater 4231.

I really don't think the reason we sometimes look like we have too much possession without penetrating isn't because we are playing 4231 rather than 433. Arsenal play a 4231 and look pretty good doing it.

I think the reason is we come up against some teams who, regardless of what we do, will defend deep against us. We don't, especially this early in the season when we haven't completed our business, always have the players to break them down like a very top team would. But it isn't the objective to have possession for possessions sake.

We played a 4231 against both Chelsea and Arsenal last year and looked excellent. Additionally, I think most of football now has players defending from the front and working as a complete unit, rather than having attackers attack and defenders defend.

 

[milo]

Eriksen and Kane aren't Wide AMs in case you hadn't noticed.

Let me illustrate my point by going back to John Barnes. I think you will agree ( I hope!) that he was one of the most exciting players of his generation. He tore through defences for Watford and Liverpool, yet for England, ( with one notable exception against Brazil) he was totally ineffective. When asked why this was at the end of his career he explained it be saying Watford and Liverpool encouraged him to play to his strengths but for England he was asked to play a much more disciplined/defensively aware role. This made him an impotent offensive threat.

For me, exactly the same parallel can be applied to Lamela, Townsend and Lennon.

I really hope we sign Berhino so that with Nige we play 433 rather than the dull as dishwater 4231.

Eriksen has played wide plenty of times for us. Is he stiffled when he plays there?

I am not clear of the relevance of the John Barnes story. He played in a different era, in different systems, with different tactics.

You also still haven't managed to explain what defensive duties that you think the wide right players are being asked to do that is harming their creativity because it sure as hell ain't dropping back to cover an overlapping fullback.

 

[afsoc4life]

I really don't think the reason we sometimes look like we have too much possession without penetrating isn't because we are playing 4231 rather than 433. Ar5ena1 play a 4231 and look pretty good doing it.

I think the reason is we come up against some teams who, regardless of what we do, will defend deep against us. We don't, especially this early in the season when we haven't completed our business, always have the players to break them down like a very top team would. But it isn't the objective to have possession for possessions sake.

We played a 4231 against both Chel53a and Ar5ena1 last year and looked excellent. Additionally, I think most of football now has players defending from the front and working as a complete unit, rather than having attackers attack and defenders defend.

Another reason could be the two different managers. Arsene likes flair. Poch doesnt give me the impression that he likes flair players.

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

Another reason could be the two different managers. Arsene likes flair. Poch doesnt give me the impression that he likes flair players.

“For me, it is about exciting football, pressing high, playing with flair – this is our philosophy that we want to get down. We want to put all these things in place.”“For me, it is about exciting football, pressing high, playing with flair – this is our philosophy that we want to get down. We want to put all these things in place.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/...ll-flair-philosophy-at-tottenham-9655343.html

 

[Pirate55]

Eriksen has played wide plenty of times for us. Is he stiffled when he plays there?

I am not clear of the relevance of the John Barnes story. He played in a different era, in different systems, with different tactics.

You also still haven't managed to explain what defensive duties that you think the wide right players are being asked to do that is harming their creativity because it sure as hell ain't dropping back to cover an overlapping fullback.

Lennon, Lamela, Townsend and Eriksen (when he plays on the left) are all hamstrung by the defensive duties they are asked to perform. Lennon was much much more productive at Everton, Lamela apparently was so good at Roma we paid 30million for him and Townsend looks a a different player for England. They are all good players stifled by the system we are shoehorning them into. I really hope Nige doesn't go the same way.

 

[Pirate55]

Words are cheap. I don't know what Poch means by "a freer style with good organisation". A bit of an oxymoron if you ask me. Whatever, we have seen precious little of either under Poch yet. I really hope he starts to deliver on his stated "philosophy" soon as I am getting depressed with the fare served up so far.

 

[Gazzasrightboot]

Lennon, Lamela, Townsend and Eriksen (when he plays on the left) are all hamstrung by the defensive duties they are asked to perform. Lennon was much much more productive at Everton, Lamela apparently was so good at Roma we paid 30million for him and Townsend looks a a different player for England. They are all good players stifled by the system we are shoehorning them into. I really hope Nige doesn't go the same way.

I actually think he was more productive for Spurs than he was for Everton. 1 less goal, but more assists and more key passes.

http://www.squawka.com/comparison-m...passes/pass_completion/successful_take_ons#90