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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

I'm more interested in what algorithms Mitchell has put into his black box to try to solve this problem.
 
NWND said:
DM wasn't badly needed. We finished 5th FFS. The team needed to defend better, yes, but our worst results like losing to Stoke, Saudi Sportswashing Machine and getting smashed 3-0 by Liverpool and 4-1 by Emirates Marketing Project and whatnot at the beginning of the season was WITH a DM in Vapour, who Poch decided eventually he didn't rate and ditched him for Mason. The team started playing better. Where was the option of playing a DM? We didn't have a viable one and Mason and Bentaleb worked well the majority of games. His use of Dier clearly shows he thinks it's a problem so what you say is inflexible is actually VERY flexible in that he wanted and started the season with a DM but it wasn't working so instead of persevering with his original system with inferior players he brought a kid in who was more a terrier than a DM but got us playing forward better and it worked. It was a good option knowing be couldn't buy a decent DM until next season.

He found a workable solution that got us 5th though- surely the OPPOSITE of inflexibility. He binned his entire set-up in midfield as it wasn't working.

You keep going on about inverted wingers. Can you care to explain the times Lennon played on the right wing for a period? When Townsend played on the left? When Lamela did? I was at some of those games when we played with conventional wingers.

As the guy said above too, you can't say lack of width was a massive issue last season, we didn't struggle to create or score, we were the top scorers outside the top 4. Majority of teams these days get width from their full backs and have wide forwards that cut inside. Its not a problem, it's the quality of variation that's lacking. Ie our only pace options are Lennon and Townsend, neither of whom have been consistently good for a few seasons.

N'jie signing shows Poch is aware of this too.
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Let me see if I take this in pieces

- Our defense was a shambles, in fact the 5th worst in the league, so not sure how you can say defensive cover wasn't needed (we got 5th on the back of being the only team in the league with 3 players in double figures, including one with 20+ and still only had a single digit GD). A brick DM doesn't invalidate the need for the position, like saying Soldado didn't work out, hence we don't need a striker.

- He overplayed a bunch of players who it was dreadfully obvious were not working (Ade, Kaboul, Capoue) for way too many games.

- Poch played Lennon out wide for Everton, was one of the best games we played, then he binned that idea and spent the entire fudging season trying to make one of Townsend/Lamela work, and we carried both of those players.

- width was an issue as it was never used as an OPTION. Fact is our measurement of success or failure tends to come down to very small amount of points, and game after game last season we tried to push our wingers in and pass our way through the middle (see early posters comment about a tight anus), and no matter how unsuccessful it was, we very rarely tried to switch it up.

and that's why I'm not being anti-Poch, but he isn't very flexible, nor does he seem to have much of a plan B, something that was said about him long before his Spurs time.
 
Raziel said:
Let me see if I take this in pieces

- Our defense was a shambles, in fact the 5th worst in the league, so not sure how you can say defensive cover wasn't needed (we got 5th on the back of being the only team in the league with 3 players in double figures, including one with 20+ and still only had a single digit GD). A **** DM doesn't invalidate the need for the position, like saying Soldado didn't work out, hence we don't need a striker.

- He overplayed a bunch of players who it was dreadfully obvious were not working (Ade, Kaboul, Capoue) for way too many games.

- Poch played Lennon out wide for Everton, was one of the best games we played, then he binned that idea and spent the entire fudgeing season trying to make one of Townsend/Lamela work, and we carried both of those players.

- width was an issue as it was never used as an OPTION. Fact is our measurement of success or failure tends to come down to very small amount of points, and game after game last season we tried to push our wingers in and pass our way through the middle (see early posters comment about a tight anus), and no matter how unsuccessful it was, we very rarely tried to switch it up.

and that's why I'm not being anti-Poch, but he isn't very flexible, nor does he seem to have much of a plan B, something that was said about him long before his Spurs time.
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You say he never used width as an option but in YOUR VERY POST admitted he used Lennon wide in at least one game. There you go, an option was used in a game to provide higher width in one game at least. I never said more defensive cover wasn't needed, you need to read my post again. Poch was supposedly brought in to try and get performances out of the existing purchases of summer 2013 so of course he's going to play them a lot to justify giving up on them and telling Levy he bought a bunch of brick that needs to be sold, that left him with no real DM option other than Stambouli who.only had the quality to be backup. He found a midfield solution thst brought team performances. Poch is more flexible than the majority of managers, but you are seemingly too blinkered to see it.
 
I think you're arguing two slightly different things. The key is that Raziel felt the system wasn't working and some players were clearly not up to it, so it is intensely frustrating to watch that week after week.

E.g. if Poch played Capoue up front it would demonstrate flexibility but would not be something good to watch, so would not alleviate Raziel's frustration. Or if he had played Soldado in every game up to Christmas and kept Kane on the bench, that too would have been very frustrating for a different reason.

Poch does make small adjustments, occasionally he makes good adjustments, but often things are not working and he leaves it and leaves it and leaves it and then makes a tiny adjustment when SOME fans are crying out for a bigger change to change the game radically, more often. Every one of us is different and has a different threshold for turgidity.

A few times last year we were flat and boring but somebody scored in the last second which took a massive amount of heat off Poch. Had those goals not gone in there would have been a huge bunfight, when in fact the performances were almost identical.
 
Bullet said:
I think you're arguing two slightly different things. The key is that Raziel felt the system wasn't working and some players were clearly not up to it, so it is intensely frustrating to watch that week after week.

E.g. if Poch played Capoue up front it would demonstrate flexibility but would not be something good to watch, so would not alleviate Raziel's frustration. Or if he had played Soldado in every game up to Christmas and kept Kane on the bench, that too would have been very frustrating for a different reason.

Poch does make small adjustments, occasionally he makes good adjustments, but often things are not working and he leaves it and leaves it and leaves it and then makes a tiny adjustment when SOME fans are crying out for a bigger change to change the game radically, more often. Every one of us is different and has a different threshold for turgidity.

A few times last year we were flat and boring but somebody scored in the last second which took a massive amount of heat off Poch. Had those goals not gone in there would have been a huge bunfight, when in fact the performances were almost identical.
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Thank you ..
 
Bullet said:
I think you're arguing two slightly different things. The key is that Raziel felt the system wasn't working and some players were clearly not up to it, so it is intensely frustrating to watch that week after week.

E.g. if Poch played Capoue up front it would demonstrate flexibility but would not be something good to watch, so would not alleviate Raziel's frustration. Or if he had played Soldado in every game up to Christmas and kept Kane on the bench, that too would have been very frustrating for a different reason.

Poch does make small adjustments, occasionally he makes good adjustments, but often things are not working and he leaves it and leaves it and leaves it and then makes a tiny adjustment when SOME fans are crying out for a bigger change to change the game radically, more often. Every one of us is different and has a different threshold for turgidity.

A few times last year we were flat and boring but somebody scored in the last second which took a massive amount of heat off Poch. Had those goals not gone in there would have been a huge bunfight, when in fact the performances were almost identical.
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He's arguing Pochettino is inflexible. My argument is that he isn't. So no, we're not arguing different things.

Whatever anyone's frustrations, no manager makes more than small adjustments. After all, everyone wants to build consistency, it's the only way of building a settled and consistent team performance. The idea that you should make drastic changes when something doesnt' work perfectly immediately is ridiculous. You have to give it time to see whether it definately isn't a goer.

The idea that Pochettino is inflexible is preached by many, but actually, doesn't stand up to scrutiny. I am not commenting on any other point than the flexibility of the manager. He's as flexible as a manager can be without being chaotic in my view.
 
I'd also argue that the system is clearly working, as we scored a lot of goals and finished 5th last season. The only thing that needs tweaking is the defensive solidity, something that is clearly being worked on by the manager with the defensive reinforcements, the trial of Dier as a DM and the links to DMs in the press.
 
NWND said:
I'd also argue that the system is clearly working, as we scored a lot of goals and finished 5th last season. The only thing that needs tweaking is the defensive solidity, something that is clearly being worked on by the manager with the defensive reinforcements, the trial of Dier as a DM and the links to DMs in the press.
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Mate, I think you feel I'm having a go at Poch, I'm not, I like the guy but have concerns his system has limitations

Two really key points

- The system is not clearly working, we got 5th in year that Pool, City & Manure were poor for large parts, it was one of those classic times we could/should have sneaked a 4th place.
- We struggled ourselves, heroic last minute efforts (and yes Poch's fitness regime deserves some credit) and 3 players in double figure covered over a lot of sins/cracks.
- The 5th worst defense in the league isn't something that needs tweaking, it needs a complete overhaul (which again to be fair we have bought a few defensive bits)

I go back to last season (this season we don't know as we don't have all the parts)

- From mid last season where we started with mason/bentaleb pivot, Chadli/Lamela wide and Kane upfront, what was Poch's plan B when the opposition compressed the middle?
 
Raziel said:
Mate, I think you feel I'm having a go at Poch, I'm not, I like the guy but have concerns his system has limitations

Two really key points

- The system is not clearly working, we got 5th in year that Pool, City & Manure were poor for large parts, it was one of those classic times we could/should have sneaked a 4th place.
- We struggled ourselves, heroic last minute efforts (and yes Poch's fitness regime deserves some credit) and 3 players in double figure covered over a lot of sins/cracks.
- The 5th worst defense in the league isn't something that needs tweaking, it needs a complete overhaul (which again to be fair we have bought a few defensive bits)

I go back to last season (this season we don't know as we don't have all the parts)

- From mid last season where we started with mason/bentaleb pivot, Chadli/Lamela wide and Kane upfront, what was Poch's plan B when the opposition compressed the middle?
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I agree Raziel. If we concede anything close to 50+ goals this season, I don't think 5th place will be doable, unless Kane somehow becomes even more prolific. It's almost as if people just expect the same 3 players to have identical seasons and expect Lamela to magically find some form out of nowhere.

I'm with you, I like Pochettino, but there are still issues that we need to address.
 
Jurgen the German said:
I agree Raziel. If we concede anything close to 50+ goals this season, I don't think 5th place will be doable, unless Kane somehow becomes even more prolific. It's almost as if people just expect the same 3 players to have identical seasons and expect Lamela to magically find some form out of nowhere.

I'm with you, I like Pochettino, but there are still issues that we need to address.
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By the same token are you not expecting our defence to be just as bad as last season?
 
Jurgen the German said:
I agree Raziel. If we concede anything close to 50+ goals this season, I don't think 5th place will be doable, unless Kane somehow becomes even more prolific. It's almost as if people just expect the same 3 players to have identical seasons and expect Lamela to magically find some form out of nowhere.

I'm with you, I like Pochettino, but there are still issues that we need to address.
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I'm also with him in that there are issues that needed addressing, I'm just pointing out that lack of flexibility ISNT one of them.
 
Raziel said:
Mate, I think you feel I'm having a go at Poch, I'm not, I like the guy but have concerns his system has limitations

Two really key points

- The system is not clearly working, we got 5th in year that Pool, City & Manure were poor for large parts, it was one of those classic times we could/should have sneaked a 4th place.
- We struggled ourselves, heroic last minute efforts (and yes Poch's fitness regime deserves some credit) and 3 players in double figure covered over a lot of sins/cracks.
- The 5th worst defense in the league isn't something that needs tweaking, it needs a complete overhaul (which again to be fair we have bought a few defensive bits)

I go back to last season (this season we don't know as we don't have all the parts)

- From mid last season where we started with mason/bentaleb pivot, Chadli/Lamela wide and Kane upfront, what was Poch's plan B when the opposition compressed the middle?
Click to expand...

What's anyone's plan B when the space is compressed and you're struggling to deal with massed banks of opposition? Its a difficult, competitive league and we coped better than 15 other teams last season with those problems, with a squad clearly thin on options the manager liked. 3 players got into double figures but surely that's also down to the tactics? Southampton under Poch also.had a front 3 in Lambert, Rodriguez and Lallana that contributed most of the goals.
 
Bullet said:
I think you're arguing two slightly different things. The key is that Raziel felt the system wasn't working and some players were clearly not up to it, so it is intensely frustrating to watch that week after week.

E.g. if Poch played Capoue up front it would demonstrate flexibility but would not be something good to watch, so would not alleviate Raziel's frustration. Or if he had played Soldado in every game up to Christmas and kept Kane on the bench, that too would have been very frustrating for a different reason.

Poch does make small adjustments, occasionally he makes good adjustments, but often things are not working and he leaves it and leaves it and leaves it and then makes a tiny adjustment when SOME fans are crying out for a bigger change to change the game radically, more often. Every one of us is different and has a different threshold for turgidity.

A few times last year we were flat and boring but somebody scored in the last second which took a massive amount of heat off Poch. Had those goals not gone in there would have been a huge bunfight, when in fact the performances were almost identical.
Click to expand...

I think that his biggest problem with this was how thin in terms of quality our squad was. I lost count of the number of times I looked at our bench for a game changer last season and was at a loss to find one.
 
milo said:
I think that his biggest problem with this was how thin in terms of quality our squad was. I lost count of the number of times I looked at our bench for a game changer last season and was at a loss to find one.
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Regardless of the bench depth, a coach can change a huge amount in terms of formation or instructions. Simply getting players to stay wide or shoot or push forwards more or whatever... I'm not talking about extreme measures like put Bentaleb into a back 3 and go 3-0-7... there is loads a coach can do rather than sitting back looking frustrated as we try to lick through granite.
 
NWND said:
What's anyone's plan B when the space is compressed and you're struggling to deal with massed banks of opposition? Its a difficult, competitive league and we coped better than 15 other teams last season with those problems, with a squad clearly thin on options the manager liked. 3 players got into double figures but surely that's also down to the tactics? Southampton under Poch also.had a front 3 in Lambert, Rodriguez and Lallana that contributed most of the goals.
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Agree with you NWND. The fact that we had 3 players that got into double figures is something to be celebrated yet it is being used to actually criticise the system. We were amongst the top two teams that got points from a losing position. If that doesn't show a manager or team that is able to change things then frankly I don't know what is. We did this despite having rather limited options from the bench. With the new signings and the prospective new signings, I can only see this aspect improving.

Now people will comment on the fact that this was mostly done in last minute winners etc... If that happened once or twice, I'd say it was luck. The fact that it happened as much as it did, shows something is working. Ideally, we would never be in a losing position in the first place, and Poch has obviously worked quite hard on this in the pre-season so why don't we give the team a chance, not just one game, before we start ripping it up and replacing key players that got us there.
 
NWND said:
What's anyone's plan B when the space is compressed and you're struggling to deal with massed banks of opposition? Its a difficult, competitive league and we coped better than 15 other teams last season with those problems, with a squad clearly thin on options the manager liked. 3 players got into double figures but surely that's also down to the tactics? Southampton under Poch also.had a front 3 in Lambert, Rodriguez and Lallana that contributed most of the goals.
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- Go wide in midfield to make more space, get behind defense? -> almost never used by Poch
- Use a quick player to make runs to either pull defenders or get to through ball played -> used in last preseason, never seen after
- Change the tempo of passing -> reason he brought Mason into side instead of Capoue/Stambouli/Dembele in my opinion

Again, I'm not having a fudging go at Poch, 5th was a result to be commended, as was 3 players in double figures, however

- I don't see him as a flexible manager, either tactically or with players
- Our defensive side of the game was fudging appalling, and that wasn't all to do with Kaboul/Vlad, the system is part of the issue.

Hopefully he's learning and this season will show a bit more, but lets be clear, his style mentor was limited as well.
 
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