Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Raziel]

Sorry Glorygloryeze, if I wanted Poch out, I would have no problem saying it.

Run a poll if you want, a lot of people ultimately believe Poch will not last the season, and yes I've been here before. Most of us knew when that 5th goal went in against Pool, AVB was done, we knew Ramos was done, there is generally just a negativity around the club, comments from players, media pressure, etc.

Maybe Poch can put together a great run and get the pressure off him, but make no mistake, another couple of losses (not 7) in quick succession, he will be gone.

Re Benitez, he has repeatedly said he wants to return to English football, and re me naming the next manager, that's not my job, that's Levy/Baldini's, my only input would be someone who has a bit more experience that our last 3.

 

[glorygloryeze]

You shouldn't compare us to clubs that are struggling just because they're big names. Why don't we also compare ourselves to Leeds and Nottingham Forest while we're at it?

Surely the simple point is that the clubs mentioneed - Arsenal, Everton, Manure and Liverpool - are all clubs we expect to be competeing with in the chase for top 4/5/6?? Why can't we compare ourselves wit them?

How many points are we off West Ham even?

4 points. We have had a worse first 11 games; one of the games we DID win was against them actually. After 11 games, so what?

It's still early days in the season but the overall performances of those other clubs have been better than what we have recently seen. Everton and Liverpool both still look like fairly well organised units. I think once some of their new players get sorted they'll be doing well. Liverpool are starting to look better. I saw them against Real Madrid and Chelsea and they were in both games. Man Utd are getting there, they've had a lot of changes, but the talent is there.

As you say it's still early days; Everton and Liverpool "still look fairly well organised units??" Have you seen some of Everton's defensive displays?? Even with our recent mishaps they still have conceded more than us. Why can't some of what you say about them and how "onve some of their new players get sorted" be said for us also?

Overall you can see signs of progression in those teams. I don't see us getting better, I see us getting worse. Wouldn't you agree?

Again, why can't WE get better? All teams go through bad patches and get back 'on track', why can't this be the case with us? It's not like it's the first time in living memory that we have lost 3 out of 4 league games; even Harry had those runs.

Look at my posts from when Poch got the job. You'll see I had no expectations about this season and wanted him given time. But as some have said, there's got to be something worth giving time to. There has to be signs that:

1) He's actually implementing something;

We have had good games where a system could be seen and other ganes when we've not looked good, or looked good but been undone by bad mistakes, poor luck etc. West Ham, QPR, Arsenal, Sunderland, Soton, Emirates Marketing Project, fist half vs Saudi Sportswashing Machine and patches vs Villa showed what we were trying to implement.

2) The players are with him on the journey and are trying to implement it;

He hasn't lost the whole dressing room has he? It's not like there is ZERO effort is there? Hence the players are TRYING to implement what he wants.

3) There is some kind of short-term planning to make us mildly watchable or keep us away from danger in the meantime while the implementation is going on;

We are on the same points as Liverpool, Everton and close to Manure and Arsenal. So whatever he's doing is working as well as those clubs we would consider our rivals at this juncture. If Poch should go, should Rodgers, Martinez, Wenger and LVG also go?

4) There's an improvement in some under performing player performances (e.g. supposedly Poch was brought in to improve some under performing players form, but it would appear that Vertonghen, Dembele, Paulinho and Soldado are even further away from the reckoning than e.g. under Sherwood or AVB);

Would you not say that Chadli, Rose, Naughton have improved since last year? Soldado has suffered an early injury, but has played well when startedon the whole (though of course lacking goals). Vertonghen and Dembele imo have had poor attitides and i suspect it's felt they are surplus to requirements given this attitude in comparison to their output; many fans might agree, me included. I hope Paulinho improves but i fear he may go the way of Sandro (sadly; and I hope this is NOT just because he's Barzilian.....).
Anyway, don't you think Paulinho is a waste of sapce anyway, so why would you judge a manager on the fact that he hasn't made a player that you think is **** NOT ****??

5) There is some sensible and measured comment from the manager about the situation other than "we've got to get stronger/better" which says to me "**** i don't know what is going on".

Jeez! Would you prefer him to come up with "not-me-guv" quotes? He sounds like he's not shirking and is working on improving the situation. Like a manager is paid to do.

Fair comment or not?

Sorry NWND but whilst i on the whole find your posts interesting, i am seeing a very knee-jerk pattern in your judgements now;
First you wanted AVB out after the Saudi Sportswashing Machine 1-0 home defeat last November (this time last year actually) - one of the most unfortunate defeats we've seen actually.
Then this very summer you championed Poch's appointment LIKE NO OTHER POSTER ON THE BOARD, plus saying how LONG-TERM you saw his methods panning out.
Now after 11 games - ELEVEN GAMES - you want him out. Please don't say you don't as all you've written above amounts to that - whilst imo hiding behind the "it's inevitable", "we've seen it before" phrases.

This is fickleness of the highest order imo and quite frankly shows the clearest example of why if our board follow the fans whims we will never get the chance to compete with those with so much more financial clout than us.

 

[NWND]

Surely the simple point is that the clubs mentioneed - Arsenal, Everton, Manure and Liverpool - are all clubs we expect to be competeing with in the chase for top 4/5/6?? Why can't we compare ourselves wit them?



4 points. We have had a worse first 11 games; one of the games we DID win was against them actually. After 11 games, so what?



As you say it's still early days; Everton and Liverpool "still look fairly well organised units??" Have you seen some of Everton's defensive displays?? Even with our recent mishaps they still have conceded more than us. Why can't some of what you say about them and how "onve some of their new players get sorted" be said for us also?



Again, why can't WE get better? All teams go through bad patches and get back 'on track', why can't this be the case with us? It's not like it's the first time in living memory that we have lost 3 out of 4 league games; even Harry had those runs.



We have had good games where a system could be seen and other ganes when we've not looked good, or looked good but been undone by bad mistakes, poor luck etc. West Ham, QPR, Arsenal, Sunderland, Soton, Emirates Marketing Project, fist half vs Saudi Sportswashing Machine and patches vs Villa showed what we were trying to implement.



He hasn't lost the whole dressing room has he? It's not like there is ZERO effort is there? Hence the players are TRYING to implement what he wants.



We are on the same points as Liverpool, Everton and close to Manure and Arsenal. So whatever he's doing is working as well as those clubs we would consider our rivals at this juncture. If Poch should go, should Rodgers, Martinez, Wenger and LVG also go?



Would you not say that Chadli, Rose, Naughton have improved since last year? Soldado has suffered an early injury, but has played well when startedon the whole (though of course lacking goals). Vertonghen and Dembele imo have had poor attitides and i suspect it's felt they are surplus to requirements given this attitude in comparison to their output; many fans might agree, me included. I hope Paulinho improves but i fear he may go the way of Sandro (sadly; and I hope this is NOT just because he's Barzilian.....).
Anyway, don't you think Paulinho is a waste of sapce anyway, so why would you judge a manager on the fact that he hasn't made a player that you think is **** NOT ****??



Jeez! Would you prefer him to come up with "not-me-guv" quotes? He sounds like he's not shirking and is working on improving the situation. Like a manager is paid to do.



Sorry NWND but whilst i on the whole find your posts interesting, i am seeing a very knee-jerk pattern in your judgements now;
First you wanted AVB out after the Saudi Sportswashing Machine 1-0 home defeat last November (this time last year actually) - one of the most unfortunate defeats we've seen actually.
Then this very summer you championed Poch's appointment LIKE NO OTHER POSTER ON THE BOARD, plus saying how LONG-TERM you saw his methods panning out.
Now after 11 games - ELEVEN GAMES - you want him out. Please don't say you don't as all you've written above amounts to that - whilst imo hiding behind the "it's inevitable", "we've seen it before" phrases.

This is fickleness of the highest order imo and quite frankly shows the clearest example of why if our board follow the fans whims we will never get the chance to compete with those with so much more financial clout than us.

It's not fickleness of the highest order. I'm gutted that it doesn't look like working out with Poch. For the record, I was very wary of replacing Redknapp with AVB. Just always seemed like a massive gamble. Pochettino seemed to tick so many boxes. Rather than do the simple things well like he did at Southampton from the very start, he seems like he is overcomplicating matters and we are disorganised, weak and look a very poor team.

Let's not beat around the bush, eleven games is more than adequate time to gain a genuine impression about how someone is going about their business, whether that is a player or manager.

There aren't ANY signs that this looks a good fit currently. NONE. Not in my opinion anyway. If you think this will all get turned around, then fine. I'd be delighted. I'd love to be proven right about Poch, but right now I feel like a prime mug for championing his methods so much in the summer.

I'm very worried. That's what it is, I don't WANT him out. I am just worried that the direction of the club is going backwards.

We look worse than we looked under Sherwood right now. So in that context, he is doing a poor job as he had a foundation to build on, but instead of building on it and tweaking to his own methods, he's smashed the foundation and left an almighty mess. And no, I don't think the foundation will be more solid as a result, I think the danger is that his building doesn't get finished at all!

 

[metalgear]

What chance a player revolt was AVB's undoing and a similar one is already underway? Things look the same when avb was here. Admittedly a wild hunch just based on the eerily similar performances and players body language.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Sorry Glorygloryeze, if I wanted Poch out, I would have no problem saying it.

Ok

Run a poll if you want, a lot of people ultimately believe Poch will not last the season, and yes I've been here before. Most of us knew when that 5th goal went in against Pool, AVB was done, we knew Ramos was done, there is generally just a negativity around the club, comments from players, media pressure, etc.

Let's not pretend that all those sacking were the same; AVB was top 7/8 at the time, whilst Ramos was rock bottom, no comparison AT ALL.
The only thing that connects the two managers you mentioned with our current one is that they are all of latin extraction!

Of course there is always negativity around a club when the team is on a losing run. There was negativity when AVB lost 5-2 to Arsenal after Ade's sending-off; there was negativity when Harry went on those two slumps at the end of his last two season etc etc.
Of course there will be media pressure plus comments etc. We are big news for all the media and they wil always find comments to write about in these times. Just like everything is all nice and positve when we (or most clubs) go on a winning run. That's the way football is! That DOES NOT mean that losing run automatically means the sack. We are NOT on the Oil-rich clubs and it's not a given that it has to be like this; especialy after 11 game ffs.

Maybe Poch can put together a great run and get the pressure off him, but make no mistake, another couple of losses (not 7) in quick succession, he will be gone.

I completely disagree for a variety of reasons:

1) Levy has said that this current managerial appointment will be a long-term one; unless we enter the final 10 games 2 points off the bottom 3 if Poch goes then Levy's own neck is more openly on the chopping block

2) If we get rid of yet another manager in such a short time, we end up in a situation that the THFC manager's job has the same pressure as the Chelski one, yet with far less access to player buying power. Who the hell would want to come and manage us after that, apart from the inexperienced ones you'd clearly want to avoid? The more experienced ones would either not bother and wait for the REALLY big jobs or taje a chanve with more the mind of knowing that there's a big payoff if things don't go well. I think the club does not want to get into this position.

Re Benitez, he has repeatedly said he wants to return to English football, and re me naming the next manager, that's not my job, that's Levy/Baldini's, my only input would be someone who has a bit more experience that our last 3.

Benitez saying he wants to return to English football does not translate as wanting to manage us with all our foibles imo. Hed more likely go back to Liverpool to replace Rodgers than go to us.
I agree that putting up names isn't your job :lol:
But you were able to name Benitez, so why not name others?
I suspect that it's simply that you can't off the top of your head; and i suspect this is the same with most others - including our board; hence Poch probably has to be bottom 3 by xmas and out of the EL AND League cup to be given the boot.

And whilst I see we are on a bad run, i can't see things getting THAT bad tbh

 

[glorygloryeze]

It's not fickleness of the highest order. I'm gutted that it doesn't look like working out with Poch. For the record, I was very wary of replacing Redknapp with AVB. Just always seemed like a massive gamble. Pochettino seemed to tick so many boxes. Rather than do the simple things well like he did at Southampton from the very start, he seems like he is overcomplicating matters and we are disorganised, weak and look a very poor team.

Let's not beat around the bush, eleven games is more than adequate time to gain a genuine impression about how someone is going about their business, whether that is a player or manager.

There aren't ANY signs that this looks a good fit currently. NONE. Not in my opinion anyway. If you think this will all get turned around, then fine. I'd be delighted. I'd love to be proven right about Poch, but right now I feel like a prime mug for championing his methods so much in the summer.

I'm very worried. That's what it is, I don't WANT him out. I am just worried that the direction of the club is going backwards.

We look worse than we looked under Sherwood right now. So in that context, he is doing a poor job as he had a foundation to build on, but instead of building on it and tweaking to his own methods, he's smashed the foundation and left an almighty mess. And no, I don't think the foundation will be more solid as a result, I think the danger is that his building doesn't get finished at all!

What exactly do you mean by Poch "overcomplicating things"?
In 11 games, he has won 4 and lost 5; hardly relegation material - and no different to Everton and Liverpool bar goal difference.
So there have been NO games in which we played well, and hence "it doesn't look a good fit?" I beg to differ...
We do look worse right now, but if we go on a decent run, things could look much better.

I'm curious to know whether you felt this way before the last international break before we played Emirates Marketing Project?

 

[glorygloryeze]

What chance a player revolt was AVB's undoing and a similar one is already underway? Things look the same when avb was here. Admittedly a wild hunch just based on the eerily similar performances and players body language.

It's certainly a possibility; I also think if the same underachieving players are involved (I'm looking at you Dembele and Vertonghen) then that reflect more on those players than on Poch.

I remember early on all the ITK was on how impressed the squad was with Poch....funny how things can change (according to ITK, who are claiming that Poch is now the "bad cop")..

 

[Jordinho]

It's certainly a possibility; I also think if the same underachieving players are involved (I'm looking at you Dembele and Vertonghen) then that reflect more on those players than on Poch.

I remember early on all the ITK was on how impressed the squad was with Poch....funny how things can change (according to ITK, who are claiming that Poch is now the "bad cop")..

There was ITK that he had been given license by Levy to start ****ing off some of the underachievers.

 

[90291Spur]

It's not fickleness of the highest order. I'm gutted that it doesn't look like working out with Poch. For the record, I was very wary of replacing Redknapp with AVB. Just always seemed like a massive gamble. Pochettino seemed to tick so many boxes. Rather than do the simple things well like he did at Southampton from the very start, he seems like he is overcomplicating matters and we are disorganised, weak and look a very poor team.

Let's not beat around the bush, eleven games is more than adequate time to gain a genuine impression about how someone is going about their business, whether that is a player or manager.

There aren't ANY signs that this looks a good fit currently. NONE. Not in my opinion anyway. If you think this will all get turned around, then fine. I'd be delighted. I'd love to be proven right about Poch, but right now I feel like a prime mug for championing his methods so much in the summer.

I'm very worried. That's what it is, I don't WANT him out. I am just worried that the direction of the club is going backwards.

We look worse than we looked under Sherwood right now. So in that context, he is doing a poor job as he had a foundation to build on, but instead of building on it and tweaking to his own methods, he's smashed the foundation and left an almighty mess. And no, I don't think the foundation will be more solid as a result, I think the danger is that his building doesn't get finished at all!

You managed to get rid of AVB with your I want AVB Out thread (or whatever it was called). Do the same with Poch, It worked once, it can work again. Cracking thread that, but the way.

 

[Baleforce]

I'd forgotten about that thread, I think I posted in it quite early saying it was a ridiculous proposition and levy wouldn't be so stupid as with all those new players it would take more than half a season to get the ducks in the row, turns out I was the stupid one.

 

[LCLC]

To NWND - Rodgers is a prime example of having to wait a season to see success and a philosophy take shape.

I agree that it doesn't look amazing right now but he needs two seasons to be judged otherwise his 5 year deal is a mockery.

For me to give himself time poch should sell as many flops as he can in jan (Paul, bob, chiriches, capoue) etc and throw some more youngsters into the mix.

If by the end of the season we finished 12th but another 4 academy prospects had made debuts, plus the ones in the team and on loan developed and came back, we could feel some excitement about the next season coming up with some smart additions. I fear that we won't do much better with our current first team and if he persists with certain players/formations then people will lose faith even more.

 

[Baleforce]

Yeah I'd get behind that, if poch and baldini can come to consensus on players they don't want then give them away if necessary, let's admit we made mistakes and move on.

 

[Jordinho]

Rodger's Liverpool were at their best when he ditched his philosophy and just let Sturridge and Suarez do their thing.

 

[metalgear]

Rodger's Liverpool were at their best when he ditched his philosophy and just let Sturridge and Suarez do their thing.

Players maketh the game.

Which was the real avb - with bale or without bale. I recall having some of the best moments as a fan watching bale's last season.

 

[Baleforce]

The answer is it was both, when he was available the selection accentuated his talent, when he wasn't we did things differently. Yes he was a phenomenon, but we still won games when he was out, other players scored goals too.

 

[metalgear]

The answer is it was both, when he was available the selection accentuated his talent, when he wasn't we did things differently. Yes he was a phenomenon, but we still won games when he was out, other players scored goals too.

That's right. I recall times when bale was injured but Walker featured heavily, driving the game on with pure passion, think it was Sandro and Dembele who were notable in the midfield. Everything seemed to fall apart since then but I think walkers and Sandro's long term absence had a lot to do with it, and remains unnoticed.

 

[sc25]

glorygloryeze, relax. Its not 11 games. Already explained that. If we win games its all positive? Nope, see Sherwood. Good guy to take over from, huh? Managers will want to come here, regardless. We pay the dosh. Poch didn't apply, we approached him. I don't have any particular affinity or allegiance to Poch, and I'd be surprised if anyone does. I'm not sure he does with us, either. Why would he? Strange bedfellows. One way or another, in 4 years he likely wont be with us. If he's great, he will be off, and we a stepping stone. Even if he bombs, he will get a job. If we are top half, he will name his price with someone. I don't believe anybody on this meaningless internet message board cost a manager his job at Tottenham, and from what I've seen, I'd be horrified if they did.

 

[NWND]

To NWND - Rodgers is a prime example of having to wait a season to see success and a philosophy take shape.

I agree that it doesn't look amazing right now but he needs two seasons to be judged otherwise his 5 year deal is a mockery.

For me to give himself time poch should sell as many flops as he can in jan (Paul, bob, chiriches, capoue) etc and throw some more youngsters into the mix.

If by the end of the season we finished 12th but another 4 academy prospects had made debuts, plus the ones in the team and on loan developed and came back, we could feel some excitement about the next season coming up with some smart additions. I fear that we won't do much better with our current first team and if he persists with certain players/formations then people will lose faith even more.

You could see the direction Rodgers was taking Liverpool from the first game.

The first season wasn't bad football wise and by the end of it their form was title contending.

But based on this season and AVB's second maybe both their tenures are simply a prime example of giving a manager a world class player performing at the top of their game and refusing to sell them no matter what?

 

[billyiddo]

Rodgers wasn't an instant hit at Pool by any stretch - wasn't until the Jan window that their football improved and he and them were widely mocked for the best part of his first season.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

It's not unrealistic to expect a relatively organised performance that displays early signs of a plan no matter how flawed the performance.

Even if it fell down on occasions I'd have thought we'd have seen players attempting to push high, attempting to press, attempting quick passes and direct football.

I haven't seen much else these last few games other than a disorganised mess.


Also, I'd say history has shown that generally successful managers come in and have an immediate or at least relatively quick positive impact. Whereas please name managers that have turned around very poor performances to have successful spells as manager.

Don't give me the likes of Rogers, Liverpool were playing very good football from the off under him but his defence was very vulnerable.


Sad to say Poch's reign has the hallmark of Ramos or Santini's reign where initially positive results and performances occurred as the players were sussing them out before it descended into carnage.

Luckily two of our best recent managers in Jol and Redknapp stepped in afterwards. I'm a bit worried as to who could do so this time around if Poch's reign continues as it has done recently.

There have been signs though, in the Arsenal game we went out with a very clear plan. Against QPR things clicked, against Sunderland there were signs, as with Southampton. Even in the other games we played badly there have been signs except for against Stoke when we were absolutely diabolical. You say it's Ok if it falls down on occassions. When you look over the course of the season it has fell down on occassions, yet you're saying thats not OK? The only time we have looked absolutely and completely un-organised and clueless was against Stoke. In all the other performances that have been under-par (and don't get me wrong there have been many) have shown signs of some continuity and understanding between the players.

Two managers spring to mind that have started badly and gone on to success are Bill Nicholson and Keith Burkinshaw:-". Another would be Alex Ferguson. I'd struggle to name any in the modern era because everyone who starts badly tends to get sacked before they get the chance to turn it around. Although I'm sure someone can chime in with an example or two.

I'm not sure if it was you that said it, but someone earlier said that LVG will turn it around quickly because of the quality of players they have. We are 2 points behind them, with inferior players. United's performances have been awful, why are we doomed because after 11 league games we haven't clicked fully yet, but for whatever reason United are not. We show more faith in another clubs manager and players than we do our own.

You shouldn't compare us to clubs that are struggling just because they're big names. Why don't we also compare ourselves to Leeds and Nottingham Forest while we're at it?

How many points are we off West Ham even??

Four, and we've already beat them (and Southampton who we are 11 points off) this season.

It's still early days in the season but the overall performances of those other clubs have been better than what we have recently seen. Everton and Liverpool both still look like fairly well organised units. I think once some of their new players get sorted they'll be doing well. Liverpool are starting to look better. I saw them against Real Madrid and Chelsea and they were in both games. Man Utd are getting there, they've had a lot of changes, but the talent is there.

Overall you can see signs of progression in those teams. I don't see us getting better, I see us getting worse. Wouldn't you agree??

No. I've got a lot of United fans, a lot of Liverpool fans and one Everton fan who are friends.

The United fans are all complaining that they are making the same silly defensive errors week in week out. None of them are questioning the manager yet though.

The Liverpool fans are all complaining that they are creating nothing without Suarez and that they've spent the money unwisely. Noen of them are questioning the manager yet.

The Everton fan is just happy to see them trying to play decent football. He's not questioning the manager yet.

Look at my posts from when Poch got the job. You'll see I had no expectations about this season and wanted him given time. But as some have said, there's got to be something worth giving time to. There has to be signs that:

1) He's actually implementing something;
2) The players are with him on the journey and are trying to implement it;
3) There is some kind of short-term planning to make us mildly watchable or keep us away from danger in the meantime while the implementation is going on;
4) There's an improvement in some under performing player performances (e.g. supposedly Poch was brought in to improve some under performing players form, but it would appear that Vertonghen, Dembele, Paulinho and Soldado are even further away from the reckoning than e.g. under Sherwood or AVB);
5) There is some sensible and measured comment from the manager about the situation other than "we've got to get stronger/better" which says to me "**** i don't know what is going on".

Fair comment or not?

Not fair IMO.

1) As I said above, there have been signs but in our last game for whatever reason, there were absolutely no signs whatsoever.

2) Ade, Vertonghen, Lloris have all come out in the press recently and given their support for what he's trying to do.

3) We have been watchable in the games we've played well in, and in spells of the other games bar Stoke. I'm not sure what you want his short term plan to be? Could you elaborate?

4) Chadli, Rose, Naughton, Kane have improved. Added to that he's brought Mason through. Just because they are further away from the first team squad doesn't mean that Poch has made them worse. Vertonghen's form has been on a slippery slope for a while now. I don't think Dembele or Soldado are really much further away, they've both been pretty much fringe players since AVB left and let's face it, Paulinho has been **** nomatter who's been in charge.

5) I genuinely don't care what he says in front of the cameras. He can hardly come out and say well 'here is exactly what I am going to do to put this right, I'm going to work on shape on Monday, get Kaboul heading a ball, bring in 6 sport psychiatrists and sack the tea lady' after every game that goes badly. What would you prefer he was saying? He's acknowledged things haven't been good enough, that's enough for me.