Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[LutonSpurs]

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" lang="en"><p>Problem at Spurs: the high press has disappeared. (Heatmap of defensive actions) <a href="http://t.co/EqQ6J8Gtm3">pic.twitter.com/EqQ6J8Gtm3</a></p>&mdash; Michael Caley (@MC_of_A) <a href="https://twitter.com/MC_of_A/status/532269634712788993">November 11, 2014</a></blockquote>
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[tynesidespur]

We also have a group of young players that are clearly talented. People moan about Townsend, but he looks a different player for England, where you'd think the pressure would be even higher. He looks more relaxed, more confident, he seems to make the right decisions playing for England as to when to shoot, when to pass, when to cross, when to take on his man and his shots for England tend to end up in the net rather than row Z.

You have to ask why he looks so relaxed and confident playing for England where he constantly looks like he is trying to force it when playing for Spurs. I'd also point to the fact that he looked very good under AVB at the start of last season before his injury.

Great post overall and this is an interesting bit - and absolutely on the money in my opinion. I've often thought exactly the same and maybe its an endemic problem within the club which is preventing certain individuals from performing at their best.


Regarding Paulinho - I don't really rate him at all (although at every match I went to last season he seemed to pop up with a goal). I do think that one formation that could suit him is a proper 4-3-3. There's no room for him in a 4-2-3-1 as he's not creative enough to play in the hole and doesn't work hard enough in a midfield 2. A switch to 4-3-3 could actually be of benefit to us as we’d see a more solid base in midfield – so it would be something like Dembele/Paulinho – Capoue – Mason . You’d then have two wing forwards pushed right up but wide of the main striker. I think the key difference is the 3rd midfielder – who starts from a midfield position rather than in the hole which is where Chadli/Eriksen/Lamela like to start from. It could well makes us stiffer defensively and we shouldn't lose a goal threat/output as Paulinho does seem pretty decent in scoring goals from a midfield position.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Well we've either got to make it work (by keeping practicing and improving it), or we throw everything out the window and bring in some 4-4-2 relics like Warnock, Barry, Milner, Downing and Carroll.

Poch took 9 months to get Soton performing. Rodgers took a year at Liverpool. Poch has had 11 games with us.

Why the **** do you keep on bringing up Warnock? It is absolutely baffling!!!

I also find it interesting that you mention both Barry and Milner there..... That is two players that were a part of Emirates Marketing Project premiership winning teams playing for very un British managers? With Barry now also playing successfully for another forward thinking foreign manager in a non 4-4-2 system at Everton?

Barry and Milner would walk into our starting 11 and immediately improve it in absolutely ANY formation we played. When I compare Barry's influence on the game with Capoue - by name Capoue by nature - I could almost cry.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Also as an aside many of you get FAR to worked up about formations. Typically these are quite fluid these days and there isn't too much difference between them. There is hardly a club out there that play two out and out centre forwards with the typical team having 1 central player who's only job is to attack and then two wide players who both attack and defend and another one or two central players who both attack and defend.

As I always do I refer you back the article that Martin Jol wrote in one of the broadsheets during the (I think) Germany World Cup where he explained how we in England were too obsessed with formations and that the game is really about the attacking and defensive block of a team (i.e. how many you do commit forward and how many you don't commit forward).

 

[NWND]

Why shouldn't it? There's plenty of times in the past when we've struggled to beat those teams. Without any signs of a working system in place we are 2 points behind United with the same number of games played, 3 behind Arsenal and level with Pool and Everton.

He's made some odd decisions in my eyes, and I totally agree with you that at the moment we aren't looking good. But it's not like we are sitting rock bottom of the table. Our performances, particularly at home have regressed but it's not been so bad that we are completely out of touch with those who will probably end up our rivals at the end of the season.

Yes, things need to start looking up fairly soon, but if you look at our points total relative to others in the league, we are absolutely nowhere near crisis point here.

We might have struggled to beat such teams in the past, but by struggled to beat such teams, we'd either be suckered 0-1 despite dominating the game and creating good chances(i.e. Saudi Sportswashing Machine home last season), or struggle to break the teams down despite dominating possession and end up with a 0-0 draw or 0-1 defeat if they managed to sneak a goal. Occasionally we had a bit of a horror show where it all went wrong, but it was very rare and we might talk about one a season in this regard.

What we've had this season is several home defeats against teams we should be looking to dominate, where to be honest we got what we deserved based on the overall performance and particularly against WBA and Stoke, the other team created the better chances and deserved to win on the balance of play and performance overall. Particularly against Stoke, if you said that one of those two teams were at home and finished in the top 7 last season and the other was away and finished midtable last season, you'd have picked the wrong team based on what you saw on that pitch.

 

[NWND]

Why the **** do you keep on bringing up Warnock? It is absolutely baffling!!!

I also find it interesting that you mention both Barry and Milner there..... That is two players that were a part of Emirates Marketing Project premiership winning teams playing for very un British managers? With Barry now also playing successfully for another forward thinking foreign manager in a non 4-4-2 system at Everton?

Barry and Milner would walk into our starting 11 and immediately improve it in absolutely ANY formation we played. When I compare Barry's influence on the game with Capoue - by name Capoue by nature - I could almost cry.

No doubt Barry and Milner would instantly give a very solid base for our attackers to perform. Re: Milner you also have to bear in mind that due to more talented players on the ball, he's asked to play a dog's body role for City and England which he does well and keeps things simple.

Rewind to his Villa days and he was an all-action box-to-box midfielder who dominated games and scored quite regularly from central midfield. He'd be a brilliant signing for us.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Why the **** do you keep on bringing up Warnock? It is absolutely baffling!!!

I also find it interesting that you mention both Barry and Milner there..... That is two players that were a part of Emirates Marketing Project premiership winning teams playing for very un British managers? With Barry now also playing successfully for another forward thinking foreign manager in a non 4-4-2 system at Everton?

Barry and Milner would walk into our starting 11 and immediately improve it in absolutely ANY formation we played. When I compare Barry's influence on the game with Capoue - by name Capoue by nature - I could almost cry.

Warnock's just one of the two logical candidates for the Redknapp/Sherwood fanboy phalanx to get behind (along with Pulis; Moyes now being out of the running). An old school 4-4-2 chips 'n' pies man with a 20-year track record.

Barry and Milner are just token homegrown quota players. They sum up everything that is wrong with English football at the moment - poor technique/lack of ability being overlooked because they try hard. I don't mind English players, but they've got to have technique as well as heart. Young players coming through like Barkley, Stirling, Kane and Mason are a sign that the dark ages may be coming to an end.

 

[harr1984]

No doubt Barry and Milner would instantly give a very solid base for our attackers to perform. Re: Milner you also have to bear in mind that due to more talented players on the ball, he's asked to play a dog's body role for City and England which he does well and keeps things simple.

Rewind to his Villa days and he was an all-action box-to-box midfielder who dominated games and scored quite regularly from central midfield. He'd be a brilliant signing for us.

I agree. Ive always said he is more than just a 'work horse' which I think is what a lot, if not the majority of people in this country would portray him as...

 

[Jurgen the German]

Warnock's just one of the two logical candidates for the Redknapp/Sherwood fanboy phalanx to get behind (along with Pulis; Moyes now being out of the running). An old school 4-4-2 chips 'n' pies man with a 20-year track record.

Barry and Milner are just token homegrown quota players. They sum up everything that is wrong with English football at the moment - poor technique/lack of ability being overlooked because they try hard. I don't mind English players, but they've got to have technique as well as heart. Young players coming through like Barkley, Stirling, Kane and Mason are a sign that the dark ages may be coming to an end.

I think people just want the best fit for the club, no matter which they country they were born in. Just out of interest, I remember you being quite skeptical of Redknapp when he came in i.e. serious relegation fears :lol: did you predict we'd ever finish 4th under him? I only ask because I assume you would have predicted us to finish far lower in the league under him and by finishing 4th he proved you wrong?

Btw, I would be amazed if anyone thinks Pulis would be a good fit at Spurs.

We could always go back to Christian Gross after Poch is eventually sacked within 18 months to satisfy your needs of going for a foreign coach.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

We might have struggled to beat such teams in the past, but by struggled to beat such teams, we'd either be suckered 0-1 despite dominating the game and creating good chances(i.e. Saudi Sportswashing Machine home last season), or struggle to break the teams down despite dominating possession and end up with a 0-0 draw or 0-1 defeat if they managed to sneak a goal. Occasionally we had a bit of a horror show where it all went wrong, but it was very rare and we might talk about one a season in this regard.

What we've had this season is several home defeats against teams we should be looking to dominate, where to be honest we got what we deserved based on the overall performance and particularly against WBA and Stoke, the other team created the better chances and deserved to win on the balance of play and performance overall. Particularly against Stoke, if you said that one of those two teams were at home and finished in the top 7 last season and the other was away and finished midtable last season, you'd have picked the wrong team based on what you saw on that pitch.

I agree with all you have said, but why is that so unacceptable when the majority of us accepted at the start of the season that it would take Poch time to implement his ideas, and the majority were happy with that in the belief we'd come out the other end better off. We are 3 points behind Arsenal. 2 behind United, and level with Liverpool and Everton who most would consider out closest rivals.

All of those clubs are struggling for various reasons this season, yet we're on the players and managers back already. They have been bad for the most part, Poch has made some strange decisions to our eyes, but most on here agreed to write this season off, yet here we are (again) starting the wheels in motion to get the manager we wanted to put faith in sacked when he has us sitting 3 points off Arsenal after 11 games in a league where only Chelsea have looked remotely decent so far.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Also as an aside many of you get FAR to worked up about formations. Typically these are quite fluid these days and there isn't too much difference between them. There is hardly a club out there that play two out and out centre forwards with the typical team having 1 central player who's only job is to attack and then two wide players who both attack and defend and another one or two central players who both attack and defend.

As I always do I refer you back the article that Martin Jol wrote in one of the broadsheets during the (I think) Germany World Cup where he explained how we in England were too obsessed with formations and that the game is really about the attacking and defensive block of a team (i.e. how many you do commit forward and how many you don't commit forward).

100% this.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Warnock's just one of the two logical candidates for the Redknapp/Sherwood fanboy phalanx to get behind (along with Pulis; Moyes now being out of the running). An old school 4-4-2 chips 'n' pies man with a 20-year track record.

Barry and Milner are just token homegrown quota players. They sum up everything that is wrong with English football at the moment - poor technique/lack of ability being overlooked because they try hard. I don't mind English players, but they've got to have technique as well as heart. Young players coming through like Barkley, Stirling, Kane and Mason are a sign that the dark ages may be coming to an end.

Warnock wouldn't be on any list to manage our club and you're making yourself look like a prick for trying to suggest that he would be.....

The reason why Redknapp has a 'fanboy phalanx' is because he did a bloody good job at our club. That is the reason why people might harp back to his days and say "I wish we hadn't got rid of him". Sherwood then also did a decent job in difficult circumstances after AVB had unpicked so much of Redknapp's good work. Neither Sherwood nor Redknap were 4-4-2 chips 'n' pies men - Redknapp's preferred formation was Crouch with VDV playing in an attacking midfield role, or latterly Adebayor up front with both VDV and Bale playing behind him. Sherwood also favoured only one up front with Adebayor being his man with either 3 attacking midfielders behind or a winger on one side and a player more tucked in on the other side.

By the way - I assume that if we hadn't managed to bring in Pochettino then you would've wanted us to have brought in Felix Magath?.... After all he's just the same as Poch isn't he - in terms of being a 'new school tapas and paella 4-2-3-1 man'?

Barry and Milner are not 'token homegrown quota players' They are both bloody good professionals who a lot of our squad could learn from. Are you seriously telling me you would rather have Capoue playing holding midfield for us than Barry? The fact that you don't think Milner and Barry have any technique suggests to me that perhaps you don't really actually watch the game and instead just decide that because a player is English and not playing in a sexy attacking role they must have a poor technique.

 

[LCLC]

Warnock's just one of the two logical candidates for the Redknapp/Sherwood fanboy phalanx to get behind (along with Pulis; Moyes now being out of the running). An old school 4-4-2 chips 'n' pies man with a 20-year track record.

Barry and Milner are just token homegrown quota players. They sum up everything that is wrong with English football at the moment - poor technique/lack of ability being overlooked because they try hard. I don't mind English players, but they've got to have technique as well as heart. Young players coming through like Barkley, Stirling, Kane and Mason are a sign that the dark ages may be coming to an end.

Barry and Milner have better techniques than 90% of our midfielders. Milner in particular is two footed, skillful and has end product. Do you even watch them play?

 

[sc25]

Most on here agreed to write this season off, yet here we are (again) starting the wheels in motion to get the manager we wanted to put faith in sacked.

Well things have changed a bit in footy. Clubs are not in a position to 'write off a season'. Managers (and owners and chairmen) know this. In any event, I recall things differently. I remember it like...'If we dont make Top4 thats ok, as long as we play good entertaining exciting attacking footy...win over the fans...finish around 6th or 7th or maybe Top10'.

It takes time and I hope he is given that (and is deserving of it), if possible. As far as wheels in motion, we are not in bottom 3, no need to panic, and I don't want him sacked. However, it is an ongoing evaluation. That comes with the territory in this business. He would tell you that. You can't just turn a blind eye and say no worries this year see ya next summer, or see ya in 4 windows time. People keep saying '11 games' but its more than that with cups, pre-season, tours, etc.

Anyway, he is tasked with implementing his thing but with also getting results and performances along the way. Similar to many new managers, right? Its a balancing act, and I assume his plan and strategy factors this in. I suppose the blueprint for him would be something like string some results and performances together so that we stay comfortably in top half, get to Jan window and maybe bring in a couple, win over some fans (and players?), while he fiddles around with systems and formations and evaluations. And if he does that he will keep his job and have more flexibility and I too am intrigued as to what we may then see on the other side of it in the longer term.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Well things have changed a bit in footy. Clubs are not in a position to 'write off a season'. Managers (and owners and chairmen) know this. In any event, I recall things differently. I remember it like...'If we dont make Top4 thats ok, as long as we play good entertaining exciting attacking footy...win over the fans...finish around 6th or 7th or maybe Top10'.

It does take time and I hope he is given that (and is deserving of it), if possible. As far as wheels in motion, we are not in the bottom 3, so no need to panic and I don't want him sacked. However, it is an ongoing evaluation. That comes with the territory in this business. He would tell you that. You can't just turn a blind eye and say no worries this year see ya next summer or see ya in 4 windows time. People keep saying '11 games' but its more than that with cups, pre-season, tours, etc.

Anyway, he is tasked with implementing his thing but with also getting results and performances along the way. Pretty similar to many new managers, right? Its a balancing act, and I assume his plan and strategy is factoring this in. I suppose the blueprint for him this season would be something like string some results and performances together so that we stay comfortably in the top half this season, win over some fans (and players?), while he fiddles around with systems and formations and evaluations. If he does that he will keep his job and I too am intrigued as to what we will then see on the other side of it.

Sounds like we are actually in agreement then.

Although on the 11 games point, yes it has been more than 11 games, and yes we have been bad more often than not, but we aren't out of any of the cups we are involved in and after 11 league games we are still within touching distance of our typical rivals.

In my eyes, he's currently in the very early stages of implementing his thing and he is getting results along the way, otherwise we would be far more than 3 points behind Arsenal and out of the cups.

It's just the expectations of the results he should be acheiving and the performances we should be seeing at this early stage are completely unrealistic from some people.

 

[NWND]

Sounds like we are actually in agreement then.

Although on the 11 games point, yes it has been more than 11 games, and yes we have been bad more often than not, but we aren't out of any of the cups we are involved in and after 11 league games we are still within touching distance of our typical rivals.

In my eyes, he's currently in the very early stages of implementing his thing and he is getting results along the way, otherwise we would be far more than 3 points behind Arsenal and out of the cups.

It's just the expectations of the results he should be acheiving and the performances we should be seeing at this early stage are completely unrealistic from some people.

It's not unrealistic to expect a relatively organised performance that displays early signs of a plan no matter how flawed the performance.

Even if it fell down on occasions I'd have thought we'd have seen players attempting to push high, attempting to press, attempting quick passes and direct football.

I haven't seen much else these last few games other than a disorganised mess.


Also, I'd say history has shown that generally successful managers come in and have an immediate or at least relatively quick positive impact. Whereas please name managers that have turned around very poor performances to have successful spells as manager.

Don't give me the likes of Rogers, Liverpool were playing very good football from the off under him but his defence was very vulnerable.


Sad to say Poch's reign has the hallmark of Ramos or Santini's reign where initially positive results and performances occurred as the players were sussing them out before it descended into carnage.

Luckily two of our best recent managers in Jol and Redknapp stepped in afterwards. I'm a bit worried as to who could do so this time around if Poch's reign continues as it has done recently.

 

[LutonSpurs]

One of the striking issues for me is the discipline in the double pivot. I remember early in the season Bentaleb would screen Erikson when he couldn't get back to support Rose and he would cover Rose when he was upfield. What this means is that Erikson would cover the runner through the middle where the DM has moved away from. This and many other basics rules of a 4-2-3-1 with pushed up full backs. It seems the team are not doing these simple things very well.

Poch has to be telling them. They did it in the past to some extent. Why are they not doing it now?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Warnock wouldn't be on any list to manage our club and you're making yourself look like a prick for trying to suggest that he would be.....

The reason why Redknapp has a 'fanboy phalanx' is because he did a bloody good job at our club. That is the reason why people might harp back to his days and say "I wish we hadn't got rid of him". Sherwood then also did a decent job in difficult circumstances after AVB had unpicked so much of Redknapp's good work. Neither Sherwood nor Redknap were 4-4-2 chips 'n' pies men - Redknapp's preferred formation was Crouch with VDV playing in an attacking midfield role, or latterly Adebayor up front with both VDV and Bale playing behind him. Sherwood also favoured only one up front with Adebayor being his man with either 3 attacking midfielders behind or a winger on one side and a player more tucked in on the other side.

By the way - I assume that if we hadn't managed to bring in Pochettino then you would've wanted us to have brought in Felix Magath?.... After all he's just the same as Poch isn't he - in terms of being a 'new school tapas and paella 4-2-3-1 man'?

Barry and Milner are not 'token homegrown quota players' They are both bloody good professionals who a lot of our squad could learn from. Are you seriously telling me you would rather have Capoue playing holding midfield for us than Barry? The fact that you don't think Milner and Barry have any technique suggests to me that perhaps you don't really actually watch the game and instead just decide that because a player is English and not playing in a sexy attacking role they must have a poor technique.

:lol: :ross: I have a feeling both of those phrases might be used a lot in the future on GG.

 

[NWND]

I agree with all you have said, but why is that so unacceptable when the majority of us accepted at the start of the season that it would take Poch time to implement his ideas, and the majority were happy with that in the belief we'd come out the other end better off. We are 3 points behind Arsenal. 2 behind United, and level with Liverpool and Everton who most would consider out closest rivals.

All of those clubs are struggling for various reasons this season, yet we're on the players and managers back already. They have been bad for the most part, Poch has made some strange decisions to our eyes, but most on here agreed to write this season off, yet here we are (again) starting the wheels in motion to get the manager we wanted to put faith in sacked when he has us sitting 3 points off Arsenal after 11 games in a league where only Chelsea have looked remotely decent so far.

You shouldn't compare us to clubs that are struggling just because they're big names. Why don't we also compare ourselves to Leeds and Nottingham Forest while we're at it?

How many points are we off West Ham even?

It's still early days in the season but the overall performances of those other clubs have been better than what we have recently seen. Everton and Liverpool both still look like fairly well organised units. I think once some of their new players get sorted they'll be doing well. Liverpool are starting to look better. I saw them against Real Madrid and Chelsea and they were in both games. Man Utd are getting there, they've had a lot of changes, but the talent is there.

Overall you can see signs of progression in those teams. I don't see us getting better, I see us getting worse. Wouldn't you agree?

Look at my posts from when Poch got the job. You'll see I had no expectations about this season and wanted him given time. But as some have said, there's got to be something worth giving time to. There has to be signs that:

1) He's actually implementing something;
2) The players are with him on the journey and are trying to implement it;
3) There is some kind of short-term planning to make us mildly watchable or keep us away from danger in the meantime while the implementation is going on;
4) There's an improvement in some under performing player performances (e.g. supposedly Poch was brought in to improve some under performing players form, but it would appear that Vertonghen, Dembele, Paulinho and Soldado are even further away from the reckoning than e.g. under Sherwood or AVB);
5) There is some sensible and measured comment from the manager about the situation other than "we've got to get stronger/better" which says to me "**** i don't know what is going on".

Fair comment or not?

 

[glorygloryeze]

I don't want Poch out, however I at this stage believe its inevitable, we have been here before, the beginning of the manager death spiral.

re your questions

1. Someone with lots of experience, (not sub 5 years in management), preferably with a good bit of that being PL experience.

2. Answer to 2 is likely the same as 1, the safe bet would have been Benitez (and I don't like Benitez) . Other option would be another motivational manager (still experienced)

The reasons are simple, we don't have the luxury of players learning a league under a manager learning the league.

So since I answered your question, why don't you answer mine

- Do you really believe Poch will be here at the end of this season?

To answer you, yes I think Poch will be here at the end of the season. We are going through a bad spell, but a just can't see after 11 games how is going is 'inevitable'.
In fact it sounds like you WANT Poch out, but haven't got the heart/confidence to outright say so and are instead hiding behind "the writings on the wall", "it's inevitable that Levy will pull the trigger", "we've been here before" etc etc phrases.

After 11 games (ELEVEN GAMES!) I think this is ridiculous and says a lot about the sense of entitlement many fans seem to have now.

Re Benitez, why the hell would he leave a team he can almost guarantee will be in the CL/CL Qualifiers for us? Never mind his methods not fitting with our squad and the club he wont have the funds that he was always used to having when managing in the PL. His style of football will grate even more than AVB imo as well. So we'd be back in the same merry-go-round that we are trying to stay away from.

The fact that you could only name Benitez (a manager you yourself say you don't like) as someone that fitted your criteria says a lot about the risks of getting rid of our new manager after only 11 games. Even the most confident and c0cksure managers that we have a chance to attract will either not be bothered to apply (why bother when you wont get the chance to build something) or be the today/here/now managers who will demand big bucks and likely wont feel they have the time to blood any academy youngsters.

Unless we lose our next 7 or something and get tonked in every game, we are better off long-term sticking with Poch. If not, the THFC manager's seat becomes THE impossible job (that's if it's not already).