Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

[Ryan]

Well we've either got to make it work (by keeping practicing and improving it), or we throw everything out the window and bring in some 4-4-2 relics like Warnock, Barry, Milner, Downing and Carroll.

Poch took 9 months to get Soton performing. Rodgers took a year at Liverpool. Poch has had 11 games with us.

In both of those cases there were signs of progress. We've seen so far that there isn't a clear plan, we're horribly disjointed, performances are way below what we're capable of, and it's been getting progressively worse with every single game. How much longer do we continue waiting for this to click?

The atmosphere around the club hasn't been as low since Ramos, for me (even as just a short term solution) something needs to change.

I wouldn't want any new players either, irrespective of whether they are '442 relics' or not. There's no shame in implementing something simpler in the hope of being more effective. I'd be happy to see us switch to a counter attacking 442 if it sees us score more goals, win more points, and ultimately have more fun following the club

 

[sc25]

Sherwood's fumbling may have got spirited performances out of Ade, Benteleb and 1 or 2 others, but it isolated most senior players and squad confidence is yet to recover from the damage done.

If Sherwood did some 'fumbling' it wouldn't be a shock, at least not to me, given he was inserted mid-season in PL in his first managerial stint. Reckon that Levy, who of course is ultimately accountable anyway since he made the moves when he did, he likely knew Sherwood would make mistakes given his inexperience and the timing of it.

That said, young squad, many in 1st PL season, (who presumably would 'come on' in 2nd season anyway...plus then add some 'real' coaching), scoring goals, winning games, and finished 6th in PL, (Despite low confidence levels?...So, add confidence and we are Top4 team?), must be an enticing prospect for many managers to come in to, especially one of Poch' credentials. It was widely reported that this was a great opportunity for him. Which presumably is why he chose to quit Soton and come here. He must have liked what he saw (besides the contract) as he surveyed the landscape and felt and projected that he could mold and adapt quite a few of the existing (and many young) players to his style and system.

If indeed Sherwood left a lot of lasting 'baggage' (from a short 5-6 month caretaker stint?, but ok lets say for sake of discussion that he did...) then Poch would/should have been aware of it as he evaluated the opportunity, (assuming he thought it would be an issue, which I'm not convinced he did). but decided to accept the job and take it on anyway, and felt he could/would overcome it, and is now tasked - as would any manager - with doing that.

 

[milo]

But what we're doing at the moment isn't working, and more worryingly isn't showing any sign progress. AVB played in a similar way and we ground out results joylessly. We have the same joylessness now without getting points. Either we keep banging our heads against a wall with this, or we can look for another way, even in the short term

Couldn't stand Sherwood but I enjoyed his football more than anyone's over the last couple of season, and the players looked like they enjoyed it more. More pertinently it got us points.

Who's to say 442 wouldn't get the best out of our players either. All of our strikers work better with a partner so it would suit them. Townsend spent the majority of his career playing left wing and has arguably looked way more effective when he's played out there. I'm certain many of our players are capable of performing in an effective CM partnership, even Chadli looked decent in there last season.

I'd personally rather look for alternatives than sticking with this system which clearly isn't working right now

Has he? How many top flight or international games has he played there?

 

[Raziel]

Interesting that people still quote Rogers as a success example?

**** first season, brilliant 2nd season carried by arguably the world's on form striker at the time, has spent a shed load of money for a **** 3rd season so far.

Poch at Southampton is also becoming harder to qualify due to them losing a bunch of players, new manager and still outperforming us.

I think Levy has now made the exact same mistake 3 times in a rom with AVB/TS/Poch, hired somebody that is functionally learning on the job, doesn't have enough experience either all up and/or with PL.

 

[King of Norway]

Has he? How many top flight or international games has he played there?

He played there as a youth player at least. He has indeed played mostly on the right at senior level, but doesn't mean that he should. He is much better equipped to play on the left side.

Perhaps he wants to play on the right himself, but that doesn't mean that he should. If Harry Kane decides he is tired of scoring goals and wants to save them instead, that doesn't mean we should give him a few tenners and tell him to buy himself a pair of gloves.

 

[Ryan]

Has he? How many top flight or international games has he played there?

Played 100ish games on loan, most of those as a left winger.

Irrespective of level his switch to an inverted right winger is a more recent development and he's more inexperienced in that position then he is at left wing in terms of his overall career.

 

[King of Norway]

After the initial run of games where he played Adebayor and Soldado as a front two Sherwood switched back to one up top for the remainder of the season with our best performance under him, Saudi Sportswashing Machine away, being 4231 with Eriksen Bentaleb and Dembele forming the 3 (or was Chadli in there??)

I am not sure we played 4-2-3-1 in that game actually. If I recall it correctly, it was more like a 4-3-3/4-1-4-1 formation.

Capoue played deep in midfield, with Bentaleb to his left and Paulinho to his right in more advanced central midfield positions. Dembele played on the right, but Lennon was on the left. Eriksen must have been injured.

Can't believe that was a success, but it was in that game. Saudi Sportswashing Machine must have been awful

 

[Kingdawson]

We played 4-3-3 against Saudi Sportswashing Machine.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

But again, Lennon is the only player in our squad used to/suited to a 4-4-2. The rest have all been educated to play in more modern systems. Why would you want to throw something so foreign to them at them? Just because pub sides in this country still play it, it doesn't mean that anyone anywhere in the world does.

It's alright to say - play Lamela on his orthodox (left) side. But apparently he hates it. Chadli, Townsend and Eriksen too genuinely prefer playing on their inverted side - they've been doing it for 10-15 years.

We also have no-one bar maybe Paulinho who could play in the second CM position in a 4-4-2. We have DMs and deep ballplayers, but no-one with the engine for the box-to-box (Allen Nielsen/Jermaine Jenas) role that is required

I'm sorry but the last 3 league winner have played 4-4-2 and liverpool last season played that formation too.... There not pub sides

Paulinho isn't suitable to lace someone's boots let alone play 4-4-2 and he is a player who has spent most of his career playing in a 4-2-3-1 formation from the games I've seen

When chelsea win the league this season they will be the first side I can remember with one striker playing up top (happy to be corrected)

The reality is as I keep on saying poch will be fired if he doesn't gt the team performing before the end of the season

The club are paying him a lot of money with high expectations and time will be given for progress. But if he doesnt move to steady progress rather than revolution he won't get a chance to succeed as I believe we all want

 

[Eriktheviking]

Wow.... Blaming Sherwood for this teams lack of efforts is some going

Sherwood got some players motivated and some not

So far. Poch has struggled to get anyone motivated in comparison and the big focus seems to be mentality and ability to adapt

I could say this a hundred times and people wouldn't listen or accept it but the only way to win the payers over and the fans to a smsilat extent is to go through and evolution rather than a revolution.... Simply because he will be out the door before he has a real chance to get the squad he wants

He is better off accepting who he had and adapting the system to suit whilst acquiring players who suit the eventual system he wants to play

It's not rocket science and it's common practice in change management

I couldnt agree more, but got slates a month or so ago when i said it.

 

[Cochise]

I'm sorry but the last 3 league winner have played 4-4-2 and liverpool last season played that formation too.... There not pub sides

Paulinho isn't suitable to lace someone's boots let alone play 4-4-2 and he is a player who has spent most of his career playing in a 4-2-3-1 formation from the games I've seen

When chelsea win the league this season they will be the first side I can remember with one striker playing up top (happy to be corrected)

The reality is as I keep on saying poch will be fired if he doesn't gt the team performing before the end of the season

The club are paying him a lot of money with high expectations and time will be given for progress. But if he doesnt move to steady progress rather than revolution he won't get a chance to succeed as I believe we all want

Chelsea won it with just Drogba up top. Arsenal could be cited but it would depend on how you defined the role of Bergkamp. To some he was a striker to others he was a #10, Pires and Ljunberg also grabbed lots of goals coming in field and didn't play as typical wingers. Fergie always seemed to play with two strikers, but towards the end of the Ronaldo years Rooney was employed as a left winger so that Ronaldo could play a free role, with Nani or Park on the other wing. Outside of England, Barcelona did it without a striker, whilst Real only have Benzema.

I'm not pro 433 or against 442 etc, just think that any system can work so long as the players are flexible enough to do all the jobs required. That's why I'm not the greatest fan of 442 when you have two strikers who don't do their defensive duties (watch Liverpool last year, Suarez and Sturridge both defended when required).

 

[Baleforce]

I agree, I don't think any of our 3 are upto the defensive duties of two up

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Because short term regression should not = not even looking like we can beat West Brom, Saudi Sportswashing Machine, Stoke at home.

Poor lineups, odd/late substitutions and a distinctly unmotivated team isn't a consequence of building a system

The fact is, Poch keeps making obviously poor decisions, and that is what people question in addition to = what system? at least with AVB we saw some semblance of a high line, possession based football, triangle passing, it might have been horribly exposed against big boys but you saw what he was trying to do.

Can anyone actually explain what Poch is trying to do? using Spurs games as an example (not speculation about Southampton)?

Why shouldn't it? There's plenty of times in the past when we've struggled to beat those teams. Without any signs of a working system in place we are 2 points behind United with the same number of games played, 3 behind Arsenal and level with Pool and Everton.

He's made some odd decisions in my eyes, and I totally agree with you that at the moment we aren't looking good. But it's not like we are sitting rock bottom of the table. Our performances, particularly at home have regressed but it's not been so bad that we are completely out of touch with those who will probably end up our rivals at the end of the season.

Yes, things need to start looking up fairly soon, but if you look at our points total relative to others in the league, we are absolutely nowhere near crisis point here.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Chelsea won it with just Drogba up top. Arsenal could be cited but it would depend on how you defined the role of Bergkamp. To some he was a striker to others he was a #10, Pires and Ljunberg also grabbed lots of goals coming in field and didn't play as typical wingers. Fergie always seemed to play with two strikers, but towards the end of the Ronaldo years Rooney was employed as a left winger so that Ronaldo could play a free role, with Nani or Park on the other wing. Outside of England, Barcelona did it without a striker, whilst Real only have Benzema.

I'm not pro 433 or against 442 etc, just think that any system can work so long as the players are flexible enough to do all the jobs required. That's why I'm not the greatest fan of 442 when you have two strikers who don't do their defensive duties (watch Liverpool last year, Suarez and Sturridge both defended when required).

Chelsea are the only ones although first time they had Gudjohnsin
And second time round they played Kalou for over 20 games a season under Ancelloti

I'm not saying 4-4-2 is the answer and I agree with you that a system can work if you are the right players. My concern is those writing it off because someone else plays a different system. It's ignorant and effectively rights off 125 years worth of football in this country with the most successful teams (uk and Europe) because 4-2-3-1 is the flavour of the month so must be right.

If we had costa up front working as hard as he does off the ball and maybe a frabregas pulling strings we could possibly make it work too

One thing I would say with Chelsea's system is that they rarely have their full backs bombing in the frequency ours do. They have width from their attacking 3 going wide too which we don't at all. Oscars goal the other day was him coming in from wide and it was a cracker because he had space outside him to move into. Our 3 basically play within 10 yards of each other and we use a fraction of the available space

 

[glorygloryeze]

Interesting that people still quote Rogers as a success example?

**** first season, brilliant 2nd season carried by arguably the world's on form striker at the time, has spent a shed load of money for a **** 3rd season so far.

Poch at Southampton is also becoming harder to qualify due to them losing a bunch of players, new manager and still outperforming us.

I think Levy has now made the exact same mistake 3 times in a rom with AVB/TS/Poch, hired somebody that is functionally learning on the job, doesn't have enough experience either all up and/or with PL.

Let's just cut straight to the chase: you want Pochettino sacked now, don't you.

Ok.

So:

1) Who do you think should replace him at this juncture?

2) Who out of all who were available at the time should Levy have appointed instead of Pochettino, who would not have been "functionally learning on the job"?

Please give your reasoning in both answers

 

[DTA]

Let's just cut straight to the chase: you want Pochettino sacked now, don't you.

Ok.

So:

1) Who do you think should replace him at this juncture?

2) Who out of all who were available at the time should Levy have appointed instead of Pochettino, who would not have been "functionally learning on the job"?

Please give your reasoning in both answers

I don't think anyone wants pouch sacked now! We want it to work with him (unlike those who were against Tim from the start)... We are just worried... Not just by the results but by the performances and lack of improvement.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I don't think anyone wants pouch sacked now! We want it to work with him (unlike those who were against Tim from the start)... We are just worried... Not just by the results but by the performances and lack of improvement.

That question was to Raziel, and by how he stated that Levy "has now made the exact same mistake 3 times in a rom with AVB/TS/Poch, hired somebody that is functionally learning on the job, doesn't have enough experience either all up and/or with PL" I think it was pretty clear he wanted Poch gone.

 

[DTA]

That question was to Raziel, and by how he stated that Levy "has now made the exact same mistake 3 times in a rom with AVB/TS/Poch, hired somebody that is functionally learning on the job, doesn't have enough experience either all up and/or with PL" I think it was pretty clear he wanted Poch gone.

It would be madness to sack him now, we have to see if things improve... And i really want them to... I just don't see any evidence of it.

And to be honest I'm behind pouch only because of blind faith.

 

[Raziel]

Let's just cut straight to the chase: you want Pochettino sacked now, don't you.

Ok.

So:

1) Who do you think should replace him at this juncture?

2) Who out of all who were available at the time should Levy have appointed instead of Pochettino, who would not have been "functionally learning on the job"?

Please give your reasoning in both answers

I don't want Poch out, however I at this stage believe its inevitable, we have been here before, the beginning of the manager death spiral.

re your questions

1. Someone with lots of experience, (not sub 5 years in management), preferably with a good bit of that being PL experience.

2. Answer to 2 is likely the same as 1, the safe bet would have been Benitez (and I don't like Benitez) . Other option would be another motivational manager (still experienced)

The reasons are simple, we don't have the luxury of players learning a league under a manager learning the league.

So since I answered your question, why don't you answer mine

- Do you really believe Poch will be here at the end of this season?

 

[NWND]

I don't want Poch out, however I at this stage believe its inevitable, we have been here before, the beginning of the manager death spiral.

re your questions

1. Someone with lots of experience, (not sub 5 years in management), preferably with a good bit of that being PL experience.

2. Answer to 2 is likely the same as 1, the safe bet would have been Benitez (and I don't like Benitez) . Other option would be another motivational manager (still experienced)

The reasons are simple, we don't have the luxury of players learning a league under a manager learning the league.

So since I answered your question, why don't you answer mine

- Do you really believe Poch will be here at the end of this season?

This is it really isn't it. I feel gutted because I don't want to want Poch out. I don't want to go through another caretaker or temporary situation like last year. I don't want to go through the cycle again. I'm just worried that the writing is on the wall:

*Poor points return from a relatively straight forward fixture list;
*Rapidly deteriorating performances;
*No semblance of a plan, no evidence of what we understand to be Poch's tactics ie players not pushing high, players not pressing, or pressing only at times
*Lack of organisation, defensively horrific;
*Quotes from various players suggesting they're struggling to understand what Poch wants of them;
*Chopping and changing of line up and inability to see what Poch's best line up or formation is;

Is anyone actually confident we will get any more points in the next three fixtures based on the last three performances? Do you think if we suffer 4 defeats in a row Levy won't act? Even a point or two that would make it 7 or 8 points from 9 fixtures.