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Lionel Messi

Source?

"Pumped full of" seems purposefully over dramatic to me.

From what I've read it was a medical treatment for a medical condition. Similar have been administered to a lot of non-athletes. Pretty rough if you think someone shouldn't accept a medical treatment as a young kid because they're also a talented athlete.



You really cannot make conclusions like that. We have no way of knowing what would have happened if he hadn't been given the treatment. That's perhaps why people don't like to say it, because it's not a supported claim...

Its common knowledge - but not talked about - that Messi injected himself in the legs daily for a number of years. If you're into semantics a syringe is a type of pump.

I am not passing any judgement, or saying it was wrong. Simply that taking a banned performance drug for a number of years is not something I knew about and it must have had an effect. You wouldn't take it otherwise. Did it effect Messi as a football player - of course it did! That's not to say it was wrong just part of his history.

Then to see that HGH is almost impossible to detect and there are some rumours/ evidence about possible abuses in football....the question arises why are these rumours not investigated and put to bed?
 
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How is it scandalous? They're being open about doing this according Graham Hunter in that interview. He's not talking about something going on behind closed doors.

People hear a name of a product and associate it with completely different contexts. Unless you have extensive medical knowledge about how this was done, how do you know it's in any way comparable to what Lance Armstrong did?

I don't know enough about HGH to know for sure, but the fact that Barca are doing this openly seems to indicate that they're not doing anything worth hiding. (That's not to say that nothing sketchy hasn't ever happened, but that kind of speculation is a different question).

The stakes are so high, if people can get away with getting an advantage, then its human nature to explore that possibility. The Juve case, the French tests on hair samples, even wenger talking about red blood cells all point towards (or more) doping abuses. You can't deny that? But we should ignore it?
 
Its common knowledge - but not talked about - that Messi injected himself in the legs daily for a number of years. If you're into semantics a syringe is a type of pump.

I am not passing any judgement, or saying it was wrong. Simply that taking a banned performance drug for a number of years is not something I knew about and it must have had an effect. You wouldn't take it otherwise. Did it effect Messi as a football player - of course it did! That's not to say it was wrong just part of his history.

Then to see that HGH is almost impossible to detect and there are some rumours/ evidence about possible abuses in football....the question arises why are these rumours not investigated and put to bed?

It's talked about, but not very frequently as it's old news, and as far as I can tell most people agree that it would be much worse to deny a young boy a medical treatment than whatever it is Messi admittedly has done.

A quote from an article where they do talk about it: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1492546-lionel-messi-and-hgh-the-truth-about-the-best-footballer-in-the-world

The treatments were injections of human growth hormone. For someone with GHD, this is a life-changer, allowing them to not only develop greater height, but also help deal with a variety of internal issues, such as pituitary function, skin and teeth problems, poor vision and lower immunity.

Fact is that any journalist that tries to present a case that Messi or Barcelona did anything wrong in this case would look like an insensitive dingdonghead. It would be close to people complaining about Mabbutt taking insulin injections, although obviously not perfectly analogous.

"Banned performance drug" is a somewhat strange description. Some medications are banned in some contexts, not in others. Messi openly used this medical treatment for a medical reason. This is far away from doping.

It probably did have an effect, on his growth. If it has had any long lasting effects on muscle strength etc is a very different question. If there have been effects I'm guessing they've been fairly small. There's a reason why Armstrong kept his doping up throughout his career, and it wasn't that doing it a while gave him the results he were after long term.

Yes I think "pumped full of" is a poor description of someone taking a daily injection for a medical problem. To return to the Mabbutt exmple are diabetics being "pumped full of insulin"? Sure, pedantically you can say that this is close to accurate, that sentence is not very descriptive of the situation for me.

The stakes are so high, if people can get away with getting an advantage, then its human nature to explore that possibility. The Juve case, the French tests on hair samples, even wenger talking about red blood cells all point towards (or more) doping abuses. You can't deny that? But we should ignore it?

What does this have to do with the Xavi example where Barca openly used a treatment form?

Please have another look at my post, the parenthesis part at the end where I say that this doesn't mean nothing sketchy hasn't been going on? What I reacted to was your description of what Graham Hunter reported as "scandalous". How does the Juve case and the others you lists make that treatment for Xavi's injuries scandalous?
 
If he was healthy and normal before the treatment, it'd be wrong and could be classed as doping. But he wasn't, he needed the treatment to be normal, and this then allowed him to use the innate ability that he has.

If he was marauding around the pitch at Usain Bolt size n speed, I might think there was something wrong with it...
 
very interesting debate here.

regardless of if he (and his teammates) are being doped currently (or in recent years), i think the messi case does raise an interesting question. its acceptable that he took the medication as a child (for honest purposes), but surely it has impacted his current footballing ability in an unnatural manner, and very possibly given him an edge that no other player was able to have.

its somewhat similar to an issue in athletics atm. where there is new evidence suggesting that the effects of past PED abuse lingers in you body for decades. ie. even after an athlete has served a 4 year ban, when he returns he will still reap the benefits of having periviously taken PEDs.
 
Is Messi playing tonight. Will have to tune in...

braineclipse if you read my original post, it is clear I appreciate it was a treatment, and while the Graham Hunter comments look likely to be inaccurate, shocking evidence from Italy, France and possibly Spain suggests there maybe serious doping in European football. If people can get away with it, they will be tempted to. If you're paid tens of thousands a week, then its not just the players, there are stacks of people who gain...and if someone else is on it...well...
 
i would think at least 50% of current players have at some point their athletic development taken something contraband, its such an ultra competitive industry so everybody is pursuing that edge. And there are so many masking agents and ways to take stuff undetected, testing is always slow to catch up with that
 
i would think at least 50% of current players have at some point their athletic development taken something contraband, its such an ultra competitive industry so everybody is pursuing that edge. And there are so many masking agents and ways to take stuff undetected, testing is always slow to catch up with that

I agree, although I think it's much higher than 50%. Drugs in high level sport must be everywhere because the money is so big. And you think about these pros, most of them will do whatever it takes to get an edge and win. For youth players, if drugs might be the difference between getting a proper contract and earning a fortune, or missing the cut, most of them will turn to drugs. The more who do it, the more others will do it so as not to fall behind.
 
The drugs and money link is an important one. Which makes one ask which sports have the most financial incentives?

Cycling and athletics seem well down the list.
 
Paul Kimmage on doping in Rugby

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rug...creates-bigger-need-for-answers-30785080.html

Dangerous obsession with size creates bigger need for answers
The reputation of a particular sport should not determine the level of suspicion, writes Paul Kimmage


"A couple of years ago I was told by a fitness trainer that an eight-week cycle of steroids could change my career. In his experience, a player that did just one cycle would maintain 60 per cent of the gains he achieved.

"To put this in perspective, and both these examples are very achievable, this is what I could have 'achieved':

"If I gained 5kg of muscle mass - even when I went off the drugs - I would keep three of those kilos. If I increased my explosiveness which allowed me to reduce my 100 metres time by one second, even if I never did another cycle of steroids, I would remain 0.6 of a second faster.

"These numbers may not seem enormous but to gain that type of edge could mean the difference between being a good player and a star, a provincial representative or an international. And we know what else would change. The base salary, the access to endorsements, image rights. Without exaggerating, the difference could mean being a journeyman or a rugby millionaire." - Paul Dearlove, former Scottish international and captain of Pau, February 2009

Five months ago, on the afternoon of June 27, Jacques Servat entered the 17th chamber of the Tribunal de Grande Instance in Paris, raised his right hand and swore to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth about his experiences with the England rugby team at the 2007 World Cup.

Servat, a captain with a special forces unit of the police ("le Groupe d'Intervention de la Gendarmerie Nationale), was appearing as a witness in the trial of Laurent Benezech, the former French international rugby player being sued for defamation by Provale, the professional rugby players union, and 134 of its players.

Servat had spent eight weeks with England during the 2007 World Cup, and had been invited by the court to recount his experiences of escorting the defending champions through the highs (the defeat of Australia and France) and lows (the defeat to South Africa) of the tournament.

One story in particular was of interest. It happened on the day after the final when a farewell ceremony was organised and his officers were presented with some gifts (signed jerseys and kit) by the team. One of them, a gym-rat, had spent hours discussing fitness with a member of the England staff and was given some food supplements the team had used during the tournament.

At first glance, the only unusual thing about these supplements was that they were "made-in-the-USA" but Servat soon discovered that they were different to any of the protein powders available in France. His officer, the gym-rat, had put on 14 kilos of muscle in 10 weeks and needed a new uniform.

It was rugby's obsession with size - big is beautiful - that had landed Benezech in court. Fifteen months earlier, on the evening of March 2, 2013, he had driven home one night after a game in Paris, shaken by what he had seen.

"C'est pas normal."

This was not the sport he loved.

"C'est pas normal."

This was not the game he'd played.

"C'est pas normal."

How were these guys so big?

Two weeks later, when he had formed an opinion and expressed it to a newspaper, the writ hit the fan. In the months that followed, he spent hundreds of hours and thousands of euros compiling evidence for the case. His first call was to Damien Ressiot of L'équipe, whose brilliant work had exposed Lance Armstrong in 2005.

Ressiot had good news and bad; the good was that he knew a lot and was prepared to help; the bad was that the 'Omerta' in rugby was worse than anything he had experienced in cycling.

Their starting point was a crossover between the two sports and a doctor called Herve Stoicheff, a student of the late Francois Bellocq, whose theories on "hormonal rebalancing" had fuelled successive French cycling teams and champions since the 1970s.

Stoicheff preferred rugby and was team doctor at Brive when they defeated Leicester in the final of the 1997 Heineken Cup. Three years later, he was sanctioned by the Medical Council for having prescribed a multitude of different products - vascular, arterial, heptatic and respiratory - to 33 healthy Brive players. Some were juniors at the Academy.

If Stoicheff was the sport's most popular doctor - he treated players from Bordeaux to Paris - Alain Camborde was its most popular trainer. At one stage, the 50-year-old from Pau had a client list of over 50 players, most of them internationals. His "dossier de presse" from 2009 makes interesting reading.

2003: Alain Camborde is convinced of the necessity to use food supplements in the physical preparation of sportsmen. He is one of the first to install a programme of nutrition and weightlifting for rugbymen like Damien Traille, Sebastien Tillous-Borde, Imanol Harinordoquy, Jerome Thion, Peio Som . . .

He has been saying it for ten years: "Nutrition is 50% of preparation."

2004: He's earning credits and working with Pau, Bayonne and some top-class sportsmen and players from the Top 14.

2007: He is invited to supervise the physical preparation and nutrition of the Argentinean Pumas for the World Cup. He leaves every week and moves from club to club working on the physical preparation of players like: Patricio Albacete, Juan Martin Hernandez, Mario Ledesma, Agustin Pichot, Rodrigo Roncero. "It's an honour for me to prepare this team," he says.

2009: He decides to commercialise his own range of food supplements under the brand name 'Physicoach Nutrition'.

But four years later, in May 2013, he was suddenly out of fashion when a newspaper (Sud-Ouest) reported that he was being investigated for the "importation and possession of prohibited goods and illegal practice as a pharmacist having, together with three other people, possessed, handed over, distributed or passed on around 30 doping products."

A month later he was given a three-month suspended prison sentence from the criminal court in Pau and fined €1,000. He was also ordered to pay €2,000 in compensation plus interest to the National Order of Pharmacists.

Felipe Contepomi, the former Leinster and Argentinean outhalf, was one of a number of prominent sportsmen questioned by Jean-Jacques Lozach that summer during a French Senate hearing on the efficiency of anti-doping:

Lozach: "A fitness coach, Monsieur Alain Camborde, was charged with illegal practice as a pharmacist and with endangering the lives of others. He was a fitness coach to the Argentine team in 2007. Did you know him?"

Contepomi: "As far as I know our training was undertaken by American coaches. Where is he from in France?"

Lozach: "From Pau."

Contepomi: "Yes, Alain, that rings a bell, from Patricio Albacete's club. But he definitely wasn't working in any official way with the Argentine team. It's true that some players take supplements which have been supplied by individual coaches. If cases of taking doping products are admitted, I maintain that very severe sanctions should be taken."

Two months ago, on September 26, three judges at the Palais du Justice in Paris decreed that Laurent Benezech had acted in good faith and ruled against Provale.

Two weeks later, on October 14, the Associated Press reported that an investigation by an anti-doping task force in Kenya had revealed that steroids had been found in supplements given to players on the national rugby sevens team.

The task force, led by Moni Wakesa, had noted "a concoction they (the coaches) gave players to drink before the beginning and end of training" and that the players would stop taking the supplements four days before competing.

Two weeks ago, Paul Kelso, the sports correspondent for Sky News, reported that more than a third of all British sports men and women currently serving doping bans in the UK are rugby union players.

"One promising player currently banned, Sam Chalmers, the son of former Scotland flyhalf Craig, told Sky News that young players are under pressure to build muscle in order to compete, tempting some into using supplements containing banned substances.

"In one case a player from Nottingham admitted importing human growth hormone. In another a Devon county age group player pleaded guilty to using testosterone.

A range of steroids are also among the drugs identified by UKAD (the UK anti-doping agency), with many of the players claiming they tested positive after taking supplements intended to help them build muscle."

Chalmers, 20, was banned for two years in 2013 after failing a test administered by the International Rugby Board (IRB) while preparing for the Under-20 World Cup. He told Sky News he took a supplement after coming under pressure from coaches to get heavier.

A day after Kelso's report, Benezech sent me an email: "My GHod! Time to wake-up England."

And Ireland? Be honest, do you really want to know?
 
Very interesting topic which gets often swept under the mattress like people have already mentioned.

Would Messi be the player he is today without HGH? NO
Is Messi a cheat? NO. I dont think he intentionally took HGH to enhance his athletisicm
Did Barcelona cheat? YES. Their intentions where always to manufactuer a top footballer

Im surprised no one questions if he is still on the treatment. As far as i know this has never been confirmed. In fact Barcelona have refused to speak about Messis treatment for a long time now. Despite this it is actually legal under fifa law for messi to take HGH to treat his condition. So I ask myself this
If Messi is still taking HGH, despite the fifa law is this right? Is this not cheating? NO in my eyes this would make both Messi and Barcelona guilty and justifies the stripping of trophies, awards, suspensions and relegations. But under fifa its ok
 
I think it is now official that Messi is not fit to tie the boot laces of Maradona. For the 3rd World Cup in a row, Messi has failed to inspire Argentina to WC glory. Don't think he will get another chance to win the WC as he will be 31 in WC 2018. He did score 4 goals in this WC but all were in the group matches. Apparently, Messi has never scored in a knockout matches of a major tournament for Argentina. That is unforgivable for a player called the best in the world. The only reason he got the best player award was because there were no outstanding players in this WC.

I think Messi badly lacks the passion and desire of Maradona to win the World Cup for his country. Look at the way Messi just standing around glumy faced after the Final. In contrast, Maradona was crying unashamedly after losing the 1990 WC Final, despite winning it in 1986. Maradona wanted to win the WC every time. Don't think Messi has any of that desire and passion. I think this lack of passion will always prevent Messi from being a great player like Maradona and Pele.

It has been proven yet again that Messi is really the poor man's Maradona. He just lack the quality and passion to lift Argentina single handedly like how Maradona used to do. And yet again, he has failed to score in a knockout matches of a major tournament for Argentina. Also, he again showed no emotion after losing another Final. For all his quality, Messi simply lacks the real passion to lift his national team. Not sure if Messi will even win a major trophy for Argentina. He is already 28, will be 31 at the 2018 WC and 29 at the next year's Copa America.
 
Without a doubt Maradona is one of the greatest players I have seen in over 50 years of watching football, Messi is todays best but I agree he not in the same class as Maradona.
 
I agree with a post by Jurgen in another thread -- that Messi is the best ever player in club football, but is behind Maradona and Zidane for International Tournament football.

Then again, he's behind Miroslav Klose in international tournament football too. I'm not sure how many would be putting Klose in their team ahead of Messi though.

It's the hyperbole around players like Maradona that gets me though. He is certainly in the conversation for best ever, but to say that "Messi isn't in his class" is nonsense that so many top football coaches (Wenger, Cruyff to name but two) would disagree with. They are in the same category, as two of the best players of all time and the best players of their generation. Discounting the European Cup/Champions league because that happens to favour Maradona is as ridiculous as discounting the World Cup/Copa America because it favours Messi.
 
I agree with a post by Jurgen in another thread -- that Messi is the best ever player in club football, but is behind Maradona and Zidane for International Tournament football.

Then again, he's behind Miroslav Klose in international tournament football too. I'm not sure how many would be putting Klose in their team ahead of Messi though.

It's the hyperbole around players like Maradona that gets me though. He is certainly in the conversation for best ever, but to say that "Messi isn't in his class" is nonsense that so many top football coaches (Wenger, Cruyff to name but two) would disagree with. They are in the same category, as two of the best players of all time and the best players of their generation. Discounting the European Cup/Champions league because that happens to favour Maradona is as ridiculous as discounting the World Cup/Copa America because it favours Messi.

Did you ever see Maradona play?
 
Did you ever see Maradona play?

I was born in 1984, so I've not seen him bar the usual highlights and a bit of USA 94. However, I wasn't aroud for World War 2 either, but I know it was bad. :p

Seeing these players play is an interesting point. I doubt many people have seen Maradona in more than ten 90-minute games. I've seen more 90 minute games from Messi in this season alone than most people would have seen of Maradona in his whole career. People will remember the 86 quarters against England and then the brace against Belgium in the semis from Maradona (he didn't score in the final, what a let-down, right?!), and I'll be surprised if they can remember another 6 games with much detail. That's not to take away from his acheivements mind you.
 
I was born in 1984, so I've not seen him bar the usual highlights and a bit of USA 94. However, I wasn't aroud for World War 2 either, but I know it was bad. :p

Seeing these players play is an interesting point. I doubt many people have seen Maradona in more than ten 90-minute games. I've seen more 90 minute games from Messi in this season alone than most people would have seen of Maradona in his whole career. People will remember the 86 quarters against England and then the brace against Belgium in the semis from Maradona (he didn't score in the final, what a let-down, right?!), and I'll be surprised if they can remember another 6 games with much detail. That's not to take away from his acheivements mind you.

There is no such thing as a one man team ( we all know that), however Maradona won the world cup for his nation and the only time I have seen another example of that was Gazza during our FA cup run in 91. They were both the main reason that those trophys were won and I honestly believe that it would have not happened if they had not been there.

Messi is a great player ( I have no doubt about that) but with Barca he has had other great players around him which helped Barca have the glory they have had anf he has never been able to lift his national team the way Maradone did in the 86 world cup. Maradona also did the same at Napoli where he was the main reason in winning the Lge title twice, before he went there no team from the south had ever won that title.

Maradona was ( imo) one of the very best and among the few who carried teams to glory.
 
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Maradona was ( imo) one of the very best and among the few who carried teams to glory.

I totally agree with you there mate, I only take issue if you say that Messi is not in his class. IMO, Messi is in the same class of player -- he just happens to have played for the best club side of his generation too. They are both among the greatest of all time and there's arguments for and against who is the best. But if Messi retired tomorrow, he would (imo) be talked of among the greatest like Maradona, Pele, Cruyff etc. etc.

Messi hasn't done what Maradona did at the 86 World Cup, and I don't think he will either to be honest. Right there, we have an all-time great hitting their absolute peak for that moment in time. Something very unique and unlikely to be matched.

But I would also say that Messi's 91 goals in a calendar year is without equal and unlikely to be seen again soon, especially when you consider most of those goals coming in one of the best leagues in the world and also the Champions League.
 
I totally agree with you there mate, I only take issue if you say that Messi is not in his class. IMO, Messi is in the same class of player -- he just happens to have played for the best club side of his generation too. They are both among the greatest of all time and there's arguments for and against who is the best. But if Messi retired tomorrow, he would (imo) be talked of among the greatest like Maradona, Pele, Cruyff etc. etc.

Messi hasn't done what Maradona did at the 86 World Cup, and I don't think he will either to be honest. Right there, we have an all-time great hitting their absolute peak for that moment in time. Something very unique and unlikely to be matched.

But I would also say that Messi's 91 goals in a calendar year is without equal and unlikely to be seen again soon, especially when you consider most of those goals coming in one of the best leagues in the world and also the Champions League.

I may have used the wrong word when saying " class ", I meant he was not as good as Maradona and it was confusing I admit to use that word. Do no get me wrong Messi is indeed up there with the best but there are a couple of players who are in a higher bracket for me ( Maradona, Pele, Zidane,), Messi is in the list that includes Cruyff, Figo, Best, etc. Still a great player but I really believe Maradona did more with lesser players around him then Messi has had at Barca.
 
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