Meh. Looks a little wooden to me.
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Lionel Messi
- Thread starter Park Lane James
- Start date
Yiddo
Ian Walker
His best season was the seaosn before last when he broke countless records, last season was not the best due to Injury but to say he has peaked is a bit premature imo.
Crab.C.Nesbitt
Bobby Mimms
He could make a good bedside cabinet when he retires
They are both great players, and in the category of top tier that have ever played the game (without excuses, they haven't let fame/partying/alcohol **** it up), it's really too bad the media and fanboys can't accept that.
Messi's challenge is he has been overhyped from a very young age (i.e. not that he is great, but that he was immediately in Maradona/Pele level), his decision to stick with one dominant club will give people a chance to question his ability to adapt and lead a group of lesser players.
For what it's worth, I'm not sure Maradona could have dealt with the media/fanboys/internet of this generation as well as Messi/Ronaldo have.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
So Messi currently stands on 249 top-flight goals in La Liga, just two behind record holder Telmo Zarra who notched his goals between 1957 and 1967...
and he'll likely eclipse that tally tonight.
He's undoubtedly phenomenal, probably the best football player the world has seen. But I'm amazed no one mentions he was pumped full of human growth hormone for years. Yes it was used as a treatment at a younger age, not used as a performance enhancer. But it is a banned performance enhancing substance in most sports.
and he'll likely eclipse that tally tonight.
He's undoubtedly phenomenal, probably the best football player the world has seen. But I'm amazed no one mentions he was pumped full of human growth hormone for years. Yes it was used as a treatment at a younger age, not used as a performance enhancer. But it is a banned performance enhancing substance in most sports.
jts1882
Dean Richards
It's a tricky one. He was given growth hormone treatment as a small child who had a growth hormone deficiency so you can easily argue it was justifiable medical treatment. Where this argument runs into difficulties is in the role Barcelona played, paying for his treatment on condition he moved to Spain. Barcelona paid for the treatment because it would enhance performance of a promising young player. As far as I know the only child in the whole world they helped with such medical treatment was a kid in Argentina with prodigious football talent. Coincidence?
On the other hand, the standout features of Messi's game are the skills and reading the game. He is a great player because of these skills, not because of the treatment. The question is could he have become the great player he is without the treatment or would he have just be a talented little player?
In the end I can't fault Messi and his parents of taking the treatment offered, both for medical and financial reasons. The role of Barcelona is the issue and it's hard to conclude that they were not involved in doping a player to help performance.
On the other hand, the standout features of Messi's game are the skills and reading the game. He is a great player because of these skills, not because of the treatment. The question is could he have become the great player he is without the treatment or would he have just be a talented little player?
In the end I can't fault Messi and his parents of taking the treatment offered, both for medical and financial reasons. The role of Barcelona is the issue and it's hard to conclude that they were not involved in doping a player to help performance.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Would he be the player he is today without the drugs? No. It promotes general growth (Messi was 4.2" when he started taking the hormones) but it also promotes muscle growth. Which is why its a banned substance. Lance Armstrong loved the stuff. Maradona was small, and they both have that strong low centre of gravity body, that can suit footballers (Lennon if he had more technical skills). Messi is superhuman because he was doped. People don't like to say it. But there it is.
Craig_J
Mido
I don't buy that much... how do you explain the superhuman Ronaldo then? A far as we know he's never had any doping but is still a phenomenal player. Is it not that unreasonable to suggest that he is just a once in a life time player just like Ronaldo?
i might be wrong, but i think spurmeup meant messi wouldnt be as good without the growth hormones (as opposed to saying that it is not possible to reach messi's level without drugs)
Craig_J
Mido
Probably not as he'd probably be a dwarf who'd have never kicked a ball professionally. Apart from the obvious growth in height can you really say that most of his level of ability is owed to the growth hormones? I don't think so. His dribbling, finishing, flair and intelligent reading of the game which make up most of his playing style can't be enhanced no matter what drugs you take. Sure they can make you faster and stronger but football requires a hell of a lot more than that. If Messi was a sprinter or a swimmer though then of course you could argue that.
we can never really know. and this is why the issue is so contentious. the drugs have not only made him taller, but probably faster, fitter and stronger too. and although i agree that his football intelligence is unlikely to have directly benefitted from the drugs, i can't but help wonder if barcelona/messi perhaps abused messi's position to take growth hormones.
and football may require more than just physical attributes, but if you can boost your phyiscal attributes, you can gain a massive advantage. maybe the kind of advantage that could make you world class
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
There is no doubt Messi's technical skills are sensational. He's had a flare for football from a very young age. But to be the best of the best, the greatest player who ever lived to some, then you have to have more than technical ability.
There are plenty of players with vision and deft skills. But they don't make your jaw drop with superman like performances. I love watching Messi. He can be on another level and of course it is not all down to drugs. Yet his development - as a player and as a specimen - are entwined with growth hormones. The combination of his amazing technical ability - to control and move a football with both feet - with power, speed and the confidence he must have had when he started to be able to be on another level, are an awesome combination.
So no its not all down to drugs, he's a brilliant technical player, but would he be as good without the hormones, in my view, no. And what amazes me is it is never talked about, almost swept under the carpet.
There are plenty of players with vision and deft skills. But they don't make your jaw drop with superman like performances. I love watching Messi. He can be on another level and of course it is not all down to drugs. Yet his development - as a player and as a specimen - are entwined with growth hormones. The combination of his amazing technical ability - to control and move a football with both feet - with power, speed and the confidence he must have had when he started to be able to be on another level, are an awesome combination.
So no its not all down to drugs, he's a brilliant technical player, but would he be as good without the hormones, in my view, no. And what amazes me is it is never talked about, almost swept under the carpet.
SpurMeUp
Les Howe
Interesting to read that its extremely hard to test for athletes taking growth hormone supplements as natural levels vary so much in people by nature.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/front_page/3101343.stm
What is human growth hormone?
Growth hormone is a powerful anabolic hormone that occurs naturally in the human body. It is produced by the pituitary gland in the brain and stimulates the growth of muscle, cartilage, and bone.
It is made throughout a person's lifetime but is more plentiful during youth. It stimulates growth in children and plays an important role in adult metabolism.
Scientists first isolated HGH in 1956. Three years later, NHS doctors began to use it in the treatment of children suffering from stunted growth.
Before the advent of genetic engineering, the only source of HGH was human corpses. The pituitary glands were removed from cadavers, processed and the hormones made available in injectable form.
Synthetic HGH can now be made in unlimited quantities in the laboratory. Its use in sport was banned in 1989 by the International Olympic Committee's medical commission.
Why might a sportsman take it?
In simple terms, to increase muscle size. Because there is a correlation between muscle size and strength, competitors in events that require power and short bursts of explosive strength would be most likely to benefit.
It also allows tired muscles to recover quicker - allowing you to train harder and more often.
But it is of far less use in endurance sports, where EPO has been favoured because it increases one's oxygen-carrying capacity and thus stamina.
Is HGH guaranteed to make you better at sport?
Not at all. There are many factors that make up sporting performance - physical strength is only one. And HGH has different effects on different people.
What are the potential side-effects?
Excess HGH in the body can cause acromegaly, a disease where the hands become spade-like in appearance as they get bigger. Growth of the facial bones causes the face to change shape too.
The jaw becomes larger, with spaces appearing between the teeth because of this, and the eyebrows become more prominent. The tongue enlarges and the skin becomes coarse and oily.
Organs like the heart, liver and kidneys will also undergo excessive growth, leading to potentially life-threatening problems - one of which is cardiomyopathy, a disease of the heart muscle.
The heart loses its ability to pump blood and, in some instances, heart rhythm is disturbed, leading to irregular heartbeats
There is also an increased risk of cancers due to the abnormal growth of cells.
What about CJD?
Creutzfeld-Jakob Disease is a side effect of the HGH that was made from the pituitary glands of dead people.
The infective agent which causes CJD resides in the brain, and using HGH in live patients ran the risk of passing on the agent. CJD has an incubation period of up to 30 years.
As a result, those who have received treatment may not know their fate for a long time. Synthetic HGH is clear of the infective agent that causes CJD.
Is HGH always used alone?
No. There is anecdotal evidence to suggest that it is sometimes used as part of a ****tail of banned drugs, sometimes with steroids.
Why is it so hard to test for?
HGH occurs naturally in the body, which makes it hard to distinguish between what is produced regardless of outside interference and what is an administered dose.
And it is almost impossible to set a blood level of HGH that would be considered unnaturally high and indicative of doping, because levels of naturally-occurring HGH can vary by more than 100-fold in response to factors such as nutritional state, sleep and exercise.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/front_page/3101343.stm
What is human growth hormone?
Growth hormone is a powerful anabolic hormone that occurs naturally in the human body. It is produced by the pituitary gland in the brain and stimulates the growth of muscle, cartilage, and bone.
It is made throughout a person's lifetime but is more plentiful during youth. It stimulates growth in children and plays an important role in adult metabolism.
Scientists first isolated HGH in 1956. Three years later, NHS doctors began to use it in the treatment of children suffering from stunted growth.
Before the advent of genetic engineering, the only source of HGH was human corpses. The pituitary glands were removed from cadavers, processed and the hormones made available in injectable form.
Synthetic HGH can now be made in unlimited quantities in the laboratory. Its use in sport was banned in 1989 by the International Olympic Committee's medical commission.
Why might a sportsman take it?
In simple terms, to increase muscle size. Because there is a correlation between muscle size and strength, competitors in events that require power and short bursts of explosive strength would be most likely to benefit.
It also allows tired muscles to recover quicker - allowing you to train harder and more often.
But it is of far less use in endurance sports, where EPO has been favoured because it increases one's oxygen-carrying capacity and thus stamina.
Is HGH guaranteed to make you better at sport?
Not at all. There are many factors that make up sporting performance - physical strength is only one. And HGH has different effects on different people.
What are the potential side-effects?
Excess HGH in the body can cause acromegaly, a disease where the hands become spade-like in appearance as they get bigger. Growth of the facial bones causes the face to change shape too.
The jaw becomes larger, with spaces appearing between the teeth because of this, and the eyebrows become more prominent. The tongue enlarges and the skin becomes coarse and oily.
Organs like the heart, liver and kidneys will also undergo excessive growth, leading to potentially life-threatening problems - one of which is cardiomyopathy, a disease of the heart muscle.
The heart loses its ability to pump blood and, in some instances, heart rhythm is disturbed, leading to irregular heartbeats
There is also an increased risk of cancers due to the abnormal growth of cells.
What about CJD?
Creutzfeld-Jakob Disease is a side effect of the HGH that was made from the pituitary glands of dead people.
The infective agent which causes CJD resides in the brain, and using HGH in live patients ran the risk of passing on the agent. CJD has an incubation period of up to 30 years.
As a result, those who have received treatment may not know their fate for a long time. Synthetic HGH is clear of the infective agent that causes CJD.
Is HGH always used alone?
No. There is anecdotal evidence to suggest that it is sometimes used as part of a ****tail of banned drugs, sometimes with steroids.
Why is it so hard to test for?
HGH occurs naturally in the body, which makes it hard to distinguish between what is produced regardless of outside interference and what is an administered dose.
And it is almost impossible to set a blood level of HGH that would be considered unnaturally high and indicative of doping, because levels of naturally-occurring HGH can vary by more than 100-fold in response to factors such as nutritional state, sleep and exercise.
Jurgen the German
Erik Thorstvedt
Some of what?
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
lack of doping questions, it came out with the Operation puerto revelations that fuentes had also been working with tennis players and football clubs in spain, then it all went quiet
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jan/29/operation-puerto-doctor-footballers-fuentes
I'm not saying Messi is one player in question here, but in Spain obvious questions around doping don't seem to be asked by the press for any sport, even Contador got off light
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/jan/29/operation-puerto-doctor-footballers-fuentes
I'm not saying Messi is one player in question here, but in Spain obvious questions around doping don't seem to be asked by the press for any sport, even Contador got off light