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Lionel Messi

I think it is now official that Messi is not fit to tie the boot laces of Maradona. For the 3rd World Cup in a row, Messi has failed to inspire Argentina to WC glory. Don't think he will get another chance to win the WC as he will be 31 in WC 2018. He did score 4 goals in this WC but all were in the group matches. Apparently, Messi has never scored in a knockout matches of a major tournament for Argentina. That is unforgivable for a player called the best in the world. The only reason he got the best player award was because there were no outstanding players in this WC.

I think Messi badly lacks the passion and desire of Maradona to win the World Cup for his country. Look at the way Messi just standing around glumy faced after the Final. In contrast, Maradona was crying unashamedly after losing the 1990 WC Final, despite winning it in 1986. Maradona wanted to win the WC every time. Don't think Messi has any of that desire and passion. I think this lack of passion will always prevent Messi from being a great player like Maradona and Pele.
 
Disagree.

First of all, writing Messi off for the 2018 World Cup at this point is frankly ridiculous! Even the 2022 World Cup might not be beyond him if he avoids serious injuries. If you're going to use the World Cup as the one measuring stick to judge a player for this kind of level at least let him play the World Cup that starts when he's 30 years old before making conclusions!

Secondly, I disagree about using World Cup glory as a necessary measuring stick here. It just seems so random. What, Palacios or Higuain takes their chances and all of a sudden Messi is an all time great on par with Maradona and Pele? Or the ref in the England - Argentina game in '86 sees the handball and some England player hacks down Maradona before he runs at the defenders and all of a sudden Maradona isn't an all time great?

Messi showed clear desire and passion with his reactions after scoring in the group stages. This was very clearly something that meant a lot to him.
 
Spurs7891 said:
I think it is now official that Messi is not fit to tie the boot laces of Maradona. For the 3rd World Cup in a row, Messi has failed to inspire Argentina to WC glory. Don't think he will get another chance to win the WC as he will be 31 in WC 2018. He did score 4 goals in this WC but all were in the group matches. Apparently, Messi has never scored in a knockout matches of a major tournament for Argentina. That is unforgivable for a player called the best in the world. The only reason he got the best player award was because there were no outstanding players in this WC.

I think Messi badly lacks the passion and desire of Maradona to win the World Cup for his country. Look at the way Messi just standing around glumy faced after the Final. In contrast, Maradona was crying unashamedly after losing the 1990 WC Final, despite winning it in 1986. Maradona wanted to win the WC every time. Don't think Messi has any of that desire and passion. I think this lack of passion will always prevent Messi from being a great player like Maradona and Pele.
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Maybe it has something to do with the fact that he moved to Spain when he was 12 years old (Club Over Country? :-k)
 
Thank you braineclipse. The amount of nonsense I've read about Messi is unreal. Yes this is the occasion to do it. These are the moments to show it and cement your legacy. But it's life everything he's done previously counts for nothing.

He was the best player for four years in a row. Unprecedented. Undisputed. He's won everything. It's so subjective. And how you can logically compare players from a bygone era is beyond me. It's completely different.

It's cool to hate Messi right now. But I think a lot of people just hate the notion of hero worship or d*ck sucking as DHSF would say.

In my mind Messi is and has been phenomenal. He deserves to be in the discussion.
 
And the passion thing does my head in. Honestly sometimes I think that image of Butcher bloodied has set us back years. Passion passion passion. Yes it's important, but ultimately good teams and players win you games. Just ask Brazil.

I do agree I loved El Diegos passion. He was mental. I loved him for it. It was his genius on the pitch that separated him from the rest, not his frigging tears
 
braineclipse said:
Disagree.

First of all, writing Messi off for the 2018 World Cup at this point is frankly ridiculous! Even the 2022 World Cup might not be beyond him if he avoids serious injuries. If you're going to use the World Cup as the one measuring stick to judge a player for this kind of level at least let him play the World Cup that starts when he's 30 years old before making conclusions!

Secondly, I disagree about using World Cup glory as a necessary measuring stick here. It just seems so random. What, Palacios or Higuain takes their chances and all of a sudden Messi is an all time great on par with Maradona and Pele? Or the ref in the England - Argentina game in '86 sees the handball and some England player hacks down Maradona before he runs at the defenders and all of a sudden Maradona isn't an all time great?

Messi showed clear desire and passion with his reactions after scoring in the group stages. This was very clearly something that meant a lot to him.
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I've laughed at the Messi/Maradona comparisons for a long time now I have to say…beyond their nationality and favored foot, they are not close. Messi is a coiled predator who springs to life in bursts. Maradona lit up everywhere he went from before the KO until hours afterwards, simply biggest he was the hugest little man I've ever personally seen on a football pitch. If he'd been stopped by the ref or a foul in '86, he'd have found another way to do the job. He was immense. And that run? I saw a similar run from him at Wembley in 1980 when we beat them 3-1. He could do it, he had huge huge balls and shoulders the size of Buenos Aires. Messi is a different character and as such cannot possibly do for his nation what Maradona did...
 
diego_maradona said:
Thank you braineclipse. The amount of nonsense I've read about Messi is unreal. Yes this is the occasion to do it. These are the moments to show it and cement your legacy. But it's life everything he's done previously counts for nothing.

He was the best player for four years in a row. Unprecedented. Undisputed. He's won everything. It's so subjective. And how you can logically compare players from a bygone era is beyond me. It's completely different.

It's cool to hate Messi right now. But I think a lot of people just hate the notion of hero worship or d*ck sucking as DHSF would say.

In my mind Messi is and has been phenomenal. He deserves to be in the discussion.
Click to expand...

I think, for me, it's obviously beyond dispute that he should be in the discussion but until he does it everywhere like Maradona did, he cannot be considered Diego's equal. Perhaps I was being harsh saying he's not 'close' in my previous post, but equally, I don't think he's better than Maradona, or even Zidane for that measure.

Personally I felt sorry for him going into the match today. He needs either a Di Maria or fit Aguero to be able to do what he does, plus he looked absolutely exhausted, drained…if I were Barca I'd give him 5 weeks off starting now!
 
diego_maradona said:
And the passion thing does my head in. Honestly sometimes I think that image of Butcher bloodied has set us back years. Passion passion passion. Yes it's important, but ultimately good teams and players win you games. Just ask Brazil.

I do agree I loved El Diegos passion. He was mental. I loved him for it. It was his genius on the pitch that separated him from the rest, not his frigging tears
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Agreed, we've essentially seen a Brazil team undone and overcome by passion in that semi-final.

I really don't see how people can look at someone's public and instant emotional reaction to a blow like losing the World Cup final and say "that's not how you're supposed to react".

thfcsteff said:
I think, for me, it's obviously beyond dispute that he should be in the discussion but until he does it everywhere like Maradona did, he cannot be considered Diego's equal. Perhaps I was being harsh saying he's not 'close' in my previous post, but equally, I don't think he's better than Maradona, or even Zidane for that measure.

Personally I felt sorry for him going into the match today. He needs either a Di Maria or fit Aguero to be able to do what he does, plus he looked absolutely exhausted, drained…if I were Barca I'd give him 5 weeks off starting now!
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The everywhere point is somewhat valid at least. But he seems to like Barcelona and they're one of the biggest clubs around, why should he leave? What would it say about him if he wanted to leave just to establish his own legacy?

On results for Barcelona, on goals scored, on performances he's one of the best ever.

Remember too as people are putting down his performances this World Cup just how much attention he's gotten on the pitch. Has James Rodgriguez, Toni Kroos, Thomas Muller etc gotten that kind of special attention by the other teams I think their World Cups would have been a lot more quiet.
 
thfcsteff said:
I think, for me, it's obviously beyond dispute that he should be in the discussion but until he does it everywhere like Maradona did, he cannot be considered Diego's equal. Perhaps I was being harsh saying he's not 'close' in my previous post, but equally, I don't think he's better than Maradona, or even Zidane for that measure.

Personally I felt sorry for him going into the match today. He needs either a Di Maria or fit Aguero to be able to do what he does, plus he looked absolutely exhausted, drained…if I were Barca I'd give him 5 weeks off starting now!
Click to expand...

It's almost impossible to quantify these things.

Different eras, opposition, facilities, coaching etc. How can Messi move? Who can afford him other than clubs owned by billionaires? If we are to use our sensible hats for a second we can all agree that it's so subjective. Who is the best? There is no right answer and it will always give us a topic of discussion that will get us all heated and passionate about.

Steff I agree with you about the differences in Messi and Maradona. They are similar in stature, nationality, running with the ball at their feet. But Diego was a true Number 10. The team flowed through him. He ran the show. Messi is a false 9. As you say he wins you the game in short bursts of genius. I maintain Messi needed a Riquelme alongside him in this tournament to truly shine. Imagine Messi and Maradona together.

You know what? Messi is f*cking special. He is an incredible talent and we need to enjoy his ability before his career is over.
 
braineclipse said:
Remember too as people are putting down his performances this World Cup just how much attention he's gotten on the pitch. Has James Rodgriguez, Toni Kroos, Thomas Muller etc gotten that kind of special attention by the other teams I think their World Cups would have been a lot more quiet.
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Absolutely this. I'm glad you mentioned that again. James as good as he was, would he have been that good with the attention? Look what happened to him when Brazil targetted him. Yes he got clattered but thats the attention you get when you become a big name. He was ultimately ineffective.
 
diego_maradona said:
It's almost impossible to quantify these things.

Different eras, opposition, facilities, coaching etc. How can Messi move? Who can afford him other than clubs owned by billionaires? If we are to use our sensible hats for a second we can all agree that it's so subjective. Who is the best? There is no right answer and it will always give us a topic of discussion that will get us all heated and passionate about.

Steff I agree with you about the differences in Messi and Maradona. They are similar in stature, nationality, running with the ball at their feet. But Diego was a true Number 10. The team flowed through him. He ran the show. Messi is a false 9. As you say he wins you the game in short bursts of genius. I maintain Messi needed a Riquelme alongside him in this tournament to truly shine. Imagine Messi and Maradona together.

You know what? Messi is f*cking special. He is an incredible talent and we need to enjoy his ability before his career is over.
Click to expand...

Agreed about them being somewhat different player types.

Yes Maradona would run games more, that was his style. But he would also score less. At least according to wikipedia Maradona never scored more than 20 league goals in a season in European club football. Messi scored 30+ in 4 consecutive seasons and 50 in a single season. But I don't see people saying that Maradona wasn't as good as Messi because he didn't score as many, nor should they.

They have different strengths and weaknesses and they play differently. Saying that Maradona would run a game whereas Messi doesn't is just one strength in one direction.
 
I think people gloss over what Cristiano and Messi do week in week out. They score. Nearly every game. over 30 goals a season in the league. Then people say yea but Spain is sh*t. Guess who are joint 2nd in the CL top scorers charts just 4 behind Raul. Yep these two.

They are phenomenal. Who the hell scores that many goals. Incredible, they are on another planet.
 
whats with the messi hate?

i don't get it at all, although i will say i'm glad Ronnie is getting left alone for a bit
 
http://www1.skysports.com/FIFA-Worl...zil-or-have-we-just-become-numb-to-his-genius

World Cup Final: Was Lionel Messi really a disappointment in Brazil or have we just become numb to his genius?


Lionel Messi was unable to give us the fitting finale as his Argentina side were beaten by Germany in the World Cup final, but Adam Bate argues the case for his greatness nevertheless.
By Adam Bate
The free-kick came in stoppage time of extra time and the ball looped high over the bar. It was miserable confirmation that there would be no coronation for Lionel Messi in the Maracana. The story had been written but the lines were fluffed – and in this business there’s always another script.

In truth, Messi’s big moment had come over an hour earlier. After expertly collecting a short pass, the Argentina No.10 ran clear down the left channel and saw his whipped shot beat Manuel Neuer only for the ball to also fly past the far post. Fine margins that some will have define a great career.

Indeed, the frustration that Messi had failed to produce the perfect narrative soon seemed to give way to anger when the losing captain was asked to receive the Golden Ball as FIFA’s outstanding player of the tournament. Understandably so given the defeat, he appeared embarrassed.

Some searched for conspiracy as the Adidas cash cow claimed an award sponsored by the company. Others suggested Messi wasn’t even the outstanding player in his own team given the considerable efforts of Javier Mascherano in midfield.


Half the Germany team seemed to have persuasive cases. And how about top scorer James Rodriguez or the unique gifts of Arjen Robben being rewarded? Before long, there was a growing sense that even tournament mascot Fuleco the armadillo would’ve been a more welcome recipient.


Perspective is difficult when expectations are so high. Messi’s brilliant performances in 2010 soon became characterised as ‘not doing it’ at a World Cup by the time only the scores and scorers were remembered. And in 2014, one wonders how quickly ‘not his best’ will be regarded as simply ‘bad’.

So it’s worth remembering that Messi was statistically superb at this World Cup. An Adidas award is one thing but the WhoScored rankings which he topped are no popularity contest, they merely reflect the fact that this is a player who does more of the difficult stuff than anyone else.

Messi created more chances than anybody at the 2014 World Cup and only Andrea Pirlo played as many through-balls. He gave us more – a lot more – completed dribbles than any other player with his tally of 46 taking him well clear of Robben’s 29.

In fact, Messi’s dribbling success bears closer comparison to Diego Maradona’s total of 50 in his annus mirabilis of 1986. That seems to sum it up. Messi’s good, but he’s not quite Diego. When it comes to being regarded as the greatest player of all time, naturally, the demands are exacting.

Maradona’s status is secure. But a middle-aged TV presenter was never going to win this Golden Ball and Messi continues to stand above his contemporaries. Far from getting the award because of who he is, it’s more likely Messi is not getting the plaudits precisely because of who he is.

Raving about it if Messi did it? Shrugging more like, numbed as we are by his brilliance. Only two players scored more than him in Brazil, but four goals still felt like a modest return for a man who once scored 73 of them in a single season.


And if the statistics leave you cold, just recall the manner in which he danced away from his markers for the decisive assist against Switzerland or the imagination required in conceiving let alone executing that pass against Belgium.

It’s cruel to be compared to Maradona. It’s crueller still to be adjudged a disappointment due to an unfavourable comparison with your own self.

Messi will be 31 when the World Cup final comes around in 2018. This was his moment and he failed to win the World Cup. But Messi is no failure. And right now, that’s worth remembering in the rush to denigrate his amazing achievements.




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statistically the best player in the tournament.
 
I think it is frankly ridiculous for anyone to say that the sole reason why Messi can't be mentioned in the same breath as Pele and Maradona is his failure to win a world cup. It is commonly acknowledged that Champions League football is stronger and more competitive that international football, and he has dominated European football for a decade. Back in the days when Pele and Maradona were competing, international football was the pinnacle and therefore their achievements at international level were elevated.

Furthermore, they both played in a time when not many games were televised, so whilst everyone knew they were great, not everybody had seen them play and thus there was still an element of surprise. Every game Messi has ever played has been televised in many countries around the world. Everybody knows what he is capable of, everyone sees it week in week out and most times even though you know what he is going to do, people struggle to stop him. He has looked exhausted this season, as a result of having another long season where as the main man he plays pretty much every game.

Every team doubles up on him. Every team roughs him up. Yet he still produces miracles in 95% of the games he plays. He is the best player I have ever seen and whilst I am too young to have watched Pele or Maradona (aside from the highlight reels) think his domestic achievements and ridiculous scoring record should put him in the same bracket as Pele, Maradona, Zidane, Ronaldo (the proper one) Di Stefano and Cruyff (the last two of whom also failed to win a world cup!).
 
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