Lionel Messi

[Jurgen the German]

Agreed, we've essentially seen a Brazil team undone and overcome by passion in that semi-final.

I really don't see how people can look at someone's public and instant emotional reaction to a blow like losing the World Cup final and say "that's not how you're supposed to react".



The everywhere point is somewhat valid at least. But he seems to like Barcelona and they're one of the biggest clubs around, why should he leave? What would it say about him if he wanted to leave just to establish his own legacy?

On results for Barcelona, on goals scored, on performances he's one of the best ever.

Remember too as people are putting down his performances this World Cup just how much attention he's gotten on the pitch. Has James Rodgriguez, Toni Kroos, Thomas Muller etc gotten that kind of special attention by the other teams I think their World Cups would have been a lot more quiet.

Completely agree. Pele only did it at club level for Santos but no one bats an eyelid.

I do think Messi needs to win the World Cup to be up there with Maradona though.

 

[Jurgen the German]

And the passion thing does my head in. Honestly sometimes I think that image of Butcher bloodied has set us back years. Passion passion passion. Yes it's important, but ultimately good teams and players win you games. Just ask Brazil.

I do agree I loved El Diegos passion. He was mental. I loved him for it. It was his genius on the pitch that separated him from the rest, not his frigging tears

+1

 

[Jurgen the German]

I think people below a certain age really need to buy some DVDs/Blu Rays/VHS cassettes of Maradona in his heyday. Winning the league with Napoli was an unbelievable achievement considering no team fro Southern Italy had won the Scudetto before that and AC Milan for example had the likes of Van Basten, Gullit, Rjikard, Maldini, Baresi and Costacurta. That achievement coupled with his World Cup win elevates him above Messi.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

I think that's the way this argument needs to be looked at, that maradona was that amazing, not that messi is not very good. Messi is unbelievable, but maradona was just the best.

A point on the messi not moving thing, I don't think anyone has suggested he should, just that it's another string to your bow if you can show the same form for another team, performing for Argentina at the same level he performs for barca would show that, no need to change clubs to prove this.

 

[milo]

Thank you braineclipse. The amount of nonsense I've read about Messi is unreal. Yes this is the occasion to do it. These are the moments to show it and cement your legacy. But it's life everything he's done previously counts for nothing.

He was the best player for four years in a row. Unprecedented. Undisputed. He's won everything. It's so subjective. And how you can logically compare players from a bygone era is beyond me. It's completely different.

It's cool to hate Messi right now. But I think a lot of people just hate the notion of hero worship or d*ck sucking as DHSF would say.

In my mind Messi is and has been phenomenal. He deserves to be in the discussion.

Messi is a phenomenal player and amongst the best of all time but for me he is currently a step below Maradona and Pele.

I get the points about the difficulty in comparing different styles of play and different eras and agree.

I do think that there is a point though that not having turned it on at a world cup so far does leave a gap on his CV like many other second tier greats.

 

[DHSF]

Just out of interest, was Pele THAT good or was he just a great finisher? Ive not seen much of him, even through highlights so I cant say but from what ive seen it seems all great finishing thats about it.

 

[jurgen lineker]

Good vid:

[video=youtube;vpjXpBLImyk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpjXpBLImyk[/video]

Styles are so remarkably similar, it's just ridiculous.

Would have been some goal if he had managed to score from that run beginning at 55s.

 

[Mumorn]

Like I've said, having a memorable international tournament shouldn't be used as marker on someone's legacy, especially in this day and age when the champions league is a lot more important for players. More competitive competition full of better players.

Is Messi is better than Maradona? Who cares. Appreciate both for what they are, superb footballers. I doubt many witnessing Messi right now even witnessed Maradona at his greatest in 86.

 

[billyiddo]

what is it with modern football fans and wanting to knock down our great players? or was it maybe the same in the past but there wasn't the platform for everyone to air their opinions?

 

[Mumorn]

what is it with modern football fans and wanting to knock down our great players? or was it maybe the same in the past but there wasn't the platform for everyone to air their opinions?

No doubt. maradona would have got **** on and probably called a poor man's Cruyff or Pele or something similar. Especially after his disgusting cheating against England.

It happens. Messi won't get his proper appreciation until he retires. I imagine the same will be when Ronaldo retirez.

 

[diego_maradona]

Also we see every game now. We scrutinize his facial expression from multiple angles. I was very young when Maradona was in his pomp but the coverage was no where near today.

Diego was just special. As others have said for Messi to even be mentioned in the same breath is quite something.

Imo I'd put ronaldo nazario in the all time greats too. But I know not many others would.

 

[Mumorn]

Also we see every game now. We scrutinize his facial expression from multiple angles. I was very young when Maradona was in his pomp but the coverage was no where near today.

Diego was just special. As others have said for Messi to even be mentioned in the same breath is quite something.

Imo I'd put ronaldo nazario in the all time greats too. But I know not many others would.

I would too. Surely he fits all criteria?

Only thing missing is CL

 

[F10]

Maradona played a total of 31 games the entire 85/86-season. Messi played 46 this season. The last 3 seasons before the WCs, Maradona played 90 games and Messi 156.

Id like to see how fresh and agile Maradona would have been playing that many games.

 

[thfcsteff]

Agreed, we've essentially seen a Brazil team undone and overcome by passion in that semi-final.

I really don't see how people can look at someone's public and instant emotional reaction to a blow like losing the World Cup final and say "that's not how you're supposed to react".



The everywhere point is somewhat valid at least. But he seems to like Barcelona and they're one of the biggest clubs around, why should he leave? What would it say about him if he wanted to leave just to establish his own legacy?

On results for Barcelona, on goals scored, on performances he's one of the best ever.

Remember too as people are putting down his performances this World Cup just how much attention he's gotten on the pitch. Has James Rodgriguez, Toni Kroos, Thomas Muller etc gotten that kind of special attention by the other teams I think their World Cups would have been a lot more quiet.

A fair point, he was attended to fastidiously, but Muller (for example) has now done it for two successive tournaments and delivered some mighty medals for a 24 year old. He finds a way to tick. Very different players, and I'd say that Messi was playing at not 100% fit and also in need of a psychological break. I'll judge Rodriguez after a couple of seasons of pressure. Look, Messi is a wonderful wonderful player, but for me, he's not the best.

 

[thfcsteff]

Maradona played a total of 31 games the entire 85/86-season. Messi played 46 this season. The last 3 seasons before the WCs, Maradona played 90 games and Messi 156.

Id like to see how fresh and agile Maradona would have been playing that many games.

Again a fair point, but think about some of the players/challenges/assaults Maradona had to survive during his career…I do think Messi was over-tired and in need of a rest. As well as the sort of team-mate support he enjoys at Barca. If I were his manager I'd give him 6 weeks off and order him to do **** all but relax...

 

[thfcsteff]

what is it with modern football fans and wanting to knock down our great players? or was it maybe the same in the past but there wasn't the platform for everyone to air their opinions?

It's always been the way.
I'd counter with whyis it that modern football fans always have to compare players/make them 'the best ever'. Why isn't it enough to just be a brilliant footballer?
Messi is that.
But Maradona was something else, he was a freak of nature in every single sense you can imagine. If Scarface and Napoleon were the same being inside Castro's body with sublime footballing skills, that's your man! Unique mate. Beyond comparison IMO, and I just think comparing Messi and Maradona is lazy and easy.

 

[thfcsteff]

Like I've said, having a memorable international tournament shouldn't be used as marker on someone's legacy, especially in this day and age when the champions league is a lot more important for players. More competitive competition full of better players.

Is Messi is better than Maradona? Who cares. Appreciate both for what they are, superb footballers. I doubt many witnessing Messi right now even witnessed Maradona at his greatest in 86.

Agree with this…I did see Maradona live in '81 as mentioned...

 

[Mumorn]

Agree with this…I did see Maradona live in '81 as mentioned...

how was it?

 

[Baleforce]

its not modern football, its modern life (blur were actually right, odious cnuts that they were) everything has a narrative, and everything must be more than what it is, i blame the rise of reality tv, no one really cares whats happening anymore, its all about the backstory

 

[diego_maradona]

A fair point, he was attended to fastidiously, but Muller (for example) has now done it for two successive tournaments and delivered some mighty medals for a 24 year old. He finds a way to tick. Very different players, and I'd say that Messi was playing at not 100% fit and also in need of a psychological break. I'll judge Rodriguez after a couple of seasons of pressure. Look, Messi is a wonderful wonderful player, but for me, he's not the best.

Messi arguably could be top scorer already in the world cup if he played in the german side in place of Muller. But that's hypothetical