Kyle Walker

[Stenno]

I have said it a number of times, if it wasn't for Walker we would have been left red faced a number of time with this high line. He may not be the best defensively but he is one of the best defenders in the prem when it comes to recovering.

And i've said it a number of times, he's usually recovering from a departed failed cross-field pass that he's made in the first place.

 

[braineclipse]

And i've said it a number of times, he's usually recovering from a departed failed cross-field pass that he's made in the first place.

So... Similar question to you as the one I asked Spur of the moment.

If it's so usual, why don't you list all the instances of that happening this season? If this is the norm it should be easy to find 5-10 examples at least, no? He's played 7 games for us just in the league....

 

[camspur]

Everyone has to have a spacegoat it appears Stenno and SotM have chosen Walker as theirs and no matter what we can prove or disprove they will counter argue regardless of their argument's worth.

For all his failings, and yes he does have some, he is by far the best fullback we have and also recovers from being out of position (or other defenders being out of position) far better than any of our other defenders.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Everyone has to have a spacegoat it appears Stenno and SotM have chosen Walker as theirs and no matter what we can prove or disprove they will counter argue regardless of their argument's worth.

For all his failings, and yes he does have some, he is by far the best fullback we have and also recovers from being out of position (or other defenders being out of position) far better than any of our other defenders.

What about the regular brain farts he lets off in big games i.e. againct Chelsea and Liverpool? I cringe every time he gets the ball in a dangerous area. He is an accident waiting to happen. Sometimes he amuses me though. With the recent influx of technically gifted players, Cactus Head has been trying out some fancy moves of his own, which inevitably conclude in his turning possession over.

 

[Jurgen the German]

So... Similar question to you as the one I asked Spur of the moment.

If it's so usual, why don't you list all the instances of that happening this season? If this is the norm it should be easy to find 5-10 examples at least, no? He's played 7 games for us just in the league....

You can't honestly expect people to remember every mistake made by every Spurs player. Unless you watch and rewatch all the games multiple times.

 

[braineclipse]

What about the regular brain farts he lets off in big games i.e. againct Chelsea and Liverpool? I cringe every time he gets the ball in a dangerous area. He is an accident waiting to happen. Sometimes he amuses me though. With the recent influx of technically gifted players, Cactus Head has been trying out some fancy moves of his own, which inevitably conclude in his turning possession over.

How regular are they these days?

You can't honestly expect people to remember every mistake made by every Spurs player. Unless you watch and rewatch all the games multiple times.

Did I say that people should be able to remember every mistake made by every Spurs player? Nope...

People are stating that he's making similar mistakes quite often. Using descriptions like usually, or it's in his DNA at this point etc. If it is so usual then I think some examples across 7-10 games should be somewhat available in people's memory.

Townsend regularly beats opponents with pace and skill, Paulinho makes regular good runs into the box, Eriksen regularly shows a great touch, Dembele regularly ghosts past a man and so on and so on. I don't think many people would disagree with these, but if someone did I think I would be able to present a couple of examples of them doing those things this season. When Palacios had his very poor run for us he did give the ball away in dangerous positions regularly and I could have pointed out examples of that almost every game. When Gomes kept making mistakes... When Parker kept slowing down our attacking play... When Gallas was making regular mistakes at centre back... and so on and so on. I don't think asking people to list some somewhat recent examples of what they claim is a regular occurrence is so out of line and I think for most players where valid criticism of their current performance is made such examples are often presented even without someone asking.

 

[Rorschach]

What about the regular brain farts he lets off in big games i.e. againct Chelsea and Liverpool? I cringe every time he gets the ball in a dangerous area. He is an accident waiting to happen. Sometimes he amuses me though. With the recent influx of technically gifted players, Cactus Head has been trying out some fancy moves of his own, which inevitably conclude in his turning possession over.

I think you are being a little harsh on the lad. In my opinion the entire defence have suffered with farting brains -k) at one point or another this season. Walker really has been no better or worse than the rest of them. The drive he shows and ability to recover his position after an attack really has served us very well.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

How regular are they these days?



Did I say that people should be able to remember every mistake made by every Spurs player? Nope...

People are stating that he's making similar mistakes quite often. Using descriptions like usually, or it's in his DNA at this point etc. If it is so usual then I think some examples across 7-10 games should be somewhat available in people's memory.

Townsend regularly beats opponents with pace and skill, Paulinho makes regular good runs into the box, Eriksen regularly shows a great touch, Dembele regularly ghosts past a man and so on and so on. I don't think many people would disagree with these, but if someone did I think I would be able to present a couple of examples of them doing those things this season. When Palacios had his very poor run for us he did give the ball away in dangerous positions regularly and I could have pointed out examples of that almost every game. When Gomes kept making mistakes... When Parker kept slowing down our attacking play... When Gallas was making regular mistakes at centre back... and so on and so on. I don't think asking people to list some somewhat recent examples of what they claim is a regular occurrence is so out of line and I think for most players where valid criticism of their current performance is made such examples are often presented even without someone asking.

Poor positioning led to one of the West Ham goals. He has been making plenty, but as of yet they have not resulted in goals conceded. But watch this space. He guy has no temperment for top class football. Are you his brother or something, cause I dont see what you see in him? What were you thinking when he made that rugby tackle against Liverpool last season, or when he tried to be a smart **** against Mata, who subsequently showed him up as the second rater he really is?

 

[braineclipse]

Poor positioning led to one of the West Ham goals. He has been making plenty, but as of yet they have not resulted in goals conceded. But watch this space. He guy has no temperment for top class football. Are you his brother or something, cause I dont see what you see in him? What were you thinking when he made that rugby tackle against Liverpool last season, or when he tried to be a smart **** against Mata, who subsequently showed him up as the second rater he really is?

That wasn't poor positioning (see the previous page for the discussion supporting my side of that argument).

No I'm not his brother, what kind of question is that? I think a Spurs player is receiving unfair criticism, how many more reasons do I need to defend him? Just because I disagree with you I must have some blatant bias? Nice...

Actually I was one of those most critical about him in his first full season with us (after his Villa loan) because I thought he was very unfinished. I now think he's developed and he's becoming more consistent. Yes he makes some mistakes, like most footballers and like just about every defender his age.

Same question to you. If he's been making plenty of mistakes, why not list a handful of them? Don't worry about them not leading to goals, mistakes are mistakes either way in my book.

 

[Jurgen the German]

How regular are they these days?



Did I say that people should be able to remember every mistake made by every Spurs player? Nope...

People are stating that he's making similar mistakes quite often. Using descriptions like usually, or it's in his DNA at this point etc. If it is so usual then I think some examples across 7-10 games should be somewhat available in people's memory.

Townsend regularly beats opponents with pace and skill, Paulinho makes regular good runs into the box, Eriksen regularly shows a great touch, Dembele regularly ghosts past a man and so on and so on. I don't think many people would disagree with these, but if someone did I think I would be able to present a couple of examples of them doing those things this season. When Palacios had his very poor run for us he did give the ball away in dangerous positions regularly and I could have pointed out examples of that almost every game. When Gomes kept making mistakes... When Parker kept slowing down our attacking play... When Gallas was making regular mistakes at centre back... and so on and so on. I don't think asking people to list some somewhat recent examples of what they claim is a regular occurrence is so out of line and I think for most players where valid criticism of their current performance is made such examples are often presented even without someone asking.

How long do you expect people to remember the mistakes though that was the point. Yeah I could list a few examples of Gomes making **** ups, but I can't remember every single one.

Personally I thought he was poor last Friday in the England game, and he along with Wheelchair were the worst players on the pitch in the Ukraine game. As Gilzean points out, not every mistake by players leads to goals, I noticed Dembele gave the ball away numerous times against West Ham but none of the misplaced passes lead to them scoring.

Fundamentally I don't think he is a good defender, people go on about his recovery from being out of position, surely if you're out of position all of the time then you can't be reading the game well? Also his tendancy to give away needless free kicks in dangerous positions worries me. Can he improve in these areas? Of course he can I'm not writing him off for his entire career, but right now I just can't see why so many people are defending him and seem to be happy with his general play. If he has another season like the last campaign then I believe we need to look for another right back.

 

[braineclipse]

How long do you expect people to remember the mistakes though that was the point. Yeah I could list a few examples of Gomes making **** ups, but I can't remember every single one.

Personally I thought he was poor last Friday in the England game, and he along with Wheelchair were the worst players on the pitch in the Ukraine game. As Gilzean points out, not every mistake by players leads to goals, I noticed Dembele gave the ball away numerous times against West Ham but none of the misplaced passes lead to them scoring.

Fundamentally I don't think he is a good defender, people go on about his recovery from being out of position, surely if you're out of position all of the time then you can't be reading the game well? Also his tendancy to give away needless free kicks in dangerous positions worries me. Can he improve in these areas? Of course he can I'm not writing him off for his entire career, but right now I just can't see why so many people are defending him and seem to be happy with his general play. If he has another season like the last campaign then I believe we need to look for another right back.

But it's been years since Gomes was a regular starter for us. I'm talking about this season, the last couple of months. I would expect, if people claim that something has happened regularly in the last couple of months that they would be able to point to some examples. Like I think we all were when Gomes was having his bad run for us. Seriously, think back to that period. If someone on here had asked to list some of his poor involvements in recent months do you think one or two debatable situations would be brought up or do you think there would be several clear cut examples being presented? I think the latter.

I didn't watch the England game, so I don't know. I agree that not all mistakes lead to goals, and I think mistakes are mistakes either way.

People are talking about him recovering in general, not just from being out of position. He's an attacking full back, he'll be in a position where he needs to recover quite often without being "out of position" in the kind of way he deserves criticism for.

I think in some areas he's a very good defender. Pace and strength goes a long way for a full back and he has those to qualities in spades. When was the last time he was beaten down the outside by a tricky winger or full back? He's actually very good in those one on one situations most of the time and he's grown considerably since his first season and has learned not to always rush into those situations. I thought his last couple of months of last season were in best in a Spurs shirt and I think he's started well this season. Do you disagree with that?

You might not be writing off his entire career, but look at some of the comments on here. "[...]who subsequently showed him up as the second rater he really is" "His awol marking and appetite for shooting himself in the foot are probably too deeply embedded in his dna to change now. Shame, he could've been a very decent RB." I think some of these comments are very harsh at best, and I think the lad deserves to be defended.

 

[scaramanga]

How long do you expect people to remember the mistakes though that was the point. Yeah I could list a few examples of Gomes making **** ups, but I can't remember every single one.

Personally I thought he was poor last Friday in the England game, and he along with Wheelchair were the worst players on the pitch in the Ukraine game. As Gilzean points out, not every mistake by players leads to goals, I noticed Dembele gave the ball away numerous times against West Ham but none of the misplaced passes lead to them scoring.

Fundamentally I don't think he is a good defender, people go on about his recovery from being out of position, surely if you're out of position all of the time then you can't be reading the game well? Also his tendancy to give away needless free kicks in dangerous positions worries me. Can he improve in these areas? Of course he can I'm not writing him off for his entire career, but right now I just can't see why so many people are defending him and seem to be happy with his general play. If he has another season like the last campaign then I believe we need to look for another right back.

I think it goes with the territory that an attacking full back will often be out of position - you can't predict every turnover of possession.

Also, if he's giving away a free kick in a dangerous position it stands to reason that he's not out of position as a defender right?

 

[Jurgen the German]

But it's been years since Gomes was a regular starter for us. I'm talking about this season, the last couple of months. I would expect, if people claim that something has happened regularly in the last couple of months that they would be able to point to some examples. Like I think we all were when Gomes was having his bad run for us. Seriously, think back to that period. If someone on here had asked to list some of his poor involvements in recent months do you think one or two debatable situations would be brought up or do you think there would be several clear cut examples being presented? I think the latter.

I didn't watch the England game, so I don't know. I agree that not all mistakes lead to goals, and I think mistakes are mistakes either way.

People are talking about him recovering in general, not just from being out of position. He's an attacking full back, he'll be in a position where he needs to recover quite often without being "out of position" in the kind of way he deserves criticism for.

I think in some areas he's a very good defender. Pace and strength goes a long way for a full back and he has those to qualities in spades. When was the last time he was beaten down the outside by a tricky winger or full back? He's actually very good in those one on one situations most of the time and he's grown considerably since his first season and has learned not to always rush into those situations. I thought his last couple of months of last season were in best in a Spurs shirt and I think he's started well this season. Do you disagree with that?

You might not be writing off his entire career, but look at some of the comments on here. "[...]who subsequently showed him up as the second rater he really is" "His awol marking and appetite for shooting himself in the foot are probably too deeply embedded in his dna to change now. Shame, he could've been a very decent RB." I think some of these comments are very harsh at best, and I think the lad deserves to be defended.

I couldn't name all the instances when Soldado missed chances for example. I could name a few of course, but there would be some I perhaps remember later on.

I'm not just talking about the when he attacks, positionally I don't think he is good enough. You'll see him sprint back to chase a winger because he was 10 yards further forward than he should have been. One game from last season that springs to mind was Wigan at home, he played them onside on more than one occasion, we were lucky Kone missed a one on one in the first half. Some other examples from last season I can think of with regards to poor defending or stupid fouls given away: Chelsea at home, Sunderland away, Liverpool away. Like I said before, he was below par in the two England games I mentioned (Yarmolenko gave him a torrid time) and the West Ham was a bad day for him.

I don't think he has started off too badly this season, but not great either. He's improved from last season but it was going to take some seriously sub standard play from him to be worse than last season. If he could play like he did in his first full season then I won't have any complaints. Do you not agree that he dipped last season from the previous year?

I do agree he has had some very good performances this season, Norwich at home and Cardiff away were both good examples. I would like to see him consistently hit those standards, unfortunately he doesn't do it enough in my opinion. It's consistency at the end of the day. Everyone makes mistakes, but with him I always fear they will be more frequent than other players in the side.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I think it goes with the territory that an attacking full back will often be out of position - you can't predict every turnover of possession.

Also, if he's giving away a free kick in a dangerous position it stands to reason that he's not out of position as a defender right?

That's not really what I meant as I explained to braineclipse. I often notice he's 5-10 yards out of position when we're defending near the edge of the area for example.

As for the second point, I didn't say he was in the wrong position every single time :lol:

 

[braineclipse]

I couldn't name all the instances when Soldado missed chances for example. I could name a few of course, but there would be some I perhaps remember later on.

I'm not just talking about the when he attacks, positionally I don't think he is good enough. You'll see him sprint back to chase a winger because he was 10 yards further forward than he should have been. One game from last season that springs to mind was Wigan at home, he played them onside on more than one occasion, we were lucky Kone missed a one on one in the first half. Some other examples from last season I can think of with regards to poor defending or stupid fouls given away: Chelsea at home, Sunderland away, Liverpool away. Like I said before, he was below par in the two England games I mentioned (Yarmolenko gave him a torrid time) and the West Ham was a bad day for him.

I don't think he has started off too badly this season, but not great either. He's improved from last season but it was going to take some seriously sub standard play from him to be worse than last season. If he could play like he did in his first full season then I won't have any complaints. Do you not agree that he dipped last season from the previous year?

I do agree he has had some very good performances this season, Norwich at home and Cardiff away were both good examples. I would like to see him consistently hit those standards, unfortunately he doesn't do it enough in my opinion. It's consistency at the end of the day. Everyone makes mistakes, but with him I always fear they will be more frequent than other players in the side.

I'm getting very few responses for my questions about Walker. If I asked the same for Soldado, assuming that someone claimed that he's been missing chances regularly, it seems I would get more examples given...

He was poor for a longish stretch of last season, to me not surprising for a young player that broke into the team the season before that. We've seen it before and we'll see it again. His form dipped, but personally I thought he made a lot of similar mistakes in his first season, but that those mistakes largely went unpunished. I argued as much during that first season. As some of his mistakes were punished in his second season it's no surprise that his confidence was dented and that his performances suffered, again we've seen it all before. A dip in form followed, yes, but not a surprising one or a dip in form that indicated a dip in quality or ability.

For me his last couple of months of last season and his first couple of months this season have been his best by far. Much better than his first season by the way, still wondering if you agree with that or not?

I agree that it's about consistency, but I think people's expectations in that regard are perhaps a bit too high for a young player like Walker. I remember a time when fans of many clubs were saying that Gary Neville wasn't good enough for United, or that Zabaleta wasn't good enough for Emirates Marketing Project, or that Glen Johnson was barely good enough for the Premier League. They all took considerable time to become consistent performers. People seem to compare Walker to some of the best, finished product, full backs around. Not surprisingly he comes up short. As a club I think we depend on developing players into top class players due to our financial constraints, modern full backs have to be fairly complete players, no surprise to me that developing a top class full back takes time.

These days I'm more worried about Dawson than about Walker. And I never hid that I worried about Walker during his first or second season at the club. To me an indication of how far Walker has come already.

 

[braineclipse]

That's not really what I meant as I explained to braineclipse. I often notice he's 5-10 yards out of position when we're defending near the edge of the area for example.

As for the second point, I didn't say he was in the wrong position every single time :lol:

Would you mind quantifying how frequently "often" is in this case? Multiple times per match? Multiple times per half? Multiple times in a 5 game period?

Would you agree that the number of these positional errors has decreased significantly since his first 18 months at the club?

 

[Jurgen the German]

Would you mind quantifying how frequently "often" is in this case? Multiple times per match? Multiple times per half? Multiple times in a 5 game period?

Would you agree that the number of these positional errors has decreased significantly since his first 18 months at the club?

I notice almost every game. Couldn't put an exact number on it. I'm not saying this leads to mistakes in every instance just to be clear. If you take his pace away I don't think he would be playing for England or Spurs for that matter. All IF'S of course, If my auntie had a **** she would be my uncle.

I'm not sure I agree either about the number of postional errors decreasing. I am not saying he cannot improve in this area, but whether he can improve ENOUGH is another matter. I've watched us play all my life, but I'm not a defender, I would have thought something like positional sense is something you have an instinct for, you may argue he will improve with experience, but Defoe is still offside regularly for example despite years of experience.

 

[SUIYHA]

I really don't get some of the Kyle Walker hate. He is a huge asset to this club. He's not the only defender who makes mistakes, yet he seems to get a lot more stick than anyone else whenever he does. Fine - those were massive ****-ups against Chelsea at home last season and Liverpool away, but those kinds of mistakes are few and far between.

Sometimes he gets caught out of position. Name me a full-back that doesn't. I'd much rather have a full-back that gets caught out of position 30 times over a season but is fast enough to get back and recover in time on 28 of them over a full-back that gets caught out of position 5 times over the season and every single one of them leads to an opposition chance.

I remember people saying Ashley Cole was too gung-ho when he was Walker's age. He used to be a striker at youth team level and he'd never be able to shake those attacking instincts and learn to stay back and in position. He didn't turn out to be all that bad did he?

 

[Spur of the moment]

Would you mind quantifying how frequently "often" is in this case? Multiple times per match? Multiple times per half? Multiple times in a 5 game period?

Would you agree that the number of these positional errors has decreased significantly since his first 18 months at the club?

Surely enough people have commented by now for you to at least get the idea it's not just one rogue opinion. Even a number of his defenders concede he is prone to going awol and brainfarts. We are all Spurs fans so we don't just go round making things up off the top of our heads.

[h=1]Match Zone: Walker looked out of his depth in Ukraine but there were positives for England and Roy Hodgson[/h]By MARTIN KEOWN

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...on-Martin-Keown-Match-Zone.html#ixzz2i04DUkh4
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Kyle Walker had a torrid time against Ukraine winger Yevhen Konoplyanka. The 23-year-old Dnipro man is incredibly fast and Walker struggled with that. The Tottenham defender is used to relying on his pace to get him out of trouble but Konoplyanka was faster than him.


On a few occasions, particularly in the first half, Walker was caught too far forward when he should have dropped level with his defensive line.


He has to read the danger earlier, otherwise he’ll give more free-kicks away in dangerous positions like in the second half.

 

[braineclipse]

I notice almost every game. Couldn't put an exact number on it. I'm not saying this leads to mistakes in every instance just to be clear. If you take his pace away I don't think he would be playing for England or Spurs for that matter. All IF'S of course, If my auntie had a **** she would be my uncle.

I'm not sure I agree either about the number of postional errors decreasing. I am not saying he cannot improve in this area, but whether he can improve ENOUGH is another matter. I've watched us play all my life, but I'm not a defender, I would have thought something like positional sense is something you have an instinct for, you may argue he will improve with experience, but Defoe is still offside regularly for example despite years of experience.

Yeah, the pace thing is a very big if. It's probably his best attribute, take the best attribute away from any player and their careers would have suffered for it. What would Lennon be without pace? What would Beckham be without his brilliant right foot? And so on...

How often do you notice positional mistakes from our other defenders? I mean, it's pretty rare to see someone play a perfect match positionally, particularly if we're being put under some pressure. Not trying to say there aren't shades of gray here, just trying to get a better understanding of how you rate his mistakes compared to the mistakes from our other defenders.

Some player improve massively with experience, some don't. Personally I think his decision making has already improved massively, and his positioning too. In his first season I could see rather glaring mistakes just about every game, but I'm seeing a lot fewer/smaller mistakes now. If he can keep improving is another question of course, but I will continue to have a lot of patience with him as I think he has a lot of potential and as long as he's trying and he's improving I will remain positive.