Kevin Wimmer

[alekaras]

@alekaras - I don't think Wimmer will wait around for Jan to go 'past his prime' - that's the issue I have with that CB progression list. I think Poch was being entirely honest with his Wimmer 'outburst' - I also think that means that Wimmer is likely off sooner or later, because the Toby-Jan partnership can't be broken up when fit (at least not for the next 2-3 years), and Wimmer's too good to rot away outside the matchday squad waiting for Jan to get injured/lose fitness.

I have higher hopes that CCV will fit into your planned progression. But I think, given the stigma around having an unduly young CB partnership, that we'll be buying Wimmer-age back-up defenders for that LCB slot for a while until Toby and Jan lose their edge and we can promote CCV + whoever the LCB backup happens to be at that time into the primary role full-time.

That's what I am fearing too, that Wimmer will not wait around until Jan goes past his prime. But given that Toby/Wimmer proved to be an equally effective partnership, I can see Wimms getting more game time eventually. Say some of the easier PL games and cup games. And in order to keep Verts fresh, the number of games could increase. I could see Wimmer getting 15-20 games a year, which will slowly increase year over year. Will he be happy with that? Maybe not. But if we are challenging for trophies, it might be an incentive to stick around.

 

[DubaiSpur]

That's what I am fearing too, that Wimmer will not wait around until Jan goes past his prime. But given that Toby/Wimmer proved to be an equally effective partnership, I can see Wimms getting more game time eventually. Say some of the easier PL games and cup games. And in order to keep Verts fresh, the number of games could increase. I could see Wimmer getting 15-20 games a year, which will slowly increase year over year. Will he be happy with that? Maybe not. But if we are challenging for trophies, it might be an incentive to stick around.

Well, I'd imagine he wouldn't be very happy if he feels (as he rightly should, perhaps) that he's as good as Verts. And if another club comes in offering him playing time, a salary increase (I can't imagine he gets paid at a grotesquely higher rate than what we generally afford to second-line players) and a shot at a regular starting place, I can see him wanting to leave, tbh. After all, for Austria he's up against Dragovic, Hinteregger and Prodl, all of whom have played more than him this season, and two of whom (Hinteregger and Prodl) have started nearly every game for their respective clubs.

That's the downside with having a partnership with the chemistry of Toby-Verts - unless we have another pair to switch out with them at will, we're sort of stuck playing them as inevitable first choices whenever they're fit, since they have something then next two CBs in line don't necessarily have.

 

[braineclipse]

Did you not read the Poch quotes on this page about Wimmer left foot and CCV right foot and balance

I don't think short term squad selection and long term player development are quite the same thing.

Ledley King was right footed and a wonderful left sided centre back. Preferring CCV to Wimmer on the bench for right footed options might mean that Poch doesn't see Wimmer or Vertonghen as effective as the right sided centre back. It says very little about CCV's ability as a left sided centre back at this time and frankly nothing about his long term development and where he might end up playing.

He's a right-sided CB. As is Dier. The only cover on the left is Wimmer. Davies can cover too, but I do not see him as the long-term option when Jan is not up to par any longer.

Here's how I am seeing the CB progression:

• CCV is Toby's back-up and slots in when Toby is past his prime, at which point CCV will be 23-24.
• Wimmer is Jan's back-up and slots in when Jan is past his prime, at which point he'll be 25-26.
• Dier is not a long-term CB option, but rather will slot in for Wanyama when Dembele is past his prime with Wanyama playing more of a Dembele role. Or he could play the Dembele role, which I agree he is not a like-for-like.

Davies continues to be a rotation option at LB and, given how much we rotate our FBs, will get plenty of game time to keep him happy. He will be named to the bench to cover two positions (LB and LCB) on occasion, but I see that as the exception rather than the norm.

Thoughts?

Right now Dier seems to be Toby's backup. Long term for Dier I think he could quite easily end up as a centre back, it's just too early to tell.

The plan seems like a fine one, and I think it's the kind of thing the club should be thinking about. But those plans that stretch 5 years into the future are unlikely to pan out exactly as planned. There are just too many uncertainties.

What is important is a plan to give young talented players game time. For CCV we seem to have that.

 

[AdamB]

I seriously cannot see Wimmer not being in Poch's plans. Jan is 29 and in a couple of years time will be past his peak. Wimmer is the obvious and proven choice to take over.

Read the comments from Poch which I posted above

 

[Olle73]

I need another right, not another left.

Thats a quote that could have been posted hundred of times on the clubs offical Facebook page before the Bayern game.

 

[Spurs7891]

I will prefer Wimmer in defence than Dier. Still not convinced of Dier in defence as he makes too many mistakes. But can understand why Wimmer is frustrated as Vertonghen and Alderweireld is our first choice defenders now. Wish we can keep Wimmer.

 

[Olle73]

I will prefer Wimmer in defence than Dier.

In Poch book these two are not exchangeable, apperently.

 

[Yoof]

He's a right-sided CB. As is Dier. The only cover on the left is Wimmer.

Maybe Poch strictly wants left footers on the left of the pair but CCV has actually played LCB just as often as RCB, in fact a lot of his best performances have been as the left CB but he's comfortable playing either side.

 

[90291Spur]

Maybe Poch strictly wants left footers on the left of the pair but CCV has actually played LCB just as often as RCB, in fact a lot of his best performances have been as the left CB but he's comfortable playing either side.

Is CCV as right dominant as Verts and Wimmer are left dominant?

 

[Yoof]

Is CCV as right dominant as Verts and Wimmer are left dominant?

Probably not quite as dependant on his natural foot than those two but he'll still always look to use his right. Right footers roughly outnumber lefties 4:1 so right-footed CBs will most likely have had experience of playing the LCB role at some point during their career so them switching over isn't as much of a problem, some of the best CBs of recent years are/were right-footers playing on the left of the pair - King, Terry, Vidic, Ramos, Puyol etc. Like I said though Poch may specifically want his CBs playing on their natural side but in CCV's case he's so far shown that he's comfortable playing either role.

 

[90291Spur]

Probably not quite as dependant on his natural foot than those two but he'll still always look to use his right. Right footers roughly outnumber lefties 4:1 so right-footed CBs will most likely have had experience of playing the LCB role at some point during their career so them switching over isn't as much of a problem, some of the best CBs of recent years are/were right-footers playing on the left of the pair - King, Terry, Vidic, Ramos, Puyol etc. Like I said though Poch may specifically want his CBs playing on their natural side but in CCV's case he's so far shown that he's comfortable playing either role.

Thanks for the always comprehensive answer. As Verts and Wimmer are so left dominant I can see why Poch keeps them on that side of the CB pairing. Whether Wimmer has the patience to wait for his turn will be shown to us as the winds of time blow through the valley of our years...

 

[Yoof]

Thanks for the always comprehensive answer. As Verts and Wimmer are so left dominant I can see why Poch keeps them on that side of the CB pairing. Whether Wimmer has the patience to wait for his turn will be shown to us as the winds of time blow through the valley of our years...

Yeah I'd be reluctant to try them as a pair as I doubt either will have had much experience, if any, of playing as the right side of the pair. I can't even think of a top level left-footed CB having played any significant amount of time at RCB whereas most of our rivals have a right-footer as their LCB - Chelsea(Terry), Arsenal(Koscielny), Emirates Marketing Project(Stones), Liverpool(Lovren), Everton(Williams), Leicester(Huth). It's a shame for Wimmer though as I like him a lot, hopefully he remains patient but I can understand him being frustrated given how well he did when he came into the side last season.

 

[90291Spur]

Yeah I'd be reluctant to try them as a pair as I doubt either will have had much experience, if any, of playing as the right side of the pair. I can't even think of a top level left-footed CB having played any significant amount of time at RCB whereas most of our rivals have a right-footer as their LCB - Chelsea(Terry), Arsenal(Koscielny), Emirates Marketing Project(Stones), Liverpool(Lovren), Everton(Williams), Leicester(Huth). It's a shame for Wimmer though as I like him a lot, hopefully he remains patient but I can understand him being frustrated given how well he did when he came into the side last season.

Wimmer was excellent and his frustration is totally understandable. Chadli is an example that international players especially will look to move on as it appears he lost his Belgian Euro 2016 spot because he couldn't get enough game time. But this is a great problem for us to have and it appears that CCV could possibly play on either side of the CB pairing if Wimmer slings his hook.

 

[dawaxman]

Yeah I'd be reluctant to try them as a pair as I doubt either will have had much experience, if any, of playing as the right side of the pair. I can't even think of a top level left-footed CB having played any significant amount of time at RCB whereas most of our rivals have a right-footer as their LCB - Chelsea(Terry), Arsenal(Koscielny), Emirates Marketing Project(Stones), Liverpool(Lovren), Everton(Williams), Leicester(Huth). It's a shame for Wimmer though as I like him a lot, hopefully he remains patient but I can understand him being frustrated given how well he did when he came into the side last season.

Weren't Adams and Bould both left-footers?

 

[Bullet]

Probably not quite as dependant on his natural foot than those two but he'll still always look to use his right. Right footers roughly outnumber lefties 4:1 so right-footed CBs will most likely have had experience of playing the LCB role at some point during their career so them switching over isn't as much of a problem, some of the best CBs of recent years are/were right-footers playing on the left of the pair - King, Terry, Vidic, Ramos, Puyol etc. Like I said though Poch may specifically want his CBs playing on their natural side but in CCV's case he's so far shown that he's comfortable playing either role.

Not aimed at you in particular Yooooof.

But Poch likes the centre backs to split to the edge of the box and receive it from Lloris and play from there, so it is beneficial to play a leftie on the left etc.
Ditto when defending sometimes, they split and Dier sits between them to make a 3.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Anyone remember where Poch played (what side) and what foot he used mainly?

 

[billyiddo]

Not aimed at you in particular Yooooof.

But Poch likes the centre backs to split to the edge of the box and receive it from Lloris and play from there, so it is beneficial to play a leftie on the left etc.
Ditto when defending sometimes, they split and Dier sits between them to make a 3.

I don't think it's a hard and fast rule of right footed player = right center back/left foot = left CB it's more whether the player is comfortable playing on that side. But that's a good point you make regarding how we need our CBs to play

Hopefully whatever the reason it doesn't mean Wimmer is on the way out as I rate him highly after last season

 

[Rorschach]

I don't think it's a hard and fast rule of right footed player = right center back/left foot = left CB it's more whether the player is comfortable playing on that side. But that's a good point you make regarding how we need our CBs to play

Hopefully whatever the reason it doesn't mean Wimmer is on the way out as I rate him highly after last season

Bang on. It's more what the player is used to playing rather than the footedness (Is that a word? Yes it is. Thanks mate). If a player is used to playing on the wrong side then it should be fine.

 

[jts1882]

Left footed players tend to be more comfortable playing with their right foot (same as left handers are much more capable with their right hand than right-handers with their left), so I'm a little surprised Wimmer isn't playing with either him or Vertonghen on the right. I think the main reason we see more right footers playing on the left is that their are less left footers and its rare to have two left footed centre backs.

The point about Poch's system is a good one, except splitting to allow Dier to slot in doesn't work so well when Dier is the replacement CB. It seems that particular the change disrupts the system more, not less.

So it probably is more about experience playing the position.

 

[Whiffler]

Left footed players tend to be more comfortable playing with their right foot (same as left handers are much more capable with their right hand than right-handers with their left), so I'm a little surprised Wimmer isn't playing with either him or Vertonghen on the right. I think the main reason we see more right footers playing on the left is that their are less left footers and its rare to have two left footed centre backs.

The point about Poch's system is a good one, except splitting to allow Dier to slot in doesn't work so well when Dier is the replacement CB. It seems that particular the change disrupts the system more, not less.

So it probably is more about experience playing the position.

I beg to differ. I haven't studied for sweeping generalisations 101, so am at something of a disadvantage.