I liked Erik Lamela before it was cool

[Daisuk]

And yet he still looks like some teenage goth.

Haha.

 

[Cochise]

I'm with whoever it was that said he should be given the CAM position for a couple of games. I know they all interchange positions in the AM 3, but I honestly think that's his best spot.

 

[spurs' magna carter]

I'm with whoever it was that said he should be given the CAM position for a couple of games. I know they all interchange positions in the AM 3, but I honestly think that's his best spot.

I was one them. The boy has talent there's no doubting it, technically he's pretty much head and shoulders above the rest bar Eriksen of course. He has a sensational dribbling ability coupled with a dangerous left boot, both in shooting and passing, yet when on the wing he struggles, usually going into a wall of bodies and sometimes which exposes his crippling lack of confidence.

Seeing Soldado fail at this club has been heart breaking for me, at Valencia he was World Class and a joy to watch, despite his age at the time it was quite a coup when we signed him but with Lamela's failings it's more worrying because he is still only 23, there is a danger that his career is over or at least starts to fade before it really begins, which given his talent and potential is just as sad, if not worse, than the Soldado story.

Despite how frustrating and worrying his performances have been, especially when you consider he is our record signing, I still feel deep down inside that if we see the best of this boy, especially in a No. 10 role, we will never ever look back, there is something about him despite his failings that suggest to me we have something vey special on our hands it's just we're yet to see it and I feel that giving him a run of games in the No. 10 role, epsecially when you see his failings on the wing, may finally reveal and maximise those hidden talents.

 

[SoundAndVision]

I'd say he wants a few more months in the gym as well. He's what, 2 years older than Bale was when he had his breakout season? And yet he still looks like some teenage goth.

His frame is smaller than Bales, going to the gym wont make your bones bigger.It wont make him a better player either.

 

[mudshark]

Yeah, 'cause that's what he needs, bigger bones, and improving upper-body strength never made anyone a better player. He's exactly the same height as Bale.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

His frame is smaller than Bales, going to the gym wont make your bones bigger.It wont make him a better player either.

If he improves his strength it will make him a better athelete. Strength is the basis of advanced athletic performance.

Becoming a better athelete never done Christiano Ronaldo any harm. I'd like to see Lamella back next year 5-10kg heavier, I doubt that will happen though.

 

[braineclipse]

I'd say he wants a few more months in the gym as well. He's what, 2 years older than Bale was when he had his breakout season? And yet he still looks like some teenage goth.

Bale was and is a physical phenomenon aside 99% of footballers.

If he improves his strength it will make him a better athelete. Strength is the basis of advanced athletic performance.

Becoming a better athelete never done Christiano Ronaldo any harm. I'd like to see Lamella back next year 5-10kg heavier, I doubt that will happen though.

Ronaldo is also something truly special physically, apart from almost every other footballer in the world.

A lot of top, and world class, footballers have had a completely different physique and done just fine. Adding bulk is not a sure fire way to improve, far from it.

There was an article a while back about how Tom Carroll had added strength and felt it made him significantly worse because he lost quickness and agility (iirc).

Would Iniesta and Xavi have been better footballers with more bulk? Would Silva and Mata? I'm not so sure.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Bale was and is a physical phenomenon aside 99% of footballers.



Ronaldo is also something truly special physically, apart from almost every other footballer in the world.

A lot of top, and world class, footballers have had a completely different physique and done just fine. Adding bulk is not a sure fire way to improve, far from it.

There was an article a while back about how Tom Carroll had added strength and felt it made him significantly worse because he lost quickness and agility (iirc).

Would Iniesta and Xavi have been better footballers with more bulk? Would Silva and Mata? I'm not so sure.

All players bar none will benifit from an increase in strength (note: this is different than bulk, will explain further in a bit).

However strength gains past the very first CNS adaptations come with increased weight and bulk. I agree with you that past a certain point this will become limiting in terms of speed, agility etc.

Training a footballer needs to be treated almost as a weight class sport. It's all about increasing strength to weight ratio. It's what Ronaldo has done, it's what Bale has done. With that comes some increase in weight, but as long as this is managed then the benifits are worth it.

I think Lamela can afford to go to about 80kg to get the best trade off between power, strength and speed.

Ronaldo's physique is special, but with the same amount of dedication and the correct training program, it should be possible for the majority of prem footballers at the same height and starting weight that Ronaldo was to get close. 6ft, 80kg with sub 10% body fat is acheivable for pretty much everyone currently posting on this forum who is 6 feet tall. What's impressive about Ronaldo is that he's managed that whilst continuing to compete at such a high level.

Dedication, consistency and the correct training program is what is needed. I've no doubt that it would improve Lamela as a player if he came back next year weighing 75-80kg at the same body fat % that he is currently.

 

[braineclipse]

All players bar none will benifit from an increase in strength (note: this is different than bulk, will explain further in a bit).

However strength gains past the very first CNS adaptations come with increased weight and bulk. I agree with you that past a certain point this will become limiting in terms of speed, agility etc.

Training a footballer needs to be treated almost as a weight class sport. It's all about increasing strength to weight ratio. It's what Ronaldo has done, it's what Bale has done. With that comes some increase in weight, but as long as this is managed then the benifits are worth it.

I think Lamela can afford to go to about 80kg to get the best trade off between power, strength and speed.

Ronaldo's physique is special, but with the same amount of dedication and the correct training program, it should be possible for the majority of prem footballers at the same height and starting weight that Ronaldo was to get close. 6ft, 80kg with sub 10% body fat is acheivable for pretty much everyone currently posting on this forum who is 6 feet tall. What's impressive about Ronaldo is that he's managed that whilst continuing to compete at such a high level.

Dedication, consistency and the correct training program is what is needed. I've no doubt that it would improve Lamela as a player if he came back next year weighing 75-80kg at the same body fat % that he is currently.

Seems extremely simplified to talk about it in regards to body fat %.

Strength, in muscles, often comes at a cost to other physical aspects such as pace, stamina, quickness, agility I think. Even if that increase in strength isn't coupled with an increase in body fat %.

This is what makes players like Ronaldo and Bale so rare physically. The way they combine strength, pace, balance, agility etc. Football is much more complex than most sports, but we see the same in a lot of other (imo less complex) sports with a purer physical ability focus too. Combining all those aspects is very rare, leading to specialized athletes within sports like cycling, cross-country skiing etc. For most footballers physical strength has to be balanced with those other physical needs that also makes a player better.

Barcelona had one of the top physical fitness regimes in the world under Pep (again, imo). I don't think any of them went away for a pre-season looking to add 5-10 kilograms of muscle weight.

 

[mudshark]

In my opinion, the way Lamela tries to play, running into crowds of defenders and expecting to come away with the ball, he would undoubtedly benefit from an increase in upper-body strength. I'd contend that he either has to stop playing that way, or better equip himself to deal with the inevitable consequences of what he tries to do. It's Bambi on ice sometimes.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

Seems extremely simplified to talk about it in regards to body fat %.

Strength, in muscles, often comes at a cost to other physical aspects such as pace, stamina, quickness, agility I think. Even if that increase in strength isn't coupled with an increase in body fat %.

This is what makes players like Ronaldo and Bale so rare physically. The way they combine strength, pace, balance, agility etc. Football is much more complex than most sports, but we see the same in a lot of other (imo less complex) sports with a purer physical ability focus too. Combining all those aspects is very rare, leading to specialized athletes within sports like cycling, cross-country skiing etc. For most footballers physical strength has to be balanced with those other physical needs that also makes a player better.

Barcelona had one of the top physical fitness regimes in the world under Pep (again, imo). I don't think any of them went away for a pre-season looking to add 5-10 kilograms of muscle weight.

First bold part: Where have you come to that conclusion? It doesn't at all. In fact increased strength improves all of those things you mention. You are confusing strength with body weight and thinking increased body weight = bad. They are not the same thing and increased body weight is not bad as long as it is controllled whilst strength is increased.

2nd bold part: I absolutely agree with you, which is why for some players an increase in strength and sometimes body weight is benificial. I feel that Lamela falls into this category, I'd closely measure his performance whilst doing it to ensure that as he gains weight there is no drop off (in fact I'd be looking for improvement) in any of the things you mentioned in your post.

3rd bold: You're thinking that strength = bulk and bulk = bad again. Almost every player will go into pre-season looking to increase their strength. Not all will need to gain 5-10kg in weight to get the best benifit of their own strength to weight ratio though. So no, of course every player doesn't go into pre-season looking to gain 5-10kg of weight, that would be silly.

In the case of Lamela, I think gaining 5-10kg of lean body weight would make him a much better player. I wouldn't say the same about someone like Kane for example. His program would be tailored differently.

 

[braineclipse]

First bold part: Where have you come to that conclusion? It doesn't at all. In fact increased strength improves all of those things you mention. You are confusing strength with body weight and thinking increased body weight = bad. They are not the same thing and increased body weight is not bad as long as it is controllled whilst strength is increased.

2nd bold part: I absolutely agree with you, which is why for some players an increase in strength and sometimes body weight is benificial. I feel that Lamela falls into this category, I'd closely measure his performance whilst doing it to ensure that as he gains weight there is no drop off (in fact I'd be looking for improvement) in any of the things you mentioned in your post.

3rd bold: You're thinking that strength = bulk and bulk = bad again. Almost every player will go into pre-season looking to increase their strength. Not all will need to gain 5-10kg in weight to get the best benifit of their own strength to weight ratio though. So no, of course every player doesn't go into pre-season looking to gain 5-10kg of weight, that would be silly.

In the case of Lamela, I think gaining 5-10kg of lean body weight would make him a much better player. I wouldn't say the same about someone like Kane for example. His program would be tailored differently.

1 & 2: If it "doesn't at all", why the need to monitor for drop offs in other things?

3: No. You're the one arguing that he should add 5-10kg of muscle weight. I also didn't say "every", just to be clear.

It could be that Lamela would benefit from adding that much muscle mass, what I'm arguing is that it's a difficult thing to estimate from the outside. Since you bring up Kane he himself said how Pochettino's fitness regime had improved him, and we've all seen that improvement I think. I see no reason to think that as a club we're not doing a good job in this area. I would trust the club to make good decisions on Lamela's fitness too, and I would assume they did so last summer too although more time has now been had to evaluate so decisions might be a bit different.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

1 & 2: If it "doesn't at all", why the need to monitor for drop offs in other things?

3: No. You're the one arguing that he should add 5-10kg of muscle weight. I also didn't say "every", just to be clear.

It could be that Lamela would benefit from adding that much muscle mass, what I'm arguing is that it's a difficult thing to estimate from the outside. Since you bring up Kane he himself said how Pochettino's fitness regime had improved him, and we've all seen that improvement I think. I see no reason to think that as a club we're not doing a good job in this area. I would trust the club to make good decisions on Lamela's fitness too, and I would assume they did so last summer too although more time has now been had to evaluate so decisions might be a bit different.

1&2: Tiredness, underecovery, stress/external environmental factors are all things that could result in a drop off, so you need to monitor for drop off to give you early warning signs and stop you from injuring a 30million asset when your job is to improve them.

3: He should. As I've repeatedly said, I think it would improve him as a player (is that not what we are talking about?)

I too think the club are doing a good job in terms of fitness but my point is this;

Any player who increases their strength and bodyweight in order to improve their strength to weight ratio will be faster, stronger,and fitter. This will make it easier for them to improve their performance on a football pitch.

If you disagree with the above statement, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[braineclipse]

1&2: Tiredness, underecovery, stress/external environmental factors are all things that could result in a drop off, so you need to monitor for drop off to give you early warning signs and stop you from injuring a 30million asset when your job is to improve them.

3: He should. As I've repeatedly said, I think it would improve him as a player (is that not what we are talking about?)

I too think the club are doing a good job in terms of fitness but my point is this;

Any player who increases their strength and bodyweight in order to improve their strength to weight ratio will be faster, stronger,and fitter. This will make it easier for them to improve their performance on a football pitch.

If you disagree with the above statement, then we'll just have to agree to disagree.

"Fitter" is a nebulous term in this case. I don't disagree with that statement, but that's quite different to adding 5-10 kilos over a summer.

Fitness, including strength, is obviously important. I'm not saying it's not. Improving one physical attribute, with everything else staying the same, will obviously be beneficial. Where I'm in disagreement is about the feasibility of adding strength in terms of 5-10 kilos of muscle mass over a summer without significant decreases to other aspects of "fitness". And it seems to me that a lot of players at a fantastic level are no stronger than Lamela and are seemingly not prioritizing the kind of changes you're proposing for him.

Like I said above Tom Carroll said in an interview how adding strength (muscle mass) made him worse in other aspects to the point of making him a worse player as a result of it.

 

[markysimmo]

In Four-Four-Two magazine it said that Ronaldo's leap is 96cm's higher than the average NBA players

 

[Jurgen the German]

I was one them. The boy has talent there's no doubting it, technically he's pretty much head and shoulders above the rest bar Eriksen of course. He has a sensational dribbling ability coupled with a dangerous left boot, both in shooting and passing, yet when on the wing he struggles, usually going into a wall of bodies and sometimes which exposes his crippling lack of confidence.

Seeing Soldado fail at this club has been heart breaking for me, at Valencia he was World Class and a joy to watch, despite his age at the time it was quite a coup when we signed him but with Lamela's failings it's more worrying because he is still only 23, there is a danger that his career is over or at least starts to fade before it really begins, which given his talent and potential is just as sad, if not worse, than the Soldado story.

Despite how frustrating and worrying his performances have been, especially when you consider he is our record signing, I still feel deep down inside that if we see the best of this boy, especially in a No. 10 role, we will never ever look back, there is something about him despite his failings that suggest to me we have something vey special on our hands it's just we're yet to see it and I feel that giving him a run of games in the No. 10 role, epsecially when you see his failings on the wing, may finally reveal and maximise those hidden talents.

If he was a sensational dribbler and shooter then he would have more than 2 league goals to show for his performances.

 

[Millsy_Yiddo]

"Fitter" is a nebulous term in this case. I don't disagree with that statement, but that's quite different to adding 5-10 kilos over a summer.

Fitness, including strength, is obviously important. I'm not saying it's not. Improving one physical attribute, with everything else staying the same, will obviously be beneficial. Where I'm in disagreement is about the feasibility of adding strength in terms of 5-10 kilos of muscle mass over a summer without significant decreases to other aspects of "fitness". And it seems to me that a lot of players at a fantastic level are no stronger than Lamela and are seemingly not prioritizing the kind of changes you're proposing for him.

Like I said above Tom Carroll said in an interview how adding strength (muscle mass) made him worse in other aspects to the point of making him a worse player as a result of it.

In fairness 10kg is a bit too ambitious in one summer simply because of the time available. 5kg should be doable, it equates to about 2lb a week for 6 weeks. So let's say he aims for 5kg for the sake of this argument.

As I say, providing his body fat levels remained the same and his strength improved at the rate you would expect it's impossible for any of the other attributes not to get better never mind worse.

Can you explain to me how you think that if he gains 5kg of lean muscle mass through an intelligently written strength program he will get slower? Or less agile?

Regarding Tom Carroll, you're confusing strength with muscle mass again. He's much smaller than Lamela and can't afford to go as far with his weight gain before his strength to weight ratio is negitively effected. I suspect this is what happened, although without any other info other than you telling me he said it, it's impossible to draw a conclusion really.

 

[Finney Is Back]

I was one them. The boy has talent there's no doubting it, technically he's pretty much head and shoulders above the rest bar Eriksen of course. He has a sensational dribbling ability coupled with a dangerous left boot, both in shooting and passing, yet when on the wing he struggles, usually going into a wall of bodies and sometimes which exposes his crippling lack of confidence.

Seeing Soldado fail at this club has been heart breaking for me, at Valencia he was World Class and a joy to watch, despite his age at the time it was quite a coup when we signed him but with Lamela's failings it's more worrying because he is still only 23, there is a danger that his career is over or at least starts to fade before it really begins, which given his talent and potential is just as sad, if not worse, than the Soldado story.

Despite how frustrating and worrying his performances have been, especially when you consider he is our record signing, I still feel deep down inside that if we see the best of this boy, especially in a No. 10 role, we will never ever look back, there is something about him despite his failings that suggest to me we have something vey special on our hands it's just we're yet to see it and I feel that giving him a run of games in the No. 10 role, epsecially when you see his failings on the wing, may finally reveal and maximise those hidden talents.

I always find it hard to see where this idea that Lamela is technically good comes from?.... The player I see for Spurs every week cannot control the ball in the run (he always seems to have to stop with it first). He cannot start any dribble without rolling his foot over the ball twice (which often results in him losing the ball and if not then best case scenario is that the opposition get themselves a bit better set). He is also embarrassingly one-footed and often fails to complete even the most simple of passes. I'm of the opinion that even Townsend is well ahead of Lamela technically.

 

[Raziel]

I always find it hard to see where this idea that Lamela is technically good comes from?.... The player I see for Spurs every week cannot control the ball in the run (he always seems to have to stop with it first). He cannot start any dribble without rolling his foot over the ball twice (which often results in him losing the ball and if not then best case scenario is that the opposition get themselves a bit better set). He is also embarrassingly one-footed and often fails to complete even the most simple of passes. I'm of the opinion that even Townsend is well ahead of Lamela technically.

On that thought .. I think I will just go kill myself ..

 

[SoundAndVision]

If he improves his strength it will make him a better athelete. Strength is the basis of advanced athletic performance.

Becoming a better athelete never done Christiano Ronaldo any harm. I'd like to see Lamella back next year 5-10kg heavier, I doubt that will happen though.

10kg? No way. It would be mostly fat and wouldnt benefit him in any way.
The most amount of pure muscle its possible to put on in 1 year with proper consistant training and diet and not using steroids, is 3kg.