Harry Winks

[braineclipse]

The argument of Winks vs. Ndombele aside, he absolutely didn't have an ok game

- The midfield in general didn't have a good game (tough against City always), but the passmap shows Winks failure, he pretty much never got the ball to any of the attacking players, and barely made himself available to releave the pressure on CBs

His main responsibility on that role is defensive imo. Making sure we're not open through the centre, he did alright at that. Their main threat was from the wide areas.

Perhaps my expectations are too low at this point. It would take one hell of a player in that role, in our team, against this City team to really be a difference maker on the ball. Our ability to play through pressure from the back is severely limited, City are one of the best drilled pressing teams around.

He did as well as can be expected of him imo. If that's just not good enough he's far from alone in that lineup.

 

[Raziel]

His main responsibility on that role is defensive imo. Making sure we're not open through the centre, he did alright at that. Their main threat was from the wide areas.

Perhaps my expectations are too low at this point. It would take one hell of a player in that role, in our team, against this City team to really be a difference maker on the ball. Our ability to play through pressure from the back is severely limited, City are one of the best drilled pressing teams around.

He did as well as can be expected of him imo. If that's just not good enough he's far from alone in that lineup.

So to your & @StephenH points

- Our obvious tactic (you called it out) was we compressed the middle and made City go wide (as a tactic it worked)

In that compressed model, you want central midfielders who are good/relish being surrounded by the opposition (hence Sissoko being the worst option, but not Winks strength either), Ndombele and Lamela are probably the best two we have at that, with Lucas worth a mention, yet we took off one of those and never played the other 2.

That lack of comfort at being under City's press in tight spaces showed in why the CB's had no options and the pass map is a brick show.

You needed players who would make City think, and we didn't play them.

 

[glorygloryeze]

So to your & @StephenH points

- Our obvious tactic (you called it out) was we compressed the middle and made City go wide (as a tactic it worked)

In that compressed model, you want central midfielders who are good/relish being surrounded by the opposition (hence Sissoko being the worst option, but not Winks strength either), Ndombele and Lamela are probably the best two we have at that, with Lucas worth a mention, yet we took off one of those and never played the other 2.

That lack of comfort at being under City's press in tight spaces showed in why the CB's had no options and the pass map is a brick show.

You needed players who would make City think, and we didn't play them.

Sadly, i think playing Winks and NOT playing Ndombele at any time has to have been political...it made zero footballing sense even if you think Ndombele hasn't been great recenetly, you know what he can do (and what Winks cannot)

 

[StephenH]

You needed players who would make City think

Sadly they are very expensive.

"Ndombele and Lamela" yeah that's gone well.

 

[StephenH]

Sadly, i think playing Winks and NOT playing Ndombele at any time has to have been political...it made zero footballing sense even if you think Ndombele hasn't been great recently, you know what he can do (and what Winks cannot)

Ndombele is obviously skilful but ineffective, he is more a five a side trickster.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Ndombele is obviously skilful but ineffective, he is more a five a side trickster.

Just like Winks (just a lot better use in a game when we'd be pressed hard)

 

[StephenH]

Just like Winks (just a lot better use in a game when we'd be pressed hard)

Lets be fair we were on a hiding to nil. The City are very good and we are not in a good place ATM

 

[glorygloryeze]

Lets be fair we were on a hiding to nil. The City are very good and we are not in a good place ATM

True...but you wouldn't have started Bergwijn instead of Son because we're "not in a good place" would you?

 

[StephenH]

True...but you wouldn't have started Bergwijn instead of Son because we're "not in a good place" would you?

No.

PS. I probably would have picked the same team.

 

[billyiddo]

Ndombele has been putting in some desperate performances lately both in terms of quality and effort - understandable imo that he was dropped for Winks

 

[braineclipse]

So to your & @StephenH points

- Our obvious tactic (you called it out) was we compressed the middle and made City go wide (as a tactic it worked)

In that compressed model, you want central midfielders who are good/relish being surrounded by the opposition (hence Sissoko being the worst option, but not Winks strength either), Ndombele and Lamela are probably the best two we have at that, with Lucas worth a mention, yet we took off one of those and never played the other 2.

That lack of comfort at being under City's press in tight spaces showed in why the CB's had no options and the pass map is a brick show.

You needed players who would make City think, and we didn't play them.

Lamela surely wasn't an option for any of the three midfield roles?

I get what Ndombele would give us, I thought he was the obvious sub to bring on, but can understand Mason going for Bale and then choosing to add Sissoko for protection. Though that's not what I would have done.

For all his strengths on the ball I think playing Ndombele as the central of those three would have been a mistake. Certainly from the start. Same as one of the wider central midfielders.

We played a fairly low risk style from the back. We all saw what happened when Dier tried one of his trademark carry the ball forward then misplace a difficult pass move. Or when Son misplaced the pass back to whoever. I don't think a higher risk style would have worked, we're not good enough and certainly not well drilled at that. City are too good to let us succeed playing like that.

Winks did what he could. Up against one of the best teams around, in a dysfunctional team. He didn't make us functional, but I don't put that on him.

Ndombele could have been a difference maker. Like Lo Celso, those individual moments. But to accommodate him we would have had to play a different style, different tactic. That would have caused other issues imo.

For that role, for this game, we didn't have anyone better than Winks. I maintain that he did as well as can be expected. There are certainly others that deserve more blame imo.

That might not be good enough going forward, but I would also expect him to do better in a better functioning team.

 

[Finney Is Back]

So to your & @StephenH points

- Our obvious tactic (you called it out) was we compressed the middle and made City go wide (as a tactic it worked)

In that compressed model, you want central midfielders who are good/relish being surrounded by the opposition (hence Sissoko being the worst option, but not Winks strength either), Ndombele and Lamela are probably the best two we have at that, with Lucas worth a mention, yet we took off one of those and never played the other 2.

That lack of comfort at being under City's press in tight spaces showed in why the CB's had no options and the pass map is a brick show.

You needed players who would make City think, and we didn't play them.

Ndombele and Lamela are terrible defensively.... Wrong side of their player on more occasions than right side of them.

Our tactics were to force Emirates Marketing Project wide and then cut off their creative passes back inside to players in dangerous central positions, this meant that Toby and Dier rarely had Emirates Marketing Project running at them (maybe one other time other than when Son gave it away quite early on and Aurier saved him with a tackle on Sterling in the box).

Ndombele and/or Lamela in there instead of either Hojbjerg or Winks (or even Sissoko) would've seen us far less organised defensively and City's ball players running directly at Toby and Dier. I absolutely see the logic in Mason's initial selection. I think all that we actually needed was far better output from Son who we got the ball to on 4 or 5 occasions in a good position with him being one on one with Walker only to choose passing it backwards instead of running at City (as Lucas was doing and causing some issues for City from a deeper starting point.

 

[Raziel]

Ndombele and Lamela are terrible defensively.... Wrong side of their player on more occasions than right side of them.

Our tactics were to force Emirates Marketing Project wide and then cut off their creative passes back inside to players in dangerous central positions, this meant that Toby and Dier rarely had Emirates Marketing Project running at them (maybe one other time other than when Son gave it away quite early on and Aurier saved him with a tackle on Sterling in the box).

Ndombele and/or Lamela in there instead of either Hojbjerg or Winks (or even Sissoko) would've seen us far less organised defensively and City's ball players running directly at Toby and Dier. I absolutely see the logic in Mason's initial selection. I think all that we actually needed was far better output from Son who we got the ball to on 4 or 5 occasions in a good position with him being one on one with Walker only to choose passing it backwards instead of running at City (as Lucas was doing and causing some issues for City from a deeper starting point.

So we died with a wimper ...

 

[Finney Is Back]

So we died with a wimper ...

We ended up dying with a whimper yes, but I think that Lamela/Ndombele instead of Winks yesterday would've likely resulted in us dying early on via committing suicide.

I would've liked to have seen Ndombele come on for Lo Celso and us go to a 4-2-3-1 around the time that Mason made the double change, the game was a bit more stretched then and I think Ndombele's creative passing could've helped at that point

Despite our poor performance on Sunday we still had 4 excellent counter attacking moments where we had equal numbers to or even outnumbered City as we were breaking. On three of those occasions City made a tactical foul (with the ref stuffing us by only issuing 1 booking for those 3 occasions) and on the other occasion Hojberg made a mess of a good situation.

 

[lurker of old]

For that role, for this game, we didn't have anyone better than Winks. I maintain that he did as well as can be expected....and Ndombele instead of Winks yesterday would've likely resulted in us dying early on via committing suicide.
But we were incredibly lucky not to be 3 down by half-time. Fact is that we didn't take the game to City, and most of our passing seemed to be backwards....as if we would get a bonus point every time Hugo touched the ball.

 

[Spur of the moment]

Fact is that we didn't take the game to City, and most of our passing seemed to be backwards....as if we would get a bonus point every time Hugo touched the ball.

We didn't take the game to City because they wouldn't let us. They suffocated us with their high pressing and passing from the off. It's what they do. The dynamic Lucas was hacked down pretty much every time he got beyond the halfway line. And with Son in such wretched form right now we are a long way away from overcoming it.

 

[djp82]

We didn't take the game to City because they wouldn't let us. They suffocated us with their high pressing and passing from the off. It's what they do. The dynamic Lucas was hacked down pretty much every time he got beyond the halfway line. And with Son in such wretched form right now we are a long way away from overcoming it.

Yes they did to an extent but Winks is not brave on the ball. He does not pass the ball through the lines. He used to do it early on but he’s not these days.
Our two deepest midfielders done a lot of hiding behind players on Sunday and showed little bravery to get us moving forward.

Winks is a nice player but that’s it. He’s another Carroll and Mason. He’s never going to be a top CM. Squad player at best. Unless he starts to show some bottle on the ball and gets the game moving forward.

 

[braineclipse]

Yes they did to an extent but Winks is not brave on the ball. He does not pass the ball through the lines. He used to do it early on but he’s not these days.
Our two deepest midfielders done a lot of hiding behind players on Sunday and showed little bravery to get us moving forward.

Winks is a nice player but that’s it. He’s another Carroll and Mason. He’s never going to be a top CM. Squad player at best. Unless he starts to show some bottle on the ball and gets the game moving forward.

There are top level deep playmakers that if put into this team would make an immediate difference trough sheer quality.

Winks is not that player. What he has shown is that when the system suits him and those around him play well in that system he can be a very good and effective player.

Will be interesting to see how our new manager evaluates these things. Can see it going a number of different ways. But if a new manager sees as little use in him as Mourinho eventually did then there's no reason for him to stick around.

 

[djp82]

There are top level deep playmakers that if put into this team would make an immediate difference trough sheer quality.

Winks is not that player. What he has shown is that when the system suits him and those around him play well in that system he can be a very good and effective player.

Will be interesting to see how our new manager evaluates these things. Can see it going a number of different ways. But if a new manager sees as little use in him as Mourinho eventually did then there's no reason for him to stick around.

Will be very interesting to see what a new manager makes of this squad. We need a passer in the midfield. Deeper or more attacking I’m not sure . Some will say Ndombele or Lo Celso but they just don’t show enough of it.

 

[braineclipse]

Will be very interesting to see what a new manager makes of this squad. We need a passer in the midfield. Deeper or more attacking I’m not sure . Some will say Ndombele or Lo Celso but they just don’t show enough of it.

Think both are showing good promise, but injuries, lack of fitness and form makes it difficult to evaluate.

Think a new manager can make a big difference for some of these players, but it will be a big job to find that balance, drill that structure, weed out the weaker links and find what we need in terms of upgrades.