Guglielmo Vicario

[Raziel]

Consistently get free kicks?

Exactly .. fudge this commentary that Vicario has a weakness or he somehow soft at coming for the ball, he isn't which is why City came up with this target (i.e. he nullifies so many crosses/corners that they needed a mechanism).

The ref/VAR fudged up by setting this as a precedent, so now we have to wait until it becomes so blatant that they change the rules or it happens to Liverpool or Arsenal (same result).

Everton's first goal is madness, the player runs away from the ball and into Vicario (no intention of playing the ball), and like Friday's goal, you can't be "strong" when your feet are off the ground, which is exactly the reason why over the years keepers are protected.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Said on the (Norwegian) commentary that a lot of keepers now prefer to deal with opponents putting them under pressure like that for corners on their own.

It's difficult, but adding another teammate makes it more crowded and in some ways can make it harder.

Don't know what will be right for us and Vic, but we need to find a good solution. Seems obvious that we can't rely on refs and VAR to help us out. So either Vic needs to be stronger and a bit more aggressive in how he deals with it himself (think keepers can get away with quite a lot in those situations) or he needs some help. Teams will keep doing this as long as it's seen as a weakness.

He just needs to get off the ground and catch or punhc
He is getting contact because he is static and he is palming the ball
Two errors or aspects of poor technique (I’m sure there is a reason and an argument why)
These crosses he has crumbled at aren’t high

 

[braineclipse]

Wouldn't the idea be they step away taking the oppo player with them. Giving the gk space?

Yes, if you succeed at that. But you won't always succeed at that. Opponents won't usually go along with stepping away. Then it becomes more crowded.

 

[Lilbaz]

Yes, if you succeed at that. But you won't always succeed at that. Opponents won't usually go along with stepping away. Then it becomes more crowded.

So the alternative is leave 3 oppo players around your gk?

We need to do something.

 

[braineclipse]

So the alternative is leave 3 oppo players around your gk?

We need to do something.

I was pointing out what I understood as an informed position on why some teams and goalkeepers prefer not to put a defender in there with the goalkeeper to compete with the opponent.

I don't understand how you got from that to asking me if we should leave 3 opponents around our goalkeeper.

I'll restate my opinion as apparently that wasn't clear:

"Either Vic needs to be stronger and a bit more aggressive in how he deals with it himself (think keepers can get away with quite a lot in those situations) or he needs some help"

 

[Bedfordspurs]

There isn’t an alternative

The key is Vicario does his job

Look at the reaction of the players after the goal to see what they think

The defensive tactics work. Everyone does their job and it’s defended.

As a few non spurs people have mentioned, this is what De Gea went though. People realised his technique wasn’t great so targeted it

He has to have one weakness because so far he has been outstanding

 

[braineclipse]

There isn’t an alternative

The key is Vicario does his job

Look at the reaction of the players after the goal to see what they think

The defensive tactics work. Everyone does their job and it’s defended.

As a few non spurs people have mentioned, this is what De Gea went though. People realised his technique wasn’t great so targeted it

He has to have one weakness because so far he has been outstanding

What du you mean that there isn't an alternative?

 

[monkeybarry]

The player marking Vic wouldn’t move
That’s their job
Stay on the keeper

You have to stop them earlier. Block them off whilst the corner is being set up. Stop them getting exactly where they want to be.
Marginal gains for the actual corner and increased likelihood they try a different tactic later on.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You have to stop them earlier. Block them off whilst the corner is being set up. Stop them getting exactly where they want to be.
Marginal gains for the actual corner and increased likelihood they try a different tactic later on.

You then run the rule of giving a foul away
I’d say the way we have be dealings in set ounces has been fine
What’s happened is we have had two moments where Vic thought he was fouled. That’s it.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

What du you mean that there isn't an alternative?i

I mean for us as a team, there isn’t an alternative

The way we have been defending has worked.

 

[Raziel]

There isn’t an alternative

The key is Vicario does his job

Look at the reaction of the players after the goal to see what they think

The defensive tactics work. Everyone does their job and it’s defended.

As a few non spurs people have mentioned, this is what De Gea went though. People realised his technique wasn’t great so targeted it

He has to have one weakness because so far he has been outstanding

I disagree, while we could be better at dealing with it (other players can help Vicario as well), I think there is fundamentally rules being broken here

We are seeing players being assigned to block another players path regardless of where the ball is, are we saying I could get 4 players to stand around a keeper regardless of where the ball is and not let him move? and that's no foul?

De Gea was an elite level shot stopper with nothing else to his game, not particularly comparable. The issue here is Spurs has been a lot better at defending because Vicario comes for stuff, Pep figured out a way to cheat it (his sides always push the limits of brick like tactical fouling), and now it's a precedent

 

[braineclipse]

You then run the rule of giving a foul away
I’d say the way we have be dealings in set ounces has been fine
What’s happened is we have had two moments where Vic thought he was fouled. That’s it.

It's not just two moments. We struggled against City before the goal with similar situations. We similarly struggled for most of the corners in the first half against Everton.

We have overall defended set pieces really well this season. The problem is if this is a weakness other teams haven't been targeting that much this season, but seeing the problems we've had with it now other teams may target that more leading to it becoming (even) more of a recurring issue.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I disagree, while we could be better at dealing with it (other players can help Vicario as well), I think there is fundamentally rules being broken here

We are seeing players being assigned to block another players path regardless of where the ball is, are we saying I could get 4 players to stand around a keeper regardless of where the ball is and not let him move? and that's no foul?

De Gea was an elite level shot stopper with nothing else to his game, not particularly comparable. The issue here is Spurs has been a lot better at defending because Vicario comes for stuff, Pep figured out a way to cheat it (his sides always push the limits of brick like tactical fouling), and now it's a precedent

It’s not a foul to stand still around a player
That player has to move around you
It’s the players prerogative to move or not
The key is the movement into the keeper
And I thought city did foul him. Said it at the time. There was no effort to go for the ball and he moved after Vicario moved

Everton.. slightly different. Harrison moved all the time until the ball was struck when he stepped back

 

[braineclipse]

I mean for us as a team, there isn’t an alternative

The way we have been defending has worked.

There is. Either Vic deals with it better or he gets help from someone.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

It's not just two moments. We struggled against City before the goal with similar situations. We similarly struggled for most of the corners in the first half against Everton.

We have overall defended set pieces really well this season. The problem is if this is a weakness other teams haven't been targeting that much this season, but seeing the problems we've had with it now other teams may target that more leading to it becoming (even) more of a recurring issue.

We dealt with all the corners before and after the ones we conceded from
It’s why our record on defending set pieces is so good
If teams target it more, Vic needs to move more. Use his 190cm height and jump
They (Everton) targeted him and had 2 chances form corners. One scored and one saved with his feet. That was from 9 corners

city had 14 corners and scored one.

What we do, normally do on corners, is have bentacur front post which is a strength of his. The two we have concede from have been when he wasn’t there

 

[braineclipse]

I disagree, while we could be better at dealing with it (other players can help Vicario as well), I think there is fundamentally rules being broken here

We are seeing players being assigned to block another players path regardless of where the ball is, are we saying I could get 4 players to stand around a keeper regardless of where the ball is and not let him move? and that's no foul?

De Gea was an elite level shot stopper with nothing else to his game, not particularly comparable. The issue here is Spurs has been a lot better at defending because Vicario comes for stuff, Pep figured out a way to cheat it (his sides always push the limits of brick like tactical fouling), and now it's a precedent

Doesn't matter much if it's "cheating" or "rules being broken" unless the refs call it as such.

Perhaps we've been slightly unlucky in that marginal calls have gone against us, but they imo are marginal calls. Particularly the Everton one imo doesn't get overturned by VAR if the ref gives it. But those will happen, if teams now target this it will continue to happen. And we're seeing that the refs won't protect us from us conceding from those situations. So the players and the coaches will have to find a solution.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

There is. Either Vic deals with it better or he gets help from someone.

How do you help him? You can’t stand on the attacker
He just needs to do his job better. He is more than capable
Look at the reaction of the the players after the goal. The complaining only came from Vic

 

[braineclipse]

We dealt with all the corners before and after the ones we conceded from
It’s why our record on defending set pieces is so good
If teams target it more, Vic needs to move more. Use his 190cm height and jump
They (Everton) targeted him and had 2 chances form corners. One scored and one saved with his feet. That was from 9 corners

city had 14 corners and scored one.

What we do, normally do on corners, is have bentacur front post which is a strength of his. The two we have concede from have been when he wasn’t there

I disagree fundamentally that because they didn't score from others it's just those two moments that were the problem. We struggled repeatedly even though they "only" scored twice. Though two goals from 23 corners is a lot (ignoring sample size issue).

I agree that Vic should try to do more. If he tries to, but fails other alternatives have to be considered.

 

[monkeybarry]

You then run the rule of giving a foul away
I’d say the way we have be dealings in set ounces has been fine
What’s happened is we have had two moments where Vic thought he was fouled. That’s it.

It's just about positioning and small movements. Nothing that would risk a foul. All you need to do is gain a half second.

Agreed. And against a Sean Dyche team - every team will struggle against that, and do.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I disagree fundamentally that because they didn't score from others it's just those two moments that were the problem. We struggled repeatedly even though they "only" scored twice. Though two goals from 23 corners is a lot (ignoring sample size issue).

I agree that Vic should try to do more. If he tries to, but fails other alternatives have to be considered.

But we haven’t conceded from a corner all season other than the Brighton worldie which is tenuous to call it a corner
The fact that two teams now target Vicario says how well we and he has been doing
He has to develop his game for it