Free Palestine. Yes or No?

[Yid (Israel)]

Who is 'you?' Me? Because I certainly have never said such a thing?

Is it the Arabs? Well, no?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

The Iranians? Even as scummy as they are, they, along with every single other member of the OIC, agreed on the above plan. Even Hamas, who I fudging despise: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...pports-two-state-solution/UPI-63241304578800/

All strange things to be doing for a group of people that apparently want to wipe Israel off the map.

Whose avatar? I can't see anyone with a map of that region with the Palestinian flag on it.

In what capacity did you 'visit' the West Bank and Gaza. I'm assuming it wasn't in as quite an informal setting as I did.....

I see your "Arab Peace Initiative" and raise you by this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit

and dozens of other cases where peace was offered to Arafat or his successors and they declined. As Abba Eban said "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity..." he made that quote after the Geneva peace talks back in 1973, by the way. Same was in 1948 when you think about it- a 2 states solution was offered then (and accepted by the UN), and the arabs went to war instead of accepting it. Went all-in instead of cashing in what they've got and lost almost everything.

arab-spurs avatar is Israel's map with the palestinian flag on it- obviously suggests there should be a Palestinian state where the state of Israel is now. And I've been to the west bank and Gaza as a soldier with the IDF, obviously.

 

[COYS]

My point is the Palestinians blame the Jews for the fact they're living in poverty. Well let me tell you now, in every Arab state that hasn't had the amazing fortune and blessing of oil, poverty is as rife there as it is in Palestine. I'm not trying to seek sympathy from accusing the Palestinians of being anti-Semitic. All I'm saying is they're using the good old spacegoats. But it's better this time, because now the Jews have a strong army, and will certainly not succumb this time, and have a large amount of international aid (particularly from the US)

The Palestinians are exactly like the IRA, and are no different in any way whatsoever. We gave the IRA a bit of land, but that wasn't enough so the IRA had to go and bomb the land they wanted, as well as us. People were quick to call the IRA terrorists, but it seems nobody can see the same thing when it comes to Palestine

 

[Phil Horatio]

I wouldn't really know where to begin with that!... I only hope any negotiators have a firmer grasp of natural justice, history and reality!

 

[COYS]

Negotiators never get anywhere because the answer to everything seems to be the threat of bombs!

And I fear that if the Palestinians can take Israel through bombing, then other countries will be led to believe that if you drop bombs on a territory you will be able to claim it as your own, rather than through peaceful talks and negotiations

 

[NewYorkSpurs]

Negotiators never get anywhere because the answer to everything seems to be the threat of bombs!

And I fear that if the Palestinians can take Israel through bombing, then other countries will be led to believe that if you drop bombs on a territory you will be able to claim it as your own, rather than through peaceful talks and negotiations

Negotiators never get anywhere because the Palestinian leadership can't guarantee the Israeli government safety if a two-state solution is implemented and because the Palestinians insist on the right of return. Admittedly, the leadership in Israel now is far more right wing than it has been in recent memory, so this isn't helping either. BUT, the right of return will never happen. Until that is given up, we'll remain at an impasse.

 

[parklane1]

yes

 

[Hootnow]

I see your "Arab Peace Initiative" and raise you by this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit

and dozens of other cases where peace was offered to Arafat or his successors and they declined. As Abba Eban said "The Palestinians never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity..." he made that quote after the Geneva peace talks back in 1973, by the way. Same was in 1948 when you think about it- a 2 states solution was offered then (and accepted by the UN), and the arabs went to war instead of accepting it. Went all-in instead of cashing in what they've got and lost almost everything.

arab-spurs avatar is Israel's map with the palestinian flag on it- obviously suggests there should be a Palestinian state where the state of Israel is now. And I've been to the west bank and Gaza as a soldier with the IDF, obviously.

I'm not trying to get into a tinkling contest about who has rejected more deals. I'm outlining the ridiculousness of one of those little soundbites that is repeated so often by certain people. The Arab world and Middle East is tired of war and tired of fighting. Even the most Anti-Israeli people in the region pretty much accept the presence of the Israeli state now. So to suggest that 'they' want the replacement of your state is wrong.

Yid(Israel), genuine question. How would you have responded, as a Palestinian Arab, in 1948? How would you have responded in the time since? How would you respond now?

Fair enough, can't see that for some reason. Not the best idea to have that really. And yes, that was what I meant. And with all due respect, I know a few Jews (secular, liberal, no prior links with the state of Israel) who exercised their right of return to Israel, joined the IDF for a year or two and came back with radically more extreme views. The IDF, indeed any army or armed force, is hardly a breeding ground for progressive, tolerant thinking.

 

[Hootnow]

Anyone who pities the plight of the Palestinians and feels badly about their lack of attention and care, need only look at every single Arab country in the Middle East. The have consistently done nothing for the Palestinians, nor have they ever supported them. They just use the Palestinians as an anti-Western and anti-Israeli battle cry. Arab governments show that they think of Palestinians as second class citizens, pawns to be used in a political game against the West. What have they ever done to better the lives of Palestinians? The Six-Day War and Yom Kippur War weren't for the Palestinians, they were to destroy Israel in support of Pan-Arabism in 56 and 67, and in 73, to regain the land they lost when Israel utterly wrecked them in 67.

I don't see how the two are linked? So people shouldn't feel sympathy for the Palestinians...because Arab dictators are pricks? Dictators (most of them in the pocket of the US) in self-serving behaviour shocker.

The people of the Arab countries are devestated for the Palestinians. And hopefully the Arab response will be improved with democracy starting to kick off in the region.

I could get into a protracted debate about this very easily, but I won't since the guy who started this thread didn't want it. I will just say this. If the Palestinian leadership gave up their dream of the "right of return," things would move a lot faster. Also, the Israelis need to stop settlement expansion.

But I don't want to debate!!!

Ideologically, I don't think they should give up the right of return. They used to live in that land. I know Palestinians who still have the documents and keys to their property that they were either thrown out of or fled due to news of massacres reaching them. And its a bit of a tinkletake that Jews who have no recent link whatsoever to that area have a right to return, yet the Arabs who have been there for decades or centuries have no such right.

Still, Israel has made it quite clear that this is a completely and utterly non-negotiable matter (despite the fact that I'm almost certain that neither Egypt nor Jordan recognised Israel as a 'Jewish state' ) and so the Palestinians should be realistic and simply drop it.

Negotiators never get anywhere because the Palestinian leadership can't guarantee the Israeli government safety if a two-state solution is implemented and because the Palestinians insist on the right of return. Admittedly, the leadership in Israel now is far more right wing than it has been in recent memory, so this isn't helping either. BUT, the right of return will never happen. Until that is given up, we'll remain at an impasse.

So....historically, its all the Palestinian fault that there's no peace?

 

[Hootnow]

My point is the Palestinians blame the Jews for the fact they're living in poverty. Well let me tell you now, in every Arab state that hasn't had the amazing fortune and blessing of oil, poverty is as rife there as it is in Palestine. I'm not trying to seek sympathy from accusing the Palestinians of being anti-Semitic. All I'm saying is they're using the good old spacegoats. But it's better this time, because now the Jews have a strong army, and will certainly not succumb this time, and have a large amount of international aid (particularly from the US)

The Palestinians are exactly like the IRA, and are no different in any way whatsoever. We gave the IRA a bit of land, but that wasn't enough so the IRA had to go and bomb the land they wanted, as well as us. People were quick to call the IRA terrorists, but it seems nobody can see the same thing when it comes to Palestine

Oh thank you so much for telling me. I've never visited an Arab state before. There will be few Arab economies as reliant on external aid for its GDP as Palestine is. And unemployment is around 25% or so right? Closer to 40% in Gaza. They're using the good old scaepgoats? Its not like they're in Latin America, impoverished with the number of Jews around the area zero. It is the Israelis who are besieging Gaza. And it is the Israelis who control the West Bank and still checkpoint all over the place, build settlements, build a huge wall bigger than the one in Berlin and prevent water access and building permits. Or did I imagine all this?

When did 'we' give the Palestinians any land? And it seems to be all that people call the Palestinians. As well as an invented people, anti-semites, fundamentals etc etc.

Negotiators never get anywhere because the answer to everything seems to be the threat of bombs!

And I fear that if the Palestinians can take Israel through bombing, then other countries will be led to believe that if you drop bombs on a territory you will be able to claim it as your own, rather than through peaceful talks and negotiations

How did Israel take the land, in 1948 and since?

Where was the threat of bombs in the Arab Peace plan, endorsed unanimously by every single member of the OIC? Step away from all the old, tired stereotypes.

 

[Phil Horatio]

Negotiators never get anywhere because the answer to everything seems to be the threat of bombs!

And I fear that if the Palestinians can take Israel through bombing, then other countries will be led to believe that if you drop bombs on a territory you will be able to claim it as your own, rather than through peaceful talks and negotiations

Mate, is this post meant to be ironic? :-/

 

[Hootnow]

I don't believe there will ever not be a Jewish state in the Middle East with Jerusalem serving as a Capital. Whether there will be a Palestine or not, I am not sure.

I have no grudges against the Palestinians, but what I do have a problem with is bombs being let off left, right and centre. I can't see the Arabs ever stopping until the whole of Israel comes under their control, even if the Jews were just left with the Negev desert. I don't believe Israel are innocent, but by no means are they anywhere near as guilty as the Palestinians who coordinate unjustified attacks on Israelis and other countries, just because a Jewish homeland exists in the state of Israel.

You must also remember that the US will always be on Israel's side, and it is for this reason $2 billion is given to Israel by the US government each year. Why? Because Israel is arguably the most democratic and fair country in the Middle East, and the US would like to maintain a military presence there. In my opinion Israel are the 51st state - if the US say jump, Israel say "how high?". Would the Palestinians be as democratic as the Israelis? I doubt it, and that's why the US would rather establish a military presence in Israel rather than Palestine

You know COYS, you were complaining about anti-semitism before but you're getting dangerously close to it yourself here. You seem to have a very black and white view of this. Arabs=violents. Jews=poor defendants. Most of the Arabs have already stopped. They're sick of war. They're sick of fighting. They're fully aware of the fact that any kind of military victory is further away than it has ever been. They've already offered Israel the Arab Peace Plan, a strange move for a group that apparently wants to wipe it off the map.

Don't flatter yourself there. You could have stuck 6 million Native Americans, or 6 million Caucasians, or 6 million Blacks there and they almost certainly would have responded the same. I think maybe the theft of their land, their homes and subsequent wars, occupation and the building of a separation wall may explain their anger slightly better than a sudden bout of racism against a people that they'd been living alongside relatively peacefully for centuries before the end of WW1.

:~ Why on earth should US interests determine justice for millions of people in a land nowhere near them? Why should that come into a debate about whether or not the Palestinians should be freed? And the Americans don't care about democracy, as long as you listen (Mubarak), they'll give you a nice package ($1.3 billion a year).

 

[Yid (Israel)]

I'm not trying to get into a tinkling contest about who has rejected more deals. I'm outlining the ridiculousness of one of those little soundbites that is repeated so often by certain people. The Arab world and Middle East is tired of war and tired of fighting. Even the most Anti-Israeli people in the region pretty much accept the presence of the Israeli state now. So to suggest that 'they' want the replacement of your state is wrong.

Yid(Israel), genuine question. How would you have responded, as a Palestinian Arab, in 1948? How would you have responded in the time since? How would you respond now?

Fair enough, can't see that for some reason. Not the best idea to have that really. And yes, that was what I meant. And with all due respect, I know a few Jews (secular, liberal, no prior links with the state of Israel) who exercised their right of return to Israel, joined the IDF for a year or two and came back with radically more extreme views. The IDF, indeed any army or armed force, is hardly a breeding ground for progressive, tolerant thinking.

You'd be surprised but I'm very left-wing in my opinions (at least whats considered that here in Israel), i'm just a realist too. To suggest that the Palestinians as a whole and the entire arab world are "tired of war" and just want peace with us is as ridiculous as it is a dangerous belief. If we were naive enough to think that, we would have been wiped out long ago. And are Israelis not tired of the same war? do you think I wanted to spend 3 years of my life in the army? do you think I want my son/daughter to do that when they turn 18?

What am I supposed to conclude from arab-spurs avatar? is it not the replacement of the Jewish state of Israel with a Palestinian state? is he "tired of war" and just want peace with me? I know I definitely want peace with them, and for the Palestinians to have their own state. It's just that I want to know they won't attack me the second they start it, and for it to be in the West bank and in Gaza and not where Tel Aviv or Haifa is now, and I believe we should keep hold of most of Jerusalem.

One last thing, about 1948. Why did the Jews accept but the arabs (were not called Palestinians back then) did not? they wanted it all, everything the brits and the turks before them controlled between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean, the Hermon Mountain to Eilat. Ben Gurion and co were smarter than that, fortunately.

 

[Hootnow]

You'd be surprised but I'm very left-wing in my opinions (at least whats considered that here in Israel), i'm just a realist too. To suggest that the Palestinians as a whole and the entire arab world are "tired of war" and just want peace with us is as ridiculous as it is a dangerous belief. If we were naive enough to think that, we would have been wiped out long ago. And are Israelis not tired of the same war? do you think I wanted to spend 3 years of my life in the army? do you think I want my son/daughter to do that when they turn 18?

What am I supposed to conclude from arab-spurs avatar? is it not the replacement of the Jewish state of Israel with a Palestinian state? is he "tired of war" and just want peace with me? I know I definitely want peace with them, and for the Palestinians to have their own state. It's just that I want to know they won't attack me the second they start it, and for it to be in the West bank and in Gaza and not where Tel Aviv or Haifa is now, and I believe we should keep hold of most of Jerusalem.

One last thing, about 1948. Why did the Jews accept but the arabs (were not called Palestinians back then) did not? they wanted it all, everything the brits and the turks before them controlled between the Jordan river and the Mediterranean, the Hermon Mountain to Eilat. Ben Gurion and co were smarter than that, fortunately.

Israelis said the same after the peace treaty with Egypt. How did that work out? 30+ years of peace, between the two greatest military powers in the region. Its been cold certainly but its been peace. And I'm talking about now, not 1967. I don't think the Politicians seem particularly tired of war.

I don't know, why don't you ask him? The rhetoric of a lot of Arabs and what they'd actually be willing for their countries to do is very different now.

Probably because they had been promised the land by the British during the first world war and were subsequently screwed over by them and the French. But they should have simply accepted it certainly. You still haven't answered my question though btw.

 

[Yid (Israel)]

Israelis said the same after the peace treaty with Egypt. How did that work out? 30+ years of peace, between the two greatest military powers in the region. Its been cold certainly but its been peace. And I'm talking about now, not 1967. I don't think the Politicians seem particularly tired of war.

I don't know, why don't you ask him? The rhetoric of a lot of Arabs and what they'd actually be willing for their countries to do is very different now.

Probably because they had been promised the land by the British during the first world war and were subsequently screwed over by them and the French. But they should have simply accepted it certainly. You still haven't answered my question though btw.

We made peace with Egypt because they had a brave president who was willing to do it. The offer is always there for Syria and other arab countries but their politicians haven't got the balls to do something about it. Syria will not negotiate with Israel at all, they have stated that millions of times. In fact, I really can't think of a people more tired of war than us. The Jews have been in war for existance for a lot of years, you know.

His Avatar speaks for him really. He does not think we deserve any part of territory in the area. And it doesn't surprise me one bit, because I live here and I know what we are willing to give up for peace (a lot, really) and what the Palestinians are (almost nothing. try to talk to most of them about not controlling the whole of Jerusalem and you'll see i'm right. even though the city is mostly populated by Jews etc)

About your question, I don't think I got your point. Obviously if I was a smart Palestinian arab I would have wanted a state and would have accepted? BTW, The British promised the Jews a state too, you know. Balfour Declaration of 1917. So my point stands, the Jews were smart enough to accept a 2 state solution, the arabs were not. They were not "screwed over" by anybody but themselves.

 

[Hootnow]

We made peace with Egypt because they had a brave president who was willing to do it. The offer is always there for Syria and other arab countries but their politicians haven't got the balls to do something about it. Syria will not negotiate with Israel at all, they have stated that millions of times. In fact, I really can't think of a people more tired of war than us. The Jews have been in war for existance for a lot of years, you know.

His Avatar speaks for him really. He does not think we deserve any part of territory in the area. And it doesn't surprise me one bit, because I live here and I know what we are willing to give up for peace (a lot, really) and what the Palestinians are (almost nothing. try to talk to most of them about not controlling the whole of Jerusalem and you'll see i'm right. even though the city is mostly populated by Jews etc)

About your question, I don't think I got your point. Obviously if I was a smart Palestinian arab I would have wanted a state and would have accepted? BTW, The British promised the Jews a state too, you know. Balfour Declaration of 1917. So my point stands, the Jews were smart enough to accept a 2 state solution, the arabs were not. They were not "screwed over" by anybody but themselves.

I meant that there were misgivings about peace with Egypt, and people who suspected that it wasn't a sincere offer and the Egyptians would renege on the offer as soon as they could. Which seems to have been the default position any time such a thing has been reached in the present.

I've just been to the West Bank. Most of the Palestians my wife and I spoke to said they'd lost their land, driven out or fled. The ones outside Jerusalem said they cannot access this city. Not a single one of them said anything about 'the Jews' in fact, most of them explicitly stated they have no problem with Jews. And all of them are ready to forget and move on. With East Jerusalam as their capital.

I know they did. My point was the Arabs fought because they had fought the Ottomans in WW1 after the British promised them their own country if they helped. This didn't occur. The British also promised part of the land to the Jews. Its the kind of morals you possess when you're a superpower. Are you telling me that, as an Arab Palestinian in 1948, especially if you had been driven from your home, you would have simply sauntered along happily and wanted a two state solution? That as a Palestinian in the last 60 years, you wouldn't have had even the slightest tinge of anger if you possessed the deeds to a house in Tel Aviv or Jerusalem, or if you were a refugee or if you lived in Hebron etc?

 

[Gifter]

Off on a tangent very slightly, there is some deep deep stuff with temple mount isn't there?

Both religions want it desperately, supposition that it was the site of the original soloman's temple, the Hiram Abiff allegory.

I think this is central to why both sides cannot come to resolution on this issue.

 

[Boonie]

Total thread hijack! I want to know where to get the free plastacine!

 

[COYS]

You know COYS, you were complaining about anti-semitism before but you're getting dangerously close to it yourself here. You seem to have a very black and white view of this. Arabs=violents. Jews=poor defendants. Most of the Arabs have already stopped. They're sick of war. They're sick of fighting. They're fully aware of the fact that any kind of military victory is further away than it has ever been. They've already offered Israel the Arab Peace Plan, a strange move for a group that apparently wants to wipe it off the map.

Don't flatter yourself there. You could have stuck 6 million Native Americans, or 6 million Caucasians, or 6 million Blacks there and they almost certainly would have responded the same. I think maybe the theft of their land, their homes and subsequent wars, occupation and the building of a separation wall may explain their anger slightly better than a sudden bout of racism against a people that they'd been living alongside relatively peacefully for centuries before the end of WW1.

:~ Why on earth should US interests determine justice for millions of people in a land nowhere near them? Why should that come into a debate about whether or not the Palestinians should be freed? And the Americans don't care about democracy, as long as you listen (Mubarak), they'll give you a nice package ($1.3 billion a year).

Whoah whoah whoah. I'm not suggesting anything like that. There's a small minority of Jews who are violent and a small minority of Arabs who are violent. Does that mean they should go around dropping bombs on each other, just because a Jewish homeland exists? Absolutely not. Where should the Jewish homeland exist? What does it mean for Palestine to be 'Free'? Does it mean that the State of Israel comes under Arab rule, or that the wall is knocked down within the West Bank, or perhaps even something else? I would love to know.

The thing is while Israel are in control the Israelis see no reason to bomb the Arabs, as the majority are thankfully doing nothing. This would probably be the other way round if the Arabs were in control, but on a much smaller scale considering the number of Jews compared to Arabs in the world, however I'm sure there would be a minority of Jews who would fight the Arabs if the State of Israel did not exist today. But my point was while we have organisations in the world such as Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, among the many, many more, the world will never be a perfect place. Obviously Israel are not innocent, with the building of the wall in the West Bank and if I were an Arab I'd be angry too. Would I respond with fighting? No, because I was never really raised to be a fighter, and I believe fighting is wrong

And I was bringing the US up, because someone in an earlier post commented on how the US are fighting on the wrong side or something like that. Again it's debatable, and there will never be a right or a wrong, because this is a matter of opinion. Both parties are wrong, both parties are right. This is why this war will never end. This argument will never end. A two-state solution seems great, but I can't see it ever being enough to satisfy both parties' demands.

I'm not trying to seek sympathy, but I can never see Jews living in peace for the rest of my lifetime. Is it our fault? Maybe... Who knows?

 

[Yossarian]

Total thread hijack! I want to know where to get the free plastacine!

The voice of reason.

 

[Hootnow]

Whoah whoah whoah. I'm not suggesting anything like that. There's a small minority of Jews who are violent and a small minority of Arabs who are violent. Does that mean they should go around dropping bombs on each other, just because a Jewish homeland exists? Absolutely not. Where should the Jewish homeland exist? What does it mean for Palestine to be 'Free'? Does it mean that the State of Israel comes under Arab rule, or that the wall is knocked down within the West Bank, or perhaps even something else? I would love to know.

The thing is while Israel are in control the Israelis see no reason to bomb the Arabs, as the majority are thankfully doing nothing. This would probably be the other way round if the Arabs were in control, but on a much smaller scale considering the number of Jews compared to Arabs in the world, however I'm sure there would be a minority of Jews who would fight the Arabs if the State of Israel did not exist today. But my point was while we have organisations in the world such as Hamas, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, among the many, many more, the world will never be a perfect place. Obviously Israel are not innocent, with the building of the wall in the West Bank and if I were an Arab I'd be angry too. Would I respond with fighting? No, because I was never really raised to be a fighter, and I believe fighting is wrong

And I was bringing the US up, because someone in an earlier post commented on how the US are fighting on the wrong side or something like that. Again it's debatable, and there will never be a right or a wrong, because this is a matter of opinion. Both parties are wrong, both parties are right. This is why this war will never end. This argument will never end. A two-state solution seems great, but I can't see it ever being enough to satisfy both parties' demands.

I'm not trying to seek sympathy, but I can never see Jews living in peace for the rest of my lifetime. Is it our fault? Maybe... Who knows?

It means for Palestinians to have freedom of movement within their own lands. For the Israelis to withdraw from the West Bank, disband their checkpoints, leave the Allenby bridge, disband the disgusting wall, retreat to 1967 lines leaving behind East Jerusalem. For Palestinians to be able to go to Jerusalem and pray at Al-Aqsa. If they can't both sort themselves out, take the old city away from them and leave it under International jurisdiction, open to all. Disbanding and removing their settlements in the West Bank. Hebron especially is absolutely ridiculous. It means lifting the blockade of Gaza (I hope that the new Govt/President of Egypt lift their end and completely open the Rafah border) and allowing them the maritime areas they are allowed by international law. It means a just settlement to hundreds of thousands of refugees, displaced from their lands, a problem that the Jews of all people should be sympathetic to. The State of Israel should be the state of Israel. I agree with Hitchens that it shouldn't have been set up in the first place but, now that it is there and the only way for it not to be there is genocide or mass ethnic cleansing, it must forever stay there, secure and hopefully living in peace with its neighbours.

Hamas, Netanyahu, Lieberman. All sides of the same coin and all standing in the way of peace in the region. Despicable.

I honestly don't know what I'd do as a Palestinian now. Violence hasn't worked. Negotiations haven't worked. Day by day, life is getting harder. The future potential area of your state is getting smaller and smaller. Your leaders are corrupt. The world doesn't seem to care. The world's sole superpower is so ridiculously biased against you its ridiculous and its politicians fall over themselves to express their love for the other side. The settlements and Israeli policies are making a two state solution more and more difficult. And last time I went? It felt like they'd given up hope, like they'd lost their spirits, like they'd been crushed. Which I guess is what Netanyahu wants.

They didn't even say anything slightly controversial. They said the new settlements are a disgrace and the US should lean on Israel to stop them. He didn't even say that there also almost certainly won't be peace as they mediate. Which would have been correct.

So effectively, the Israelis enjoy a good life and the Palestinians live like cattle? Would you have the same sentiments if the situation was reversed? No thanks, I'd rather the millions of people on both sides live in a just manner. If the Americans become more neutral, hopefully we'll start getting somewhere.