Hootnow
Jermaine Jenas
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Couldn't agree with the final bit (ending religion) more and the first part less.
As far as I know, Washington's and Mandela's mandates were to attack military installations, and to describe the HQ of opposition forces as a hotel is disingenuous at best. As far as I know, Mandela and Washington never intentionally targetted non-combatants, women and children as Hamas regularly does. It's absolutely correct to restrict our negotiations to those who are firstly, properly and democratically elected and secondly, those who conduct themselves in a manner which can be separated from the actions of vicious, mindless animals.
From a personal point of view, there cannot be a two state solution as I'm not sure I could bear hearing champagne socialists bleat on about it any more. Equally whenever I'm in such a quandry as this, there's a very simple question to ask oneself - What would Coldplay do? Do whatever the polar opposite of that answer is and you can't be far wrong.
I've done plenty of reading on the subject. Visiting is unlikely - I very much doubt the area has either the hotels or the restaurants required for me to spend time there.
Hootnow
Jermaine Jenas
Considering your previous views on the topic, your posts in this thread and your bristling at anyone from Europe taking even a small amount of liberty or freedom from you, I would suggest you haven't been doing it quite right. And you'd be going to see what is going on, not to dine in Michelin star restaurants.
Just one point. In the last decade or so, the numbers killed is 3:1 or so. That proportion is also true for child deaths.
Anyway, the OP asked for no debate so I'll leave it there and pick it up in a different thread in the future if necessary. Best just to believe that the Palestinians are an invented people who are all terrorists, want to wipe Israel off the map and hate our Western freedoms.
Just one point. In the last decade or so, the numbers killed is 3:1 or so. That proportion is also true for child deaths.
Anyway, the OP asked for no debate so I'll leave it there and pick it up in a different thread in the future if necessary. Best just to believe that the Palestinians are an invented people who are all terrorists, want to wipe Israel off the map and hate our Western freedoms.
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Then no thanks. If I want to go somewhere,hate being there and be distraught by what I see around me I'll save myself a fortune and go to Liverpool for a weekend.
It's not about the numbers, it's about what/whom you target. Civilians dying when the targets are military ones is an unfortunate part of war, targetting civilians is a different matter entirely.
Interesting assumption. I actually think that just over half of the population of Palestine are probably decent people, it's that 40ish% that voted for Hamas that have let their country down.
Hootnow
Jermaine Jenas
:ross: Fair enough!
Operation cast lead, the quotes that were made by Israeli military and political leaders and the use of white phosphorous in heavily civilian areas suggests no such things. At the very least, it suggests a flagrant disregard for life. That was just the last conflict.
As I said, from the person who rages at Europe taking away just a little bit of power from you and the British government, I imagine you might start doing strange things if you'd lived like the Palestinians have lived for the past 60 years. And have to negotiate with this utter numpty:
http://crooksandliars.com/ian-welsh/israeli-pm-natanyahu-america-easily-move
But best to leave it there. This wasn't intended as a discussion thread.
Phil Horatio
Gilberto
Scara, I think I can see the distinction you are trying to make.. but its an impossible can of worms, unfortunately. After all, it was the British military that helped invent the technique and performed the first carpet bombings in human history! (Mesopotamia circa 1920. Google Douhet and Trenchard)... Then evolved it (Dresden et al. which is were the term "terror bombing" actually originates!).. and lest we forget some of the responses from Churchill when militarily squeezed, advocating indiscriminate chemical attacks against German cities with the memo "it is absurd to consider morality on this topic"..
As I said, better to make haste dealing with everyone for a solution, qualifications to prevent this are mostly fanciful and hypocritical.
As I said, better to make haste dealing with everyone for a solution, qualifications to prevent this are mostly fanciful and hypocritical.
Yid (Israel)
Carlo Cudicini
Idiotic question (obviously I would be happy for there to be a free Palestinian state, but not instead of a Jewish country in Israel which is what they/you want).
And you should stop ramming your politics down people's throats, including your avatar- how would you feel if I had a map of Israel + Gaza & west bank with the star of david on it? horrified probably..
And as someone who has "visited" the west bank AND the Gaza strip, some of you people definitely don't know what the hell your'e talking 'bout...
And you should stop ramming your politics down people's throats, including your avatar- how would you feel if I had a map of Israel + Gaza & west bank with the star of david on it? horrified probably..
And as someone who has "visited" the west bank AND the Gaza strip, some of you people definitely don't know what the hell your'e talking 'bout...
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Guys I'm sorry, but the scenes are horrific on both sides - more than what the BBC are prepared to show
At regular intervals 'Qassams' are sent from Gaza to Israel. Why? Just to see how much damage it can cause. This is terrorism, as it is in response to absolutely nothing, and puts innocent lives at risk. Why should the Israelis allow anything for Gaza when this happens all the time?
I've been through the West Bank before. Yes, it's an absolute brick hole, but it's the same as the rest of Arab lands. You go to Lebanon and you see exactly the same thing. But once again the Jews have to be blamed, as if anything changes through history. Everyone had their turn in blaming the Jews, and now the Arabs feel it's theirs
At regular intervals 'Qassams' are sent from Gaza to Israel. Why? Just to see how much damage it can cause. This is terrorism, as it is in response to absolutely nothing, and puts innocent lives at risk. Why should the Israelis allow anything for Gaza when this happens all the time?
I've been through the West Bank before. Yes, it's an absolute brick hole, but it's the same as the rest of Arab lands. You go to Lebanon and you see exactly the same thing. But once again the Jews have to be blamed, as if anything changes through history. Everyone had their turn in blaming the Jews, and now the Arabs feel it's theirs
Hootnow
Jermaine Jenas
Who is 'you?' Me? Because I certainly have never said such a thing?
Is it the Arabs? Well, no?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative
The Iranians? Even as scummy as they are, they, along with every single other member of the OIC, agreed on the above plan. Even Hamas, who I fudging despise: http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-N...pports-two-state-solution/UPI-63241304578800/
All strange things to be doing for a group of people that apparently want to wipe Israel off the map.
Whose avatar? I can't see anyone with a map of that region with the Palestinian flag on it.
In what capacity did you 'visit' the West Bank and Gaza. I'm assuming it wasn't in as quite an informal setting as I did.....
Hootnow
Jermaine Jenas
Must we jump to the old antisemitism every time this pops up? How many Lebanese are stopped from going to Beirut? How many of them have settlers within their towns and around their villages? Do they have a wall bigger than the Berlin wall currently being built through their country, not along what most countries and International observers consider what should be the borders of the 2 states in the future? Are they allowed to build on land that should technically be theirs, again within International law? http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-hills-palestine-is-slowly-dying-1883669.html
Come on COYS, you're more intelligent than that. The rockets are disgusting. Hamas are disgusting. I hope, unless they moderate themselves exceedingly quickly, Hamas tinkle right off and let everyone get down to the serious business of a just pace between the two states, Israel and Palestine, side by side in peace and security. I hope the same for old 'Bibi' and Avigdor as well. But do you want to explain why, after the lull following Cast lead, in August, September and October, when 10 rockets were fired over those 3 months (one each in the last two months) and no-one on either side was killed, did the IDF then decide to cross back into Gaza and kill 15 Palestinians? Which, lo and behold, led to the number of rockets being fired going back up to their 'normal' levels?
NewYorkSpurs
Steven Caulker
Tremendously ardent supporter of Israel here. I fully support a two state solution. Will it ever happen successfully? Probably not.
Hootnow
Jermaine Jenas
Looking increasingly like it. And it makes me so sad because I want these two peoples to be able to live side by side, peacefully and in a just manner.
NewYorkSpurs
Steven Caulker
I could get into a protracted debate about this very easily, but I won't since the guy who started this thread didn't want it. I will just say this. If the Palestinian leadership gave up their dream of the "right of return," things would move a lot faster. Also, the Israelis need to stop settlement expansion.
But I don't want to debate!!!
Leeds Spur
Banned
The new settlements are a disgrace.....the US should lean on them more but any time a President grows some balls the pro-Israeli lobby goes mental.
Especially after 9/11 basically any Muslim is considered a terrorist and their is little sympathy for the Palestinian plight in the general population, hence no action will be taken.
There are lots of Jews in Florida and New York though, lots of electoral college votes!!
Especially after 9/11 basically any Muslim is considered a terrorist and their is little sympathy for the Palestinian plight in the general population, hence no action will be taken.
There are lots of Jews in Florida and New York though, lots of electoral college votes!!
NewYorkSpurs
Steven Caulker
Anyone who pities the plight of the Palestinians and feels badly about their lack of attention and care, need only look at every single Arab country in the Middle East. The have consistently done nothing for the Palestinians, nor have they ever supported them. They just use the Palestinians as an anti-Western and anti-Israeli battle cry. Arab governments show that they think of Palestinians as second class citizens, pawns to be used in a political game against the West. What have they ever done to better the lives of Palestinians? The Six-Day War and Yom Kippur War weren't for the Palestinians, they were to destroy Israel in support of Pan-Arabism in 56 and 67, and in 73, to regain the land they lost when Israel utterly wrecked them in 67.
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I don't believe there will ever not be a Jewish state in the Middle East with Jerusalem serving as a Capital. Whether there will be a Palestine or not, I am not sure.
I have no grudges against the Palestinians, but what I do have a problem with is bombs being let off left, right and centre. I can't see the Arabs ever stopping until the whole of Israel comes under their control, even if the Jews were just left with the Negev desert. I don't believe Israel are innocent, but by no means are they anywhere near as guilty as the Palestinians who coordinate unjustified attacks on Israelis and other countries, just because a Jewish homeland exists in the state of Israel.
You must also remember that the US will always be on Israel's side, and it is for this reason $2 billion is given to Israel by the US government each year. Why? Because Israel is arguably the most democratic and fair country in the Middle East, and the US would like to maintain a military presence there. In my opinion Israel are the 51st state - if the US say jump, Israel say "how high?". Would the Palestinians be as democratic as the Israelis? I doubt it, and that's why the US would rather establish a military presence in Israel rather than Palestine
I have no grudges against the Palestinians, but what I do have a problem with is bombs being let off left, right and centre. I can't see the Arabs ever stopping until the whole of Israel comes under their control, even if the Jews were just left with the Negev desert. I don't believe Israel are innocent, but by no means are they anywhere near as guilty as the Palestinians who coordinate unjustified attacks on Israelis and other countries, just because a Jewish homeland exists in the state of Israel.
You must also remember that the US will always be on Israel's side, and it is for this reason $2 billion is given to Israel by the US government each year. Why? Because Israel is arguably the most democratic and fair country in the Middle East, and the US would like to maintain a military presence there. In my opinion Israel are the 51st state - if the US say jump, Israel say "how high?". Would the Palestinians be as democratic as the Israelis? I doubt it, and that's why the US would rather establish a military presence in Israel rather than Palestine