Frank Give him time or get rid?

[braineclipse]

It appears we are simply not interested in signing midfielders who can offer a progressive pass option from deeper positions. Maddison would often drop in and pick the ball up off the CBs so as he could carry and then thread a pass into the forwards/attacking players. Right now, the only person to really do that is Romero (Porro sometimes).

I think it's in part difficulties finding players that can do that while also being defensively and physically good enough for that role in the PL.

Maddison was massively important to us in the previous two seasons and a big miss now.

 

[braineclipse]

I don't see that at all. We've very rarely played a high press this season and when we have it has been a coherent, well drilled one even more rarely.

Think it was better earlier this season. Injuries and fatigue a part of that probably.

How easily our high press is bypassed combined with how rarely we win possession definitely is a concern. But I do think a high press is something Frank wants from the team in phases.

 

[Mr Gogolak]

I don't see that at all. We've very rarely played a high press this season and when we have it has been a coherent, well drilled one even more rarely.

I don't hate myself enough to look back any further than the Villa game but, although it was poorly done, there were quite a few instances where they cut through our team in their own half because we were - impotantly - trying to press closer to their box. It's disjointed and very poorly executed, but I think it's there... or at least there's an intent.

Unfortunately, the only thing consistent about the team at the moment are the weaknesses that have been there for over a year.

 

[Muttley]

A through ball is defined in a statistical sense as being a ball played in behind the defence/through the defensive line - that's the type of pass this stat refers to.

So are there stats that really look at how we transition through the thirds? For me this is at the crux of the conversation you\re having with Steff. Take the Poch days. We had a genius like Dembele who would always progress the ball from our defensive third to the middle third. Then we had Dele / Eriksen with Harry sometimes dropping deep that would take us through the next third with Dembele. However, we could sit for ages on that line between the middle and attacking third and just hold possession. No doubt, teams parked the bus against us and we had a real weakness when we wouldn't cross the ball when we got in the wide areas. I used to be screaming at the screen at Poch about it. So back in those days we had possession through the thirds and real paranoia about losing possession so we didn't take enough risks in the final third. We had the odd good season like 16/17 where things clicked though.

For a long time now we seem to have an issue where we cannot progress the ball through the thirds. I'm talking every manager since Poch and definitely including Ange. Our approach from the defensive to middle third is mostly built around Romero. Without Solanke, our approach to keep possession at our feet into the final third has been desperate. However, as you say if a 6 plays it to a 10 in a natural 10 position then it won't count in the "through ball" stats anyway. These are the most important balls when you have someone like Xavi or Madds in your team. You have to find your best player. Eriksen managed to always be available as he just went into marathon runner mode. He would be up there in the running stats every season because he knew he had to keep on the move to play effectively. Him and Kane both quit on this concept before they left the club. Harry was terrible at it in his last 2 seasons and the big reason his assists dried up completely. However, as we all know he still was in the right place to put the ball in the net.

I actually find this conversation interesting. I do believe people miss the biggest point about Frank and I've mentioned it loads. There has been a disease at our club for 3 seasons and that is conceding goals. He should absolutely do whatever it takes to knock 20 goals of our current league levels even if it means negative outcomes at the other end. It is by far the most important stat at our football club but will never be popular with the fans. That means Frank needs to show some deaf ears to some of the detractors who are happy with Ossie football and no trophies. Even Ange figured that out in the last part of his tenure.

 

[metalgear]

too bad Eze and MGW fell through - they would have helped plenty

and also Europa - can we agree its a European Mickey Mouse cup

 

[DeanoAustin]

too bad Eze and MGW fell through - they would have helped plenty

and also Europa - can we agree its a European Mickey Mouse cup

If we accept that, we accept that the Champions League is the only European competition worth winning. That’s ridiculous to me.

Jose Mourinho has won everything in the game. He talked up winning the Conference League with Roma. West Ham celebrated it massively. It’s a level or two below the Europa League.

To win any European competition is a magnificent achievement and you’ll rarely hear pros or people in the game talking it down. Yet, for some reason, some of our fans seem to want to.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

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I must admit, having watched this, part of me thinks it means that Frank still has upside with us. 1. Because it’s SO clear that the players haven’t grasped what he wants yet. And 2. Because Clery is talking the phases where are we not committing forward runners rather than a phase which we do. (Although I do readily admit the forward running phase of our game seems to be 30 out of the 90 maximum.)

As Clery even acknowledges, the theory behind our shape versus Villa was sound. Especially knowing they like to attack through the middle. The issue was dreadful execution. The press is still often uncoordinated when we do try to do it. But my mind doesn’t go to ‘Frank is a bad coach’ when I see this stuff. Because if Brentford’s players can do it, ours should be capable. I think it’s just a very different thing that Frank is asking our players to do compared to Ange. So my sympathy to Frank goes to the fact that he, like any of our other system managers, is implementing his own system / method and needs time to get that in place.

My ‘issue’ with Frank is that this wasn’t what was promised. Needing a season to teach players who had been all in one one way of playing, to learn a radically different one. And why is this the style and method we’re doubling down on. It all seems completely bizarre and a little needless to me. The players are also massively uncoordinated in possession, and that will likely look better too once ‘layers’ are added. I just don’t fully get why this was the route we went down. And I think the assumptions that we’ll player a nicer style under him are wrong. This is what it is. It’s what it was at Brentford. He is not looking at our squad and putting a more progressive style in place because he has better players, he’s applying his Brentford method of different phases of the game having quite different approaches. Bursts of pressing, but largely mid / low block and counter. And sometimes not even counter, but crossing.

The players will start to execute better and so I believe there is upside in that. But I do think it comes down to whether this style will be pleasing enough to people if we start to win games. Because if we don’t, he’s gone anyway.

 

[SissokoWasGood (BoL)]

So are there stats that really look at how we transition through the thirds? For me this is at the crux of the conversation you\re having with Steff. Take the Poch days. We had a genius like Dembele who would always progress the ball from our defensive third to the middle third. Then we had Dele / Eriksen with Harry sometimes dropping deep that would take us through the next third with Dembele. However, we could sit for ages on that line between the middle and attacking third and just hold possession. No doubt, teams parked the bus against us and we had a real weakness when we wouldn't cross the ball when we got in the wide areas. I used to be screaming at the screen at Poch about it. So back in those days we had possession through the thirds and real paranoia about losing possession so we didn't take enough risks in the final third. We had the odd good season like 16/17 where things clicked though.

For a long time now we seem to have an issue where we cannot progress the ball through the thirds. I'm talking every manager since Poch and definitely including Ange. Our approach from the defensive to middle third is mostly built around Romero. Without Solanke, our approach to keep possession at our feet into the final third has been desperate. However, as you say if a 6 plays it to a 10 in a natural 10 position then it won't count in the "through ball" stats anyway. These are the most important balls when you have someone like Xavi or Madds in your team. You have to find your best player. Eriksen managed to always be available as he just went into marathon runner mode. He would be up there in the running stats every season because he knew he had to keep on the move to play effectively. Him and Kane both quit on this concept before they left the club. Harry was terrible at it in his last 2 seasons and the big reason his assists dried up completely. However, as we all know he still was in the right place to put the ball in the net.

I actually find this conversation interesting. I do believe people miss the biggest point about Frank and I've mentioned it loads. There has been a disease at our club for 3 seasons and that is conceding goals. He should absolutely do whatever it takes to knock 20 goals of our current league levels even if it means negative outcomes at the other end. It is by far the most important stat at our football club but will never be popular with the fans. That means Frank needs to show some deaf ears to some of the detractors who are happy with Ossie football and no trophies. Even Ange figured that out in the last part of his tenure.

I think it’s interesting too. I don’t think Frank is doing what he’s doing because he’s curing something particular to Tottenham though. I think he’s doing it because it’s what he does, and what he’s comfortable with. I think he’d do this at any club he joined regardless of the record the previous year. We’re at the start of a cycle with him, and so right now it looks bad but there are lower goals for and against. As it gets better the goals for will creep up.

I can however totally believe that the board thought that we conceded too many goals and so hired a coach that they believed would solve it. I’m not sure they thought the attacking side would diminish so much or that it would take this long for Frank’s methods to start looking like they could work (and they haven’t yet). And if that is what happened I think it’s a bit silly. Football is a team sport and hiring a defensive coach or playing in a reactive way does not mean we’re more likely to win games that way. And actually so far the underlying numbers on this aren’t great.

My argument is that you need to give any system time to get to its peak effectiveness. Frank will get better because he will likely get time, some signings, and things will start to look better. But I don’t think it will be because he decided to focus more on attack after solving defence. I think everything will get more cohesive within his method. And equally I think we could have improved our defence with the prior regime, with less injuries, with more depth, and continual refinement of that system too. Attack can start at the back line and defence can start at the front line. And I don’t think Frank has solved defence or is even making a special effort to do so. I think he’s doing what he would have done, because this is his method and this is who he is as a coach.