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Eric Dier

Bishop said:
Their attributes are different but they essentially play the same role and Henderson is the more effective player.

Prime Wanyama is a different answer.

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I disagree.
Henderson was a wayward and untethered box-to-box galloper at Sunderland, he sat for Liverpool for a while because they had no-one, now Fabinho sits he is free to do his thing again. I would not describe Dier as a box-to-box midfielder, indeed, he is a defender converted to "destroyer" in midfield. I believe they are different types of player who have shared the same role before.

Prime Wanyama was one season: he has been awful for some time now.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Like others I’m baffled by the following and support he has on this forum, not sure what he has done to have so much credit in the bank with some particularly Scara, Bedfordspurs and Steff. He’s just about the only player on this entire forum where certain people just won’t ever admit when he’s had a bad game. It’s put down to rustiness, the nature of the passes he plays, lack of game time, other players not showing for him, the whole team was bad,just about anything other than saying Dier had a crap game. Even Lamela doesn’t have the same excuses made for him and his injury record is arguably worse than Dier’s.

He’s not a player I would like to lose but he’s also someone we could and should look to upgrade on due to his limitations on the ball. Even after his best season 2015/16, Poch went out and signed Wanyama who played more games at DM than Dier the following season and we achieved our highest points total that season.
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I said he had a very poor game vs Bayern
But imo sissoko eriksen and like lo Celso were worse as they hid

maybe people need to consider why do we get better results with him playing than we do without him playing.
 
thfcsteff said:
I disagree.
Henderson was a wayward and untethered box-to-box galloper at Sunderland, he sat for Liverpool for a while because they had no-one, now Fabinho sits he is free to do his thing again. I would not describe Dier as a box-to-box midfielder, indeed, he is a defender converted to "destroyer" in midfield. I believe they are different types of player who have shared the same role before.

Prime Wanyama was one season: he has been awful for some time now.
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As it stands i would rather have Henderson right now as he's more mobile, will get stuck in and has a better passing range.

Btw prime Wanyama pre-existed at Southampton also, we just broke him. [emoji21]

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thfcsteff said:
I hate to burst your bubble mate, but in 2016/17, Dier played one more game overall than Wanyama (48 vs 47), both as midfielders FWIW. Only Eriksen (48), Dele (50), Lloris (43) and Sonny (48) were on-par. The last time I said what I am about to say I was accused of being "patronising" (not by you to be clear) so I will try another angle.

Dier does a lot of the work no-one else in our squad is currently capable of.
I think Skipp is the natural back-up right now, but it would be folly to expect Skipp to start every game and be successful right now as he simply does not have the experience yet.
Wanyama is done. Thank you for that one season Victor, appreciated.
I see a lot of people are tagging Dier for Munich; again, I believe if you look at the side around him it is, absolutely, a major mitigating factor. That and he was not great, agreed.

I am baffled that there always appears to be a player or two that everybody jumps on who the manager appears to really like. If you don't trust your own eyes, do you trust the manager's? Do you believe they would purposely play someone who is wrecking the side?

Personally? I wish Dier had been left at home to rest. but knowing his character, he probably stepped up and told Mourinho he was more than happy to not only make the trip but lead the shadow side through the exercise.
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I certainly would not judge anybody on the bayern game, that was a cluster fudge of a team.
Really don't know what that was all about.

As for comparison with Henderson as he is now, Swop him and Dier from a functioning on form high on confidence squad into our lot and then see how they get on.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
I said he had a very poor game vs Bayern
But imo sissoko eriksen and like lo Celso were worse as they hid

maybe people need to consider why do we get better results with him playing than we do without him playing.
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Is that true? If it is it is likely to be a case of correlation doesn’t mean causation. He is just not that influential.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
I said he had a very poor game vs Bayern
But imo sissoko eriksen and like lo Celso were worse as they hid

maybe people need to consider why do we get better results with him playing than we do without him playing.
Click to expand...
Sissoko didn’t hide he never does and had a better game than Dier imo, albeit that he was not great either. That’s why Dier was substituted instead of Sissoko. Lo Celso didn’t hide either and Eriksen well he was just Eriksen.
 
milo said:
We've certainly looked a better balanced side with him in the team under Mourinho
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Definitely. Most of our good performances have come with him in our team, and the one really disappointing performance (United) came without him. Certainly doing enough to warrant continued games and time to recover his form.
 
thfcsteff said:
I hate to burst your bubble mate, but in 2016/17, Dier played one more game overall than Wanyama (48 vs 47), both as midfielders FWIW. Only Eriksen (48), Dele (50), Lloris (43) and Sonny (48) were on-par. The last time I said what I am about to say I was accused of being "patronising" (not by you to be clear) so I will try another angle.

Dier does a lot of the work no-one else in our squad is currently capable of.
I think Skipp is the natural back-up right now, but it would be folly to expect Skipp to start every game and be successful right now as he simply does not have the experience yet.
Wanyama is done. Thank you for that one season Victor, appreciated.
I see a lot of people are tagging Dier for Munich; again, I believe if you look at the side around him it is, absolutely, a major mitigating factor. That and he was not great, agreed.

I am baffled that there always appears to be a player or two that everybody jumps on who the manager appears to really like. If you don't trust your own eyes, do you trust the manager's? Do you believe they would purposely play someone who is wrecking the side?

Personally? I wish Dier had been left at home to rest. but knowing his character, he probably stepped up and told Mourinho he was more than happy to not only make the trip but lead the shadow side through the exercise.
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Dier played the majority of games at centre half when Poch changed the formation to 3-5-2 with Wanyama and Dembele in centre midfield during the 16/17 season.

I honestly don’t think anyone is “jumping on him”. Like I said before, when Kane has a bad game, people say it. When Lloris has a bad game, people admit it. When Aurier or Rose have a bad game people definitely call them on it. Dier is the only player I can see on here where people cover for him more than any other player. It’s fair to say he splits opinion. I’ll repeat what I said before, I wouldn’t want to lose him but I also think those of us who aren’t as mesmerised by him as some others are just a bit tired of his limitations on the ball and giving away possession in dangerous positions. Most people would agree him and Sissoko are both great pros but we can and absolutely should look to upgrade on them as they are both 100% upgradable.

To me, what says it all is when people say “yeah but put Dier/Sissoko next to someone who can play and we will really see the best of them”. Kind of sums it up for me really. Whereas someone like Ndombele doesn’t need a top player next to him to make him look good.
 
Finney Is Back said:
The problem is that we can say exactly the same thing about Dier.
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Are you suggesting that Dier has been as poor as Wanyama? I disagree. I am still furious at Wanyama for that Ramsey goal at Wembley last season (he was pony) and a slew of other situations where he was just poor. Look, maybe Mourinho can do a job on him but I doubt it. He does not have the mentality of Dier IMO.

I think this whole discussion is likely going to go the way of the dodo soon because we'll end up in circles and all that, but I'd be interested to see if you can point out any goals which have directly come as a result of Dier this season. Genuine question, not a wind-up or snarky comment.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
I said he had a very poor game vs Bayern
But imo sissoko eriksen and like lo Celso were worse as they hid

maybe people need to consider why do we get better results with him playing than we do without him playing.
Click to expand...

Bedfordspurs said:
I said he had a very poor game vs Bayern
But imo sissoko eriksen and like lo Celso were worse as they hid

maybe people need to consider why do we get better results with him playing than we do without him playing.
Click to expand...

Firstly it’s a very small sample size. Secondly and most importantly, Dier is not THAT effective. You could just as easily say we are winning because Lucas Moura is playing in his preferred position or because Danny Rose isn’t playing.

It’s more likely we are getting better results because Mourinho is keeping things simple, we are not playing out from the back like it’s a religion and we are getting the ball to the forwards with more efficiency I.e. Toby’s long direct passes to Alli. I’d say Alli’s form is the greatest reason why we are getting better results peronsally.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Dier played the majority of games at centre half when Poch changed the formation to 3-5-2 with Wanyama and Dembele in centre midfield during the 16/17 season.

I honestly don’t think anyone is “jumping on him”. Like I said before, when Kane has a bad game, people say it. When Lloris has a bad game, people admit it. When Aurier or Rose have a bad game people definitely call them on it. Dier is the only player I can see on here where people cover for him more than any other player. It’s fair to say he splits opinion. I’ll repeat what I said before, I wouldn’t want to lose him but I also think those of us who aren’t as mesmerised by him as some others are just a bit tired of his limitations on the ball and giving away possession in dangerous positions. Most people would agree him and Sissoko are both great pros but we can and absolutely should look to upgrade on them as they are both 400% upgradable.

To me, what says it all is when people say “yeah but put Dier/Sissoko next to someone who can play and we will really see the best of them”. Kind of sums it up for me really. Whereas someone like Ndombele doesn’t need a top player next to him to make him look good.
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First off, fair point on 2016/17 and Dier's position switching around Xmas. Of course, that in itself underscores how important Dier was to what we did as a team, Poch taking full advantage of his versatility, to the point that some Portugese manager decided to tap him up and try and nick him! Needless to say, I continue to disagree with you. Statistically -and to the eye- Dier is a very important player for us IMO. And, it appears, in successive manager's opinions. As for the last line re: NDombele...why would you compare NDombele to Dier for a start? As for "looking good" NDombele has indeed looked good in flashes, but he is currently not quite adjusted to the Prem and costs us when he plays for too long as he simply does not read the game well enough defensively/makes the wrong decisions. Finally, no-one is "mesmerised" by the football that Eric Dier plays (in fact that made me laugh) it is just a case of recognizing what a player does do, not what he doesn't (something Sir Alex Ferguson once told me many years ago when we were discussing certain members of his then-playing staff! Semi-apologies for the clanging slightly clamy name-drop!!!!!!)...
 
Jurgen the German said:
Firstly it’s a very small sample size. Secondly and most importantly, Dier is not THAT effective. You could just as easily say we are winning because Lucas Moura is playing in his preferred position or because Danny Rose isn’t playing.

It’s more likely we are getting better results because Mourinho is keeping things simple, we are not playing out from the back like it’s a religion and we are getting the ball to the forwards with more efficiency I.e. Toby’s long direct passes to Alli. I’d say Alli’s form is the greatest reason why we are getting better results peronsally.
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Again a very fair point, but one which includes Dier as a shuttle-destroyer and fine reader of the cover for our woeful right-hand side which has as much defensive power as a rice paper umbrella in a rainstorm. I agree that Mourinho is keeping it simple, I'd say that is a smart manager who has had no time to work with the players utilizing the best elements of the side which are the front four, and knowing that as fast as we can get it to them is our best bet. I have to say (as a critic of Alderweireld for a while now) he has been the biggest transformation for me. Dele was on his way back to top form, and MoMo saw it, but again, I agree he is a major factor. I still maintain part of that pragmatic simplicity includes Dier.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
well the one change Mou makes straight away was bringing Dier back and our form has changed... just saying that’s factual
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Dier played under Poch too, but in central defence where imo, he should be played rather than central midfield. If our form change was down to Dier, then why was he taken off against Olympiakos with us 2 goals down only for us to perform better when he was replaced? I genuinely do not think he offers any more than Sissoko.

I really like Dier but imo he looks like a centre half playing in midfield. Plus the rush to see one of our players as a leader has led to posters on here being blind to his faults.
 
braineclipse said:
Definitely. Most of our good performances have come with him in our team, and the one really disappointing performance (United) came without him. Certainly doing enough to warrant continued games and time to recover his form.
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What exactly has Dier been bringing to the table? Him apparently being in the side that has performed well in certain games doesn’t indicate anymore than when Spurs couldn’t win a game for however long when Bale was in the team. Or how we had better results for a good period of time with Kane out of the team. Fact is he has been poor for sometime, and if people want to make excuses for goodness knows how long because he is recovering from injury then fine, but to suggest we are a better team when Dier is in it is laughable. If we can apparently easily upgrade on Sissoko we can certainly upgrade on Dier. This thread is beginning to remind me of the Poch one with blind faith no matter how bad performances are....
 
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