ENIC

[RigorMortis]

I'd still not agree with the average label, it's lazy
I'd also not agree on the progress, I've shown you the on pitch progression
I again have to disagree with the Sugar statement, lets be clear, Sugar was the problem, if Spurs had been well run in the early years of the PL, had managed to get regular CL in that timeframe, we would not have had to play 15 years of financial catchup.

Lets get to where we do agree, ENIC has hit a ceiling, the self funded model has maxed itself out, because too many other clubs simply spend money their income doesn't support.

I don't agree on Arsenal, honestly it would have been the same if we had appointed Mason (or Hughton/Parker) post Poch, spent money and got 8th, 8th, 5th (I've said it dozens of times, Spurs fans are bricking the bed with Antonio Conte being 5th half way through a season, can you imagine a Mason delivering 8th two seasons in a row? you think the club saying trust the process, we have a strategy would have worked? I really don't think you/me or any Spurs fan would have accepted that. Btw for context, we haven't been 8th in 13+ years). Arsenal is having a very good season, but it isn't done and even if they do, I'm not sure how you or anyone can realistically say they will be part of the challengers next season, how is this anything more than a Leicester season for them? how will they be better than United (who actually seem to have stumbled on to a plan), City, Chelsea (spending more money than everyone else combined) and Saudi Sportswashing Machine? they have a moment but I don't see how it's anything more than that (and compared to where they were a decade ago, it's actually a disaster, their stadium gamble turned out to be an epic fudgeup).

I don’t agree on Liverpool or Arsenal. Liverpool’s first year in the CL was the year they did the cup treble, Sugar had gone by then, ENIC were in charge. Arse made the CL after their chairman took a punt on Wenger that was five years before ENIC were in charge, yes there was a head start but more down to coherent ownership from the top, making a strategic choice as manager.
It’s not the point of the fans trusting the process, it’s the board having one.
I imagine a lot of arsenal fans wanted arteta out but the club stuck with him. We had a project manager in Poch, we got rid of him…
We don’t know if this is any more than a leiscter season for them, but is envisage not, given Arsenal’s revenue and higher stature. Tbh I would take a leiscter season.

we hit our ceiling because this was ENIC’s ceiling. In my opinion( and it is only my opinion) the risk of pushing for beyond occasional champions league to fill the coffers isn’t a risk worth taking. They are supreme revenue generators and are happy with the football club plodding along alongside the stadium and the other events it hosts.
Saudi Sportswashing Machine haven’t actually gone and spent anywhere near the levels you would expect given there backing of the Saudis, in fact they have been reasonably sensible.
Arsenal’s stadium gamble is an epic fudge up?? Yes it restricted them, but unfortunately they seem to be on the up.

since we hit 2nd, we have finished 3rd, 4th, 6th,7th,4th. Let’s see if we go back on an upward curve again but I doubt it.

 

[RigorMortis]

I'd still not agree with the average label, it's lazy
I'd also not agree on the progress, I've shown you the on pitch progression
I again have to disagree with the Sugar statement, lets be clear, Sugar was the problem, if Spurs had been well run in the early years of the PL, had managed to get regular CL in that timeframe, we would not have had to play 15 years of financial catchup.

Lets get to where we do agree, ENIC has hit a ceiling, the self funded model has maxed itself out, because too many other clubs simply spend money their income doesn't support.

I don't agree on Arsenal, honestly it would have been the same if we had appointed Mason (or Hughton/Parker) post Poch, spent money and got 8th, 8th, 5th (I've said it dozens of times, Spurs fans are bricking the bed with Antonio Conte being 5th half way through a season, can you imagine a Mason delivering 8th two seasons in a row? you think the club saying trust the process, we have a strategy would have worked? I really don't think you/me or any Spurs fan would have accepted that. Btw for context, we haven't been 8th in 13+ years). Arsenal is having a very good season, but it isn't done and even if they do, I'm not sure how you or anyone can realistically say they will be part of the challengers next season, how is this anything more than a Leicester season for them? how will they be better than United (who actually seem to have stumbled on to a plan), City, Chelsea (spending more money than everyone else combined) and Saudi Sportswashing Machine? they have a moment but I don't see how it's anything more than that (and compared to where they were a decade ago, it's actually a disaster, their stadium gamble turned out to be an epic fudgeup).

I actually agree about Sugar. He is the cause of this never ending circle we are in, when the football landscape changed, his belligerence, arrogance and lack of vision set us back perhaps terminally.
However whilst ENIC are an upgrade they are as I said average

 

[iggyfog]

ENIC - there are going to be financial problems for the club however due to our poor performance on the pitch and lack of investment in the squad.

The business plan seems to be geared up to making money from the stadium. This is a combination of match day revenue (apparently 2 million a game + external events (concerts + NFL). The match day revenue however is dependent on the the "product" on the pitch, which isn't great. I have had a season ticket since 2015 (lucked out by getting one at White Heart Lane when we started to challenge), but these days I probably go to around 10 games a year, young family and all that. When Nuno was in charge, it was impossible to get rid of your ticket, couldn't sell it on the exchange, and had to end up giving it away for free. People didn't want to go to games. When conte turned up, became so much easier, as people believed that it was worth attending.

Stadium isn't going to generate revenue if no one is going to games and tickets aren't being sold. No one is going to go if the team is a bit crap. I know people will talk about loyalty, and loyalty will fill up a stadium of 36k, not one at 62k. Season ticket waiting list is pretty much non-existent now as well, everyone seems to be getting offered one.

ENIC need to invest in the product on the pitch, if their ultimate business model is going to be successful.

 

[billyiddo]

We are investing in the product on the pitch

 

[Mikey10]

It's always the same. Comparisons to teams that are right now successful and how their great strategy got them there.

It's rarely if ever comparisons to teams with a good strategy that are yet to see the results.

Levy hasn't consistently gotten it right over these 20 years. There's been plenty of mistakes. But none of these other teams have either. Many of them have had shorter spells of relative success than we've had in the not so distant past.

When they drop off they're no longer the basis for comparison. It's whoever is then looking good, being run well.

I imagine it was the same on Arsenal fan boards a year or two ago. Wasn't it the same on here when we got Pochettino and he struggled a bit at first?

The difference with comparable clubs is that they still win trophies, even when going through 'a drop-off' (see Arsenal's 2020 FA Cup win).

We have lacked the investment to make that final, most important difference - the bit that gets a club across the line. We see it play out once again now with the Porro situation. Conte seems to want him; he seems to want to come; but we are faffing around trying to undercut his valuation, and looking to put together player exchanges as part of the package. Meanwhile, more games tick by.

Imo it's this repeated modus operandi that sees us always just fall short; and ENIC ain't going to change...so, for me, it's time for a change.

 

[billyiddo]

Arsenals deal for Jesus dragged on all last summer, they have been chasing Mudyrk since then and have lost out - United took forever to sign Sancho. We had all our summer business practically wrapped up by the South Korea tour - swings and roundabouts and its not only us who struggle to get some deals over the line.

 

[RigorMortis]

Arsenals deal for Jesus dragged on all last summer, they have been chasing Mudyrk since then and have lost out - United took forever to sign Sancho. We had all our summer business practically wrapped up by the South Korea tour - swings and roundabouts and its not only us who struggle to get some deals over the line.

Seems to happen to us more frequently, albeit I really only care about Spurs…
The thing is our dragging out often means the player doesn’t sign… Dybala, Fernandes,Grealish etc
We also often don’t strengthen in positions where we need strengthening or offer someone that wasn’t the manager’s original choice.

then of course we spend big and then sack the manager within a few months (2013 and 2019)

 

[Raziel]

ENIC - there are going to be financial problems for the club however due to our poor performance on the pitch and lack of investment in the squad.

The business plan seems to be geared up to making money from the stadium. This is a combination of match day revenue (apparently 2 million a game + external events (concerts + NFL). The match day revenue however is dependent on the the "product" on the pitch, which isn't great. I have had a season ticket since 2015 (lucked out by getting one at White Heart Lane when we started to challenge), but these days I probably go to around 10 games a year, young family and all that. When Nuno was in charge, it was impossible to get rid of your ticket, couldn't sell it on the exchange, and had to end up giving it away for free. People didn't want to go to games. When conte turned up, became so much easier, as people believed that it was worth attending.

Stadium isn't going to generate revenue if no one is going to games and tickets aren't being sold. No one is going to go if the team is a bit crap. I know people will talk about loyalty, and loyalty will fill up a stadium of 36k, not one at 62k. Season ticket waiting list is pretty much non-existent now as well, everyone seems to be getting offered one.

ENIC need to invest in the product on the pitch, if their ultimate business model is going to be successful.

Sorry to disappoint you

- ENIC doesn't "care" about in year revenue, because in year profit goes back into the team (in a messed up way, fans should likely care more about in year revenue)
- ENIC makes their money by asset appreciation, something @Finney Is Back has been at pains to explain is happening regardless with clubs
- Chelsea lost >£850M over the RA era, and still financially made sense, and set a precedent that is very favorable for us
- No one going to a game is a drama statement, not a single PL game this season has been under 60K attendance, interestingly we had worse attendance under Jose for sure.

 

[Baleforce]

Sorry to disappoint you

- ENIC doesn't "care" about in year revenue, because in year profit goes back into the team (in a messed up way, fans should likely care more about in year revenue)
- ENIC makes their money by asset appreciation, something @Finney Is Back has been at pains to explain is happening regardless with clubs
- Chelsea lost >£850M over the RA era, and still financially made sense, and set a precedent that is very favorable for us
- No one going to a game is a drama statement, not a single PL game this season has been under 60K attendance, interestingly we had worse attendance under Jose for sure.

there literally no people there sometimes

 

[Baleforce]

The difference with comparable clubs is that they still win trophies, even when going through 'a drop-off' (see Arsenal's 2020 FA Cup win).

We have lacked the investment to make that final, most important difference - the bit that gets a club across the line. We see it play out once again now with the Porro situation. Conte seems to want him; he seems to want to come; but we are faffing around trying to undercut his valuation, and looking to put together player exchanges as part of the package. Meanwhile, more games tick by.

Imo it's this repeated modus operandi that sees us always just fall short; and ENIC ain't going to change...so, for me, it's time for a change.

which comparable clubs (by that I mean not financially or chemically doped), have won the league or the CL in the last 10 years?

 

[billyiddo]

Seems to happen to us more frequently, albeit I really only care about Spurs…
The thing is our dragging out often means the player doesn’t sign… Dybala, Fernandes,Grealish etc
We also often don’t strengthen in positions where we need strengthening or offer someone that wasn’t the manager’s original choice.

then of course we spend big and then sack the manager within a few months (2013 and 2019)

Maybe it does happen to us more frequently but i don't think anyone is keeping tabs of all clubs transfers in order to confirm that - we notice our deals more as Spurs fans.

As i said in the summer just gone we noticeably acted swiftly, so i think if people wanted to be fair then they'd hold off on the criticism so soon after that, not always going to be possible to move quickly, especially in winter windows (yes of course some do happen early in the window)

 

[braineclipse]

The difference with comparable clubs is that they still win trophies, even when going through 'a drop-off' (see Arsenal's 2020 FA Cup win).

We have lacked the investment to make that final, most important difference - the bit that gets a club across the line. We see it play out once again now with the Porro situation. Conte seems to want him; he seems to want to come; but we are faffing around trying to undercut his valuation, and looking to put together player exchanges as part of the package. Meanwhile, more games tick by.

Imo it's this repeated modus operandi that sees us always just fall short; and ENIC ain't going to change...so, for me, it's time for a change.

Trying to get the best possible deal to have more money available for other deals does come with a downside.

But there's a clear downside to not "faffing around" and just paying the valuation too. Spend more money on each deal and you can do fewer deals.

In some cases I'm sure the latter approach would have been better, particularly with the benefit of hindsight. But the overall strategy of trying to get the best possible deal, being willing to wait a bit, I agree with.

 

[Finney Is Back]

how about the size of the repayment installments and how that affects remaining funds for transfers?
chelsea has so much debt - are they ever going to afford to build a new stadium?

Chelsea don't have any debt at all.

 

[Finney Is Back]

@Baleforce

I'm tired of saying it

- We all know that if you want top success in this league, ENIC isn't the answer, you need a cheat code
- The difference remains, I don't need to blame ENIC to justify it, just fudging say the vast majority of fans want a sugar daddy and don't give a fudge where/how the money came about (Chelsea fans still think RA was a great owner)

We probably didn't actually need a cheat code. We could've stayed within FFP limits without doing any cheating via inflated in-house sponsorship deals and spent WAY more on transfers and wages than we did. It probably only would've taken about 10% of ENICs asset gain as a capital injection. Many PL club owners have made capital injections of far higher asset gain percentages than that amount.
RA WAS a great owner for Chelsea, that's why their fans think he was, they were the most successful club in England in the period that he owned the club.

 

[P.D.]

Gil, saar, ndogie, lankshear?

They're all good players but again where's the consistency. Is Gil the type of player who fits the style of play we want or is he just a good youngster who was available - maybe it's both and he can be moulded. Spence is a good example - £12m isn't a lot by today's standards but it's not cheap and Conte says he's a club player and doesn't get a game. Maybe he's just not ready or impressing in training but can't help but feel he just doesn't fit into Conte's plans.

Patrici has now bought a defensive rb (Royal) and an attacing rb (Spence) - so which does he prefer and what suits our style of play? That's where things aren't adding up.

 

[Lilbaz]

They're all good players but again where's the consistency. Is Gil the type of player who fits the style of play we want or is he just a good youngster who was available - maybe it's both and he can be moulded. Spence is a good example - £12m isn't a lot by today's standards but it's not cheap and Conte says he's a club player and doesn't get a game. Maybe he's just not ready or impressing in training but can't help but feel he just doesn't fit into Conte's plans.

Patrici has now bought a defensive rb (Royal) and an attacing rb (Spence) - so which does he prefer and what suits our style of play? That's where things aren't adding up.

We bought a defensive rb for nuno. Spence not playing just means conte doesn't think he's ready. He did the same to eriksen and even loaned out perisic to learn the role he wanted. Both won the league with him.

 

[P.D.]

We bought a defensive rb for nuno. Spence not playing just means conte doesn't think he's ready. He did the same to eriksen and even loaned out perisic to learn the role he wanted. Both won the league with him.

But this is the point, why is Parici not putting in a style of football and getting in players and managers who align with it. Saves all the chop and money wasted like 2 totally different rbs.

 

[Grays_1890]

I didn’t speak about the infrastructure, there is no dispute that the infrastructure is great. However tangible growth on the pitch or a ceiling is my issue.

The bug bear is comparing ENIC to Sugar. Sugar was not a good chairman of the football club. I have said ENIC are average owners not awful ones who have a ceiling that again in my option they are both unable and unwilling to break
.

But you have to compare them because ultimately they took over from a time, when as I have said before we had lurched behind other clubs BADLY. If you can't see where we have come from under Sugar, the work done to close the massive gap and accept that its night and day difference then Im sorry you are churning an agenda.

I can accept people believing Enic have taken us as far as they can but to pretend that we were bit 10x worse off before they arrived with zero prospects hoping for top 10 finishes as a best case scenario, then sorry, I question if you was about then

The progress on and off the pitch which ironically gives people the now idea that we should be competing for the league comes because of Enic...

 

[Grays_1890]

Arsenals deal for Jesus dragged on all last summer, they have been chasing Mudyrk since then and have lost out - United took forever to sign Sancho. We had all our summer business practically wrapped up by the South Korea tour - swings and roundabouts and its not only us who struggle to get some deals over the line.

Chelsea were signing Kounde for a year and never did....This summer we had all our business done before everyone else.....rhetorics....lazy

Maybe we just don't value Porro the same as his club do? Shock

I mean the method I see championed is....sell cheap, buy high, sustain success, people can't see how silly that is but then can't see past the green eyed monster whilst looking over the fence at Chelsea and City, its laughable TBH. Anyone that believes we should be winning league titles need to revaluate their own expectations TBH

 

[Lilbaz]

Chelsea were signing Kounde for a year and never did....This summer we had all our business done before everyone else.....rhetorics....lazy

Maybe we just don't value Porro the same as his club do? Shock

I mean the method I see championed is....sell cheap, buy high, sustain success, people can't see how silly that is but then can't see past the green eyed monster whilst looking over the fence at Chelsea and City, its laughable TBH. Anyone that believes we should be winning league titles need to revaluate their own expectations TBH

It might be the fact the release fee has to be paid in one lump sum.