Dele Alli

[glorygloryeze]

Is anyone saying it is odd?

What i find odd is that despite his skills being so obviously linked to an attacking position he doesn't seem to get any minutes there.

(That goes for the back end of the Poch reign too)

Maybe because he's simply not been playing good enough to dislodge the competition?

Tbf, he hasn't been playing consistently well since maybe February..some might even say since the injury away at Everton caused by Pr!ckford (another one...!)

 

[glorygloryeze]

Why is it after a bad spell so many of our supporters just forget anything good a person ever done for us? Dele was a good attacking player, scored and created goals in a team challenging for the highest honors - he was a better and more rounded attacking player in that period than Moura, Lamela and Bergwijn have ever been and are ever likely to be.

It's about what works for the current team now. And if you are honest, Dele hasn't played consistently well for nearly a year and has shown the same downsides consistently.

The difference now is that there is A) a different team set-up that is not so easy for him to work in B) there is more competition for squad places generally and C) we have a manager who is NOT afraid to drop Alli even if he hasn't got an injury (something Poch didn't do after he dropped him vs Hull in mid-December 2016, which ironically led to the form of his life...)

Football has moved on since 2016/17 or even 2017/18. Look at our defence and midfield for a start: impenetrable back then but fell away and jelly-like afterwards. Like the other players Dele has to regain his level or face the same fate (i.e. being replaced permanently). Unlike many of those other players, time and youth are on his side...

 

[billyiddo]

It's about what works for the current team now. And if you are honest, Dele hasn't played consistently well for nearly a year and has shown the same downsides consistently.

The difference now is that there is A) a different team set-up that is not so easy for him to work in B) there is more competition for squad places generally and C) we have a manager who is NOT afraid to drop Alli even if he hasn't got an injury (something Poch didn't do after he dropped him vs Hull in mid-December 2016, which ironically led to the form of his life...)

Football has moved on since 2016/17 or even 2017/18. Look at our defence and midfield for a start: impenetrable back then but fell away and jelly-like afterwards. Like the other players Dele has to regain his level or face the same fate (i.e. being replaced permanently). Unlike many of those other players, time and youth are on his side...

I feel that my other posts this evening already cover your points here.

 

[StephenH]

Did you think ten same about the West Ham result, i.e. that was more (bad) luck than judgement? Or were you lvid with how we threw away our lead despite playing some very good stuff at times?

Bad luck, their last goal was just football/one of those things!
Annoying but it happens.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I actually think Dele will come good again.

He had plateaued. He needed to go back to fighting to get into the team, and to improve again. At 24 he can. When he started out he was hungry. The last couple of years with a fat contract he's been complacent. He is a made man. It is hard to motivate yourself when you don't have something to prove.

He was never consistent. He is still brilliant in patches. He will still assist and score. But his effectiveness has to go up a level now. He has to lose possession less and make more passes stick. I actually think he will rotate with Le Celco. They are similar in style. Both 24, both creatively brilliant on their day, but with more to come.

 

[StephenH]

He’s not even getting on the bench. How can he stay at Spurs , he would be stupid to.

 

[parklane1]

TBF we went match fit and the whole squad had been away on internationals
We would beat them 9/10 times IMO like for like

I can't dance with you over that, in fact i think Everton got a lot of media flimflam with their start and i do not expect them to continue as a threat to the top four.

 

[glorygloryeze]

He’s not even getting on the bench. How can he stay at Spurs , he would be stupid to.

Out of interest where do you think he should go now to get starts?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Harry, Son and Loris. No brainier
The rest are all much of a muchness and Jose's or whatever call!

I think he meant Dele, as in who should be sign for

 

[Bullet]

He has to lose possession less and make more passes stick

Agreed - the things Dele needs to fix are pretty simple for someone so talented.

People say that Moura/Lamela/Bergwijn have more pace and dribbling ability but they are not truly effective because they try to dribble past 3 men which never works.
So theoretically it is easy for Dele to be as effective as them IF he can see a pass and make a pass, rather than dribble into 3 men.

He is quite fast. I wonder, is he as athletic as 'older' Bale?

Think about Van der Vaart, extremely potent and effective with no pace/fitness at all.

 

[StephenH]

Out of interest where do you think he should go now to get starts?

take 2

Dele should go to whoever meets his criteria.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Agreed - the things Dele needs to fix are pretty simple for someone so talented.

People say that Moura/Lamela/Bergwijn have more pace and dribbling ability but they are not truly effective because they try to dribble past 3 men which never works.
So theoretically it is easy for Dele to be as effective as them IF he can see a pass and make a pass, rather than dribble into 3 men.

He is quite fast. I wonder, is he as athletic as 'older' Bale?

Think about Van der Vaart, extremely potent and effective with no pace/fitness at all.

Dele can’t pass very well
He plays like a street footballer and is very one footed
He is soo good in tight spaces but in open spaces he hasn’t been great. He has improved that side of his game though quite a bit

 

[Raziel]

Why is it after a bad spell so many of our supporters just forget anything good a person ever done for us? Dele was a good attacking player, scored and created goals in a team challenging for the highest honors - he was a better and more rounded attacking player in that period than Moura, Lamela and Bergwijn have ever been and are ever likely to be.

Because Dele's success was -> very good first season, brilliant second season, still good third season, mediocre fourth, mediocre fifth, can't get in side anymore sixth. To your point, this was a "period" of his career, it would be the same as arguing for Lamela as the attacking player that was at Roma (that player doesn't exist anymore). And if I wanted to get a jab in, he was part of the team including Eriksen that when it really fudging mattered (your challenge for honors statement), didn't turn up

This unfortunately is not a unique thing with brilliant young British players, raw talent gets them to top level, then when the need to work even harder, adapt to the changes others make to counter, work on consistency, they fade. Dele needs to be super careful the highlight of his career isn't the player he was at 21.

We covered this in earlier conversation, the only upside Dele has right now over those players you think he is better than is "potential" goals, which he hasn't produced in 3 seasons. He is not a more rounded player, all three of the others probably add more defensively, Lucas/Bergwijn add more pace, Lamela adds more bite/leadership, probably a better passer as well.

You are confusing people not "liking/appreciating" Dele with the fact that most people see we have a very pragmatic manager and from a pragmatic point of view, Dele hasn't earned the right to displace any of those front three and isn't likely to.

I don't see Jose going anywhere soon, and I'm not seeing Dele react in the way that would get him back in side (maybe he will, Ndombele looked gone for a while). Said it a couple of times before, if a PSG came in for him in January and we could use that money for a top level CB or a PEH backup .. I'd take it, and I think most everyone would and could be a good thing for Dele.

 

[billyiddo]

Because Dele's success was -> very good first season, brilliant second season, still good third season, mediocre fourth, mediocre fifth, can't get in side anymore sixth. To your point, this was a "period" of his career, it would be the same as arguing for Lamela as the attacking player that was at Roma (that player doesn't exist anymore). And if I wanted to get a jab in, he was part of the team including Eriksen that when it really fudging mattered (your challenge for honors statement), didn't turn up

This unfortunately is not a unique thing with brilliant young British players, raw talent gets them to top level, then when the need to work even harder, adapt to the changes others make to counter, work on consistency, they fade. Dele needs to be super careful the highlight of his career isn't the player he was at 21.

We covered this in earlier conversation, the only upside Dele has right now over those players you think he is better than is "potential" goals, which he hasn't produced in 3 seasons. He is not a more rounded player, all three of the others probably add more defensively, Lucas/Bergwijn add more pace, Lamela adds more bite/leadership, probably a better passer as well.

You are confusing people not "liking/appreciating" Dele with the fact that most people see we have a very pragmatic manager and from a pragmatic point of view, Dele hasn't earned the right to displace any of those front three and isn't likely to.

I don't see Jose going anywhere soon, and I'm not seeing Dele react in the way that would get him back in side (maybe he will, Ndombele looked gone for a while). Said it a couple of times before, if a PSG came in for him in January and we could use that money for a top level CB or a PEH backup .. I'd take it, and I think most everyone would and could be a good thing for Dele.

To me there's a very clear correlation between Alli playing in advanced positions earlier in his career and doing well and Alli playing deeper later on and not playing well , (although I'd argue Alli done a reasonable job for 1-2 seasons filling in playing deeper whilst adapting to a new role) and i don't think you can really hold it against a player for not mastering a secondary position - only being great as a second striker isn't the worst place to be in as a player (and when he was last consistently played as an AM/SS he was great) The point is i think we should be using him in the position/role that he was clearly performing well in and that i think there is space for that type of player in this squad, playing off of a player like Kane.

Alli as a CM still has a lot of work to do to become an option there, no question.

 

[braineclipse]

To me there's a very clear correlation between Alli playing in advanced positions earlier in his career and doing well and Alli playing deeper later on and not playing well , (although I'd argue Alli done a reasonable job for 1-2 seasons filling in playing deeper whilst adapting to a new role) and i don't think you can really hold it against a player for not mastering a secondary position - only being great as a second striker isn't the worst place to be in as a player (and when he was last consistently played as an AM/SS he was great) The point is i think we should be using him in the position/role that he was clearly performing well in and that i think there is space for that type of player in this squad, playing off of a player like Kane.

Alli as a CM still has a lot of work to do to become an option there, no question.

Quite a few differences between that and taking one of the wide positions don't you think? I don't think I've ever seen Alli play wide.

 

[Bishop]

The Kane/Son dynamic this season has largely been centered on runs in behind?

Listen if you're playing your back up options, which is what I'm suggesting for Alli at this moment then it means compromise in game plan - Moura/Bergwijn are fast dribbly players but neither really work - Alli as an option, who we know can get goals when played in advanced positions is going to be at least as much a goal threat as any other back up (imo much more but proof will be in the pudding)

Personally, as an example, i think if we were going to be without Son for a long run a games then I'd be worried about where his goals are going to be covered, Moura Bergwijn Lamela proven non-goalscorers afaic - whereas Alli, playing in an advanced position, is a proven goal threat... that can't really be disputed and it's only since moving deeper that his form dropped off a cliff.

So if we want an attacking player that actually scores goals then trying Alli there is as good an option as any other

I don't know if I explained myself well. What I meant is wider attackers fall into two categories usually. Those that provide a direct goal threat or those that create chances. To perform those roles you require a particular set of attributes.

For the creator you need vision, technique, awareness,speed of thought and speed of action as you will be anticipating your team mates movements or directing their actions with your play. You will also need to be a good dribbler or someone who can keep the ball when aggressively tackled. Being able to also beat a man is massively useful.

Think Mahrez, Messi, Ribery etc. This type of player is rare as it requires very high level attributes. Dele has some of the qualities, but his passing is just ok, not truly creative and he loses the ball far too much and too easily.

The direct goal scorer again has another set of attributes, most important would be pace, dribbling ability and finishing quality. Again Dele has some of these qualities but he lacks pace, he's not really a dribbler, he can beat a man from a standing start with a trick but can't really beat more than one and the lack of extreme pace means he rarelys actually gets away from the defender. His finishing and eye for goal are obviously of the required standard, but I think we would find him quickly getting frustrated out wide as that player also needs to keep the width as much as they cut in and shoot. Again missing out on Dele's best attributes which i think are late runs behind the play and instinctive finishing touches close to and around the box. Think Son, Old school Bale, Gnabery, Robben Etc.

To me there's a very clear correlation between Alli playing in advanced positions earlier in his career and doing well and Alli playing deeper later on and not playing well , (although I'd argue Alli done a reasonable job for 1-2 seasons filling in playing deeper whilst adapting to a new role) and i don't think you can really hold it against a player for not mastering a secondary position - only being great as a second striker isn't the worst place to be in as a player (and when he was last consistently played as an AM/SS he was great) The point is i think we should be using him in the position/role that he was clearly performing well in and that i think there is space for that type of player in this squad, playing off of a player like Kane.

Alli as a CM still has a lot of work to do to become an option there, no question.

I wouldn't argue that Dele is far better in the advanced role. I was one of those very critical of his constant starts while playing CM (he's mediocre there). The problem is that position and role seemingly no longer exists at Spurs. We are playing 433 where does he play? Out wide and we have the issues I described above. As the point of the 3 and we find he's either too far ahead of the play (like Ndombele on Sunday) or in a more orthodox 3 and he's again playing CM which we know he's not that effective at and stops him being able to use his best attributes.

Now there is an argument to made that he can adapt and become a member of the three but it will be on him to prove his effectiveness while playing that role.

Just stating his goal records from 3 seasons back isn't quite going to cut it as we have a different shape and importantly personnel. As it stands we are playing Hojberg and Sissoko is the deeper two meaning all the creativity and team tempo would be on Dele's shoulders, not a role that really suits him. Recall when he was performing well he had Eriksen directing all the play, Dele on the 3 would be expected to be the provider rather than the finisher.

He's in a very difficult position, he needs a system built around him and his qualities and that's not happening at Spurs anymore.

 

[StephenH]

I'd play Dele up there with/off Kane or Son.
Mourinho likes a big lump up there which is why Dele will move on.

 

[Raziel]

I'd play Dele up there with/off Kane or Son.
Mourinho likes a big lump up there which is why Dele will move on.

Instead of who? (serious question), same to @billyiddo

What does the lineup look like? Kane/Dele up front, where does Son play, are we doing 3 up (if so, you are saying you think Dele is better than Bale)?

Who plays behind them?

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I'd play Dele up there with/off Kane or Son.
Mourinho likes a big lump up there which is why Dele will move on.

Hazard wasn’t a big lump and he played up top with costa, as did Pedro and Willian

 

[Bishop]

Instead of who? (serious question), same to @billyiddo

What does the lineup look like? Kane/Dele up front, where does Son play, are we doing 3 up (if so, you are saying you think Dele is better than Bale)?

Who plays behind them?

The thing Son and Bale have over Dele is they can both create and score their own chances. Dele feeds much more on service. By dropping either of the two the overall team shape changes and I struggle to see how we provide enough for Dele to thrive. [emoji848]