Black Lives Matter

[elltrev]

On the subject of BLM, I'd encourage everyone to take this test relating to race:

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

Just click the link, click 'I wish to proceed', and then click 'Race IAT'.

Speaking as white leftie who definitely doesn't consider myself racist, I took the test and it showed I have a negative association with black people / positive association with white people. And without giving away too much about how the test works, I could feel that bias as I was doing the test. (And again without giving too much away about the test, I've taken it twice with the same results and so know that 'order effects' weren't affecting my results).

It's hard to be sure exactly what my results mean. They might just reflect that society (e.g. media) projects negative associations with black people (compared to white). Or I might have actually internalised some of those associations myself. And they may affect my feelings, opinions and behaviours towards black people more than I realise. I'm not sure. But either way I found the results quite eye-opening, and I'd encourage everyone - especially anyone who feels that the world is too PC or leftie or plays the race card too much - to take the test with a genuinely open mind.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Full bodycam footage from the George Floyd incident now seems to be out there.
I think it's fair to say that it muddies the waters and gives a bit more sad context. It doesn't exonerate the officers nor does it condemn them and show murderous racists in action.
Given the level of charge facing Chauvin, it's harder to see him being found guilty.

 

[scaramanga]

Full bodycam footage from the George Floyd incident now seems to be out there.
I think it's fair to say that it muddies the waters and gives a bit more sad context. It doesn't exonerate the officers nor does it condemn them and show murderous racists in action.
Given the level of charge facing Chauvin, it's harder to see him being found guilty.

Also shows him to be either completely off his tits or have an IQ of around 60.

You can see why they were so cautious in dealing with him.

 

[elltrev]

Also shows him to be either completely off his tits or have an IQ of around 60.

You can see why they were so cautious in dealing with him.

Come on Scara - cautious is one thing, having your knee on his neck for eight minutes (two of which he'd become motionless) is another (regardless of whether or not that contributed to his death). That seems 100% unnecessary and unacceptable to me (though I read that kneeling on the arrestee's neck is part of that police department's legal portfolio of tools when making an arrest - not sure if that's true or not).

I thought the police were pretty reasonable in their treatment of him up until that point though, particularly the one whose bodycam footage I watched (saying he would wind down the window to help with George Floyd's alleged claustrophobia) - which I think might have actually been Chauvin.

Personally I haven't seen enough evidence to suggest that this was racist or murder, but I can't see how Chauvin won't be found guilty of some lesser charge of being responsible for his death.

 

[scaramanga]

Come on Scara - cautious is one thing, having your knee on his neck for eight minutes (two of which he'd become motionless) is another (regardless of whether or not that contributed to his death). That seems 400% unnecessary and unacceptable to me (though I read that kneeling on the arrestee's neck is part of that police department's legal portfolio of tools when making an arrest - not sure if that's true or not).

I thought the police were pretty reasonable in their treatment of him up until that point though, particularly the one whose bodycam footage I watched (saying he would wind down the window to help with George Floyd's alleged claustrophobia) - which I think might have actually been Chauvin.

Personally I haven't seen enough evidence to suggest that this was racist or murder, but I can't see how Chauvin won't be found guilty of some lesser charge of being responsible for his death.

I think it's one of those situations where without the public fuss he could have been (rightly) sacked and that have been the end of it.

Suspect dying whilst under the influence is probably not a particularly newsworthy story. Racist, white policeman intentionally kills a black man is. I'm not sure from what I've seen that there's any substance to the latter as a headline.

 

[elltrev]

I think it's one of those situations where without the public fuss he could have been (rightly) sacked and that have been the end of it.

Suspect dying whilst under the influence is probably not a particularly newsworthy story. Racist, white policeman intentionally kills a black man is. I'm not sure from what I've seen that there's any substance to the latter as a headline.

As I said, I agree I'm not sure there's enough evidence of racism or murder. But I think any man continuing to kneel on the neck of another man who's become unresponsive, for two minutes, deserves more than a sacking. Do you not, and if not why not?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

I think it's one of those situations where without the public fuss he could have been (rightly) sacked and that have been the end of it.

Suspect dying whilst under the influence is probably not a particularly newsworthy story. Racist, white policeman intentionally kills a black man is. I'm not sure from what I've seen that there's any substance to the latter as a headline.

Behave mate. They murdered the poor fella.

 

[scaramanga]

As I said, I agree I'm not sure there's enough evidence of racism or murder. But I think any man continuing to kneel on the neck of another man who's become unresponsive, for two minutes, deserves more than a sacking. Do you not, and if not why not?

I'm not a policeman in a country with a drug and gun epidemic.

If I were, I'd probably tell you that restraining strong, high suspects is an incredibly difficult task and that addicts will often claim all kinds of problems to create even the slightest chance of escape. Furthermore, I'd probably be able to recount a number of occasions where a restrained addict hurt themselves whilst on the floor and that keeping them from slamming their own head against the floor is for their own good.

 

[elltrev]

I'm not a policeman in a country with a drug and gun epidemic.

If I were, I'd probably tell you that restraining strong, high suspects is an incredibly difficult task and that addicts will often claim all kinds of problems to create even the slightest chance of escape. Furthermore, I'd probably be able to recount a number of occasions where a restrained addict hurt themselves whilst on the floor and that keeping them from slamming their own head against the floor is for their own good.

I’ll leave it there - I struggle to believe that you genuinely think that’s the most plausible explanation, as opposed to just negligence or boiled over irritation at an uncooperative suspect.

 

[scaramanga]

I’ll leave it there - I struggle to believe that you genuinely think that’s the most plausible explanation, as opposed to just negligence or boiled over irritation at an uncooperative suspect.

Even if that were the case, I'm not sure I could find too much sympathy for a suspect that doesn't cooperate with police.

 

[thfcsteff]

I'm not a policeman in a country with a drug and gun epidemic.

If I were, I'd probably tell you that restraining strong, high suspects is an incredibly difficult task and that addicts will often claim all kinds of problems to create even the slightest chance of escape. Furthermore, I'd probably be able to recount a number of occasions where a restrained addict hurt themselves whilst on the floor and that keeping them from slamming their own head against the floor is for their own good.

You might also ask why the two officers who arrived on the scene after Floyd was arrested did not drive to where he had been sat down. Why -if he was that much of a handful- drag him back to his feet and walk him across the street? Why make it any more difficult?

 

[thfcsteff]

Even if that were the case, I'm not sure I could find too much sympathy for a suspect that doesn't cooperate with police.

"A" suspect or "this" suspect? How do you feel about protestors who get bundled into vans by covert squads? Would you begrudge them at least a bit of a moan as they are swept up and shoved into unmarked vehicles???

 

[scaramanga]

"A" suspect or "this" suspect? How do you feel about protestors who get bundled into vans by covert squads? Would you begrudge them at least a bit of a moan as they are swept up and shoved into unmarked vehicles???

Personally, I think it's the responsibility of all protesters to ensure that the protest is peaceful.

Once a protest turns violent, there's no way the police can distinguish between them. I have sympathy if that happens to people in entirely peaceful protests with no criminal activity at all. Freedom to protest is not freedom from responsibility.

 

[scaramanga]

You might also ask why the two officers who arrived on the scene after Floyd was arrested did not drive to where he had been sat down. Why -if he was that much of a handful- drag him back to his feet and walk him across the street? Why make it any more difficult?

Once the other officers discovered how much he was resisting it would have been negligent to go back to the car and leave the others undermanned.

 

[thfcsteff]

Once the other officers discovered how much he was resisting it would have been negligent to go back to the car and leave the others undermanned.

My question was why not pull up right where he had been detained/placed on the floor and make the moment he is lifted back up off the street the one where he is transferred immediately to the car, as opposed to bringing him across the street?

 

[thfcsteff]

Personally, I think it's the responsibility of all protesters to ensure that the protest is peaceful.

Once a protest turns violent, there's no way the police can distinguish between them. I have sympathy if that happens to people in entirely peaceful protests with no criminal activity at all. Freedom to protest is not freedom from responsibility.

I believe this is untrue.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

My question was why not pull up right where he had been detained/placed on the floor and make the moment he is lifted back up off the street the one where he is transferred immediately to the car, as opposed to bringing him across the street?

What's your explanation to why they didn't pull up next to him?

 

[scaramanga]

My question was why not pull up right where he had been detained/placed on the floor and make the moment he is lifted back up off the street the one where he is transferred immediately to the car, as opposed to bringing him across the street?

Probably allows them to assess the situation better as they walk across the street.

I doubt they would park in the middle of everything and risk an accomplice shooting them in the back.

 

[thfcsteff]

Probably allows them to assess the situation better as they walk across the street.

I doubt they would park in the middle of everything and risk an accomplice shooting them in the back.

That makes no sense whatsoever. "In the middle of everything"? Scara. They literally ended up parking in a spot which widened the scope of the entire scene. Why? And they would've been given an assessment by the two officers who had initially contained Floyd. If they had not received that, then the entire protocol for the situation was mishandled far before the actual killing itself.

 

[thfcsteff]

What's your explanation to why they didn't pull up next to him?

I have little idea other than to assume the second pair got a rundown from the initial detaining officers who had perhaps passed one word that the situation was very much under control and that the suspect was both complaint and restrained. Perhaps they thought that in that instance, they could return him to the scene of the suspected crime and get close to determining in real time whether the accusation held weight or not. If they had received word that Floyd was displaying potential for unruly behavior and erratic reaction, I would certainly hope that the second vehicle would've got as close to the spot he was detained as possible to mitigate any further escalation which might occur from dragging him across the street and back to the "scene" of the accusation.