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Black Lives Matter

Wilheldiva said:
but at what cost? if the blm movement was the catalyst for these changes, was it even worth it? maybe i'm wrong, but i would like to think that whatever progress that has happened post George Floyd would've happened anyways (and not at a particularly long time scale either)

also i wouldnt be to quick to underplay the influence of previous generations. Racism isn't an issue that is going away overnight - and the actions that previous generations took explains why racism today is less of an issue than it was a decade ago, same with the previous decade etc etc. The speed at which society is becoming more equitable for all is getting ever faster, and fascist movements like blm are only a hindrance to a fairer society for all imo.
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You don't think it's worth it that state departments are actively implementing transferring funds from police departments to relevant fields for non-violent arrests and call-outs, in order to stop people getting shot and killed? Ok then...that's just one example. This would NOT have happened anyway, I'm genuinely amused you think it would have.

I can't really engage with any integrity with someone that describes BLM as a fascist movement, so I won't bother responding to the rest of the post.
 
AuroRaman said:
You don't think it's worth it that state departments are actively implementing transferring funds from police departments to relevant fields for non-violent arrests and call-outs, in order to stop people getting shot and killed? Ok then...that's just one example. This would NOT have happened anyway, I'm genuinely amused you think it would have.
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i think this is one of the negative fallouts from blm. i understand there arguments from all sides, including at a political level- but i think keir starmers comments are telling. those who dont have a hard left political leaning (ie. the majority of the uk and usa, dont believe cutting police funds is a good idea). how often have we been hearing in the news that police are underfunded for years - cutting police budgets will have catastrophic consequences to the communities it is supposed to help imo. if you want an extreme example, look at what is going on im chaz/chop where the police budget is zero. look around the world too in countries/communities where police budget is limited - theres generally far more crime

AuroRaman said:
I can't really engage with any integrity with someone that describes BLM as a fascist movement, so I won't bother responding to the rest of the post.
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thats unfortunate, hopefully you'll see the light sometime in the future
 
Wilheldiva said:
for the most part, everyone knows what is right and wrong. we're never going to be able to address those who chose to be outright racists unfortunately.

the space we can improve in is addressing how unconscious racism affects minority communities. this is done through education, and not via advocating white guilt on today's generation who have done little wrong (unfortunately this is a big part of the blm movement imo).
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Yes, education. Despite the call for years to include relevant and truthful history into the curriculum of various nations, it took recent events to start implementing this. I studied in an American standardised school for two years, I can assure you there is more relevant and truthful historic information about the treatment of Native Americans in Run To The Hills by Iron Maiden than there was in any American schoolbook at that time, and I'm not sure much has changed.

The BLM movement and in fact most racial justice movements are not trying to make the general white population feel guilt (although it is a very convenient stance to take so that one doesn't have to feel uncomfortable). But in all honesty I'm not that arsed to walk people through it that can't grasp that.
 
Wilheldiva said:
i think this is one of the negative fallouts from blm. i understand there arguments from all sides, including at a political level- but i think keir starmers comments are telling. those who dont have a hard left political leaning (ie. the majority of the uk and usa, dont believe cutting police funds is a good idea). how often have we been hearing in the news that police are underfunded for years - cutting police budgets will have catastrophic consequences to the communities it is supposed to help imo. if you want an extreme example, look at what is going on im chaz/chop where the police budget is zero. look around the world too in countries/communities where police budget is limited - theres generally far more crime


thats unfortunate, hopefully you'll see the light sometime in the future
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Cool.
 
Wilheldiva said:
i think this is one of the negative fallouts from blm. i understand there arguments from all sides, including at a political level- but i think keir starmers comments are telling. those who dont have a hard left political leaning (ie. the majority of the uk and usa, dont believe cutting police funds is a good idea). how often have we been hearing in the news that police are underfunded for years - cutting police budgets will have catastrophic consequences to the communities it is supposed to help imo. if you want an extreme example, look at what is going on im chaz/chop where the police budget is zero. look around the world too in countries/communities where police budget is limited - theres generally far more crime


thats unfortunate, hopefully you'll see the light sometime in the future
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Police forces being underfunded is not the same as the call to "defund" the police*. Defunding is about re-allocating some portion of funds away from a local police force and into services that will support the local community, improve relations with the police authorities and over time actually reduce the pressures on the police.

*There have been examples of thi working in the U.S. I am not sure how it would apply over here where we have a different structure however. But putting money into local youth services, community mental health services etc. with the longer term aim of building trust between those communities and the police sounds like a no-brainer. Of course the level of funding needs to be sufficient in the first place, regardless of where it is allocated.
 
Wilheldiva said:
but at what cost? if the blm movement was the catalyst for these changes, was it even worth it? maybe i'm wrong, but i would like to think that whatever progress that has happened post George Floyd would've happened anyways (and not at a particularly long time scale either)

also i wouldnt be to quick to underplay the influence of previous generations. Racism isn't an issue that is going away overnight - and the actions that previous generations took explains why racism today is less of an issue than it was a decade ago, same with the previous decade etc etc. The speed at which society is becoming more equitable for all is getting ever faster, and fascist movements like blm are only a hindrance to a fairer society for all imo.
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Facist movement? Get a grip.
 
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Glenda's Legs said:
Police forces being underfunded is not the same as the call to "defund" the police*. Defunding is about re-allocating some portion of funds away from a local police force and into services that will support the local community, improve relations with the police authorities and over time actually reduce the pressures on the police.

*There have been examples of thi working in the U.S. I am not sure how it would apply over here where we have a different structure however. But putting money into local youth services, community mental health services etc. with the longer term aim of building trust between those communities and the police sounds like a no-brainer. Of course the level of funding needs to be sufficient in the first place, regardless of where it is allocated.
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im sure there's arguments both ways as to whether defunding the police has worked in the areas of the US that you are refering to. my question would be, when has anything that supposedly isnt working well ever improved by reducing funding for it?

we also dont want a "moral hazard" type of scenario whereby we incentivize bad behavior by rewarding it with investments - whilst i agree that this may work in scenarios - this is by no means a long lasting solution that can be applied at large scale.

my other issue with the "defund the police" is that it means a whole bunch of things to everyone who is promoting this message. all the way from literally culling the police, to a reallocation of budget. on face value, the phrase is very aggressive and comes off as absurd. Those that do not literally support the defunding of police should disassociate themselves this message, and promote a more nuanced discussion.
 
AuroRaman said:
You don't think it's worth it that state departments are actively implementing transferring funds from police departments to relevant fields for non-violent arrests and call-outs, in order to stop people getting shot and killed? Ok then...that's just one example. This would NOT have happened anyway, I'm genuinely amused you think it would have.

I can't really engage with any integrity with someone that describes BLM as a fascist movement, so I won't bother responding to the rest of the post.
Click to expand...
Do you have any numbers on how many people were killed from non-violent arrests and call-outs? I genuinely don't know, but I'd be surprised if it's a significant number.

What's the plan when what would have started non-violent becomes violent and there's no police there? Is the cost to the lives of social workers worth the saving? Again, don't know the answer but it's an obvious problem.

Finally, (sorry to bombard with so many questions but you're the first person capable of forming a sentence I've heard support this stuff) why have BLM taken this issue up? Seems a little out of scope to me. After all, the data available in the US are fairly clear that once an arrest becomes violent, black men (I say men because it almost always is) are less likely to be shot than white men. Shouldn't this be an issue taken up by that prick with the message on the back of the Cesna?
 
scaramanga said:
Do you have any numbers on how many people were killed from non-violent arrests and call-outs? I genuinely don't know, but I'd be surprised if it's a significant number.

What's the plan when what would have started non-violent becomes violent and there's no police there? Is the cost to the lives of social workers worth the saving? Again, don't know the answer but it's an obvious problem.

Finally, (sorry to bombard with so many questions but you're the first person capable of forming a sentence I've heard support this stuff) why have BLM taken this issue up? Seems a little out of scope to me. After all, the data available in the US are fairly clear that once an arrest becomes violent, black men (I say men because it almost always is) are less likely to be shot than white men. Shouldn't this be an issue taken up by that prick with the message on the back of the Cesna?
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Appreciate that, I definitely don’t see myself as being very coherent! I’ll get back to you on all of this, it’s not gentlemanly to be spending more time on here than with a new girlfriend. Got to give it at least 2 weeks before she realises where my priorities lie.
 
Interesting reading through the posts, has anyone read this book -
I thought it was a great read looking at how people/culture/society has formed over time.
 
galeforce said:
black lives matter is an idea, a sentiment, a statement

there is no central organisation directing things, I don't know who blacklivesmatteruk are but they are subverting the general message for their own agenda
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Goes back to my point about there being an almost global figure head to spearhead their movement otherwise like being proven there is a loss of clear message and goal.

The worry is that although right in what you say, once you start collecting money or putting administration in place you are an organisation, even if rogue.

We had this argument before on here about what is an organisation and the UK faction seems to be one.
 
Wilheldiva said:
you just try to live your life as best you can - try not to let subconcious racism influence what you do or say, and thats about it. theres nothing more you can do.

the public shaming and silencing of invididuals by the blm movement is abhorrent, and needs to come to an end asap. the vast majority of people arent proactively racist - yes they may make mistakes based on subconcious factors, but that can only be fixed over time through education - society had been on a very good path recently on this front and i worry that the blm movement may have set back the progress. no-one should be punished for crimes committed by previous generations, whether financially or through new positive discrimination measures. its unfortunate that historic behaviours have heavily influenced the current status quo that we live in - but like i said, the only way to resolve this is through having equitable policies across all races, and over time, the issue of historic racism will be erased.
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There is loads more you can do; be more aware for a start as opposed to some shoulder-shrugging, "Well, I do my best so that's that" attitude. Perhaps re-evaluate certain things one does or engages with in life; nothing wrong with that is there?

And who's talking about "punishing others for crimes committed prior"? How about just being aware and accountable for them? What's the issue with that? Since when did greater awareness become "punishment"?

Of course that last bold-face sentence is what everyone is aiming for, but sadly, as has been shown for hundreds of years, people don't DO anything unless there is anger involved...
 
AuroRaman said:
Appreciate that, I definitely don’t see myself as being very coherent! I’ll get back to you on all of this, it’s not gentlemanly to be spending more time on here than with a new girlfriend. Got to give it at least 2 weeks before she realises where my priorities lie.
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Erm HELLO

When did this happen?

I have always liked you so im going to give you a the benefit of my expertise. Lay behind her like your spooning, kiss her neck on one side while you play with her clit. Then gently rub your rooster into her bum. She will cum all over your fingers. Then she will be ready for the custard.
 
thfcsteff said:
There is loads more you can do; be more aware for a start as opposed to some shoulder-shrugging, "Well, I do my best so that's that" attitude. Perhaps re-evaluate certain things one does or engages with in life; nothing wrong with that is there?

And who's talking about "punishing others for crimes committed prior"? How about just being aware and accountable for them? What's the issue with that? Since when did greater awareness become "punishment"?

Of course that last bold-face sentence is what everyone is aiming for, but sadly, as has been shown for hundreds of years, people don't DO anything unless there is anger involved...
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Accountable?
For what exactly?
Yes great injustices have happened in the past and are still happening today, why should we as individuals who neither support nor participate be accountable?
 
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