Black Lives Matter

[thfcsteff]

The latter bit is something I raised before
There isn’t anything that makes it clear he is racist. His previous includes shooting a white guy and also assaulting a lady
Everything is clear (including his previous record) he is a mental ******** who shouldn’t have been given a point of power
The issue though is that the evidence and stats suggest that black people are more significantly picked up and singled out by the police - that’s a fact
There are other facts around deaths etc... that have been highlighted before
I do know of a case here in Bedford where a black guy was brain damaged in police custody and the police were at fault. It has been raised as a racist issue, which it may well have been (I don’t know the facts or evidence) but I do know one of the policemen involved was an Asian man. That doesn’t mean he or anyone else wasn’t being racist of course

I would be interested to see the 9 or so cases against Chauvin that have been redacted. Why were they? Your last sentence I am onboard with.

 

[thfcsteff]

That is exactly it. And from reading some of these posts, it's a bit defensive with "it was years ago, it wasn't my fault, let it go". Sorry, but people clearly do not understand they BENEFIT from the systemic and strucutual racism that was put in place in the past.

For example, history in British schools, we learn Tudors, we learn WW1 and 2. We learn the 'Industrial Revolution' of 1750-1900. But you don't learn about the British Empire much, bit strange no? Isn't it weird the single biggest factor in making the British Empire what it was (effectively funding the industrial revolution), stealing, killing, isn't taught in our schools? Germany teaches the holocaust? It's a requirement, they accepted their past mistakes.

UK nowhere near that. Cannot accept responsibility for past crimes, over 10M deaths in India during the British Raj, incredible no? We discuss the deaths at the hands of Nazi Germany and Idi Amin, but not Britain on other nations?

What about the 1919 Jallinwala Bagh Massacre? Has there EVER been an apology? No, so people wonder why it still gets bought up 100 years later, because governments, specifically the British have never apologised for their atrocities.

People here need to go read up on Operation Legacy - a British programme implemented in the Foreign Office to destroy their crimes against humanity. Far too many people here reading the Daily Mail and celebrating British 'History' without ever having actually read the full story.

Thankfully you have arrived to offer what I think are a superb series of points.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I would be interested to see the 9 or so cases against Chauvin that have been redacted. Why were they? Your last sentence I am onboard with.

those cases are key
The way he acted to me showed a man with massive massive anger and rage and no control
It didn’t obviously show racism, but it could have been
It’s why I’ve said all along the key here is a man appointed to carry out a civilian protection role killed someone and the motive, although important, is less important than the fact he actually did it
I mean if it was him on a white man it would still be ridiculously wrong
They have to understand his motive or agenda and the previous stuff will be key

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Thanks mate, I didn’t notice your usage in the post before, appreciate it. It’s not something I lose sleep over but it’s quite jarring whenever they’re used. I’d prefer not to call individuals out over it as they’re widely used terms but if I can help in some way opening up perspectives then it’s only a positive.

Haha, one thing colour doesn’t discriminate over is people behaving like tacos, I’m with you there!

I think it’s fair to call people out on terms that are offensive for that very reason
It’s an education for that person and others (myself included)
I regularly ask people how to say their names
if their “foreign” as that a very important thing in my mind... it’s a personal identification. Yet I know plenty who happily call people the wrong name which I believe is offensive

 

[thfcsteff]

Responses in bold within quote...

That's not the Minnesota interpretation of the law. I posted the statute above and it clearly shows that this case does not fit the fact pattern required for that charge.

This is what worries me - that by bringing a charge that the prosecutor will know full well can't stick, are they ensuring he walks on purpose?

It is tough to tell. As I think we both agree, this has now become a political football, where it is hard to tell who is looking for what and to what ends. We shall see whose lawyers can best make the case. I continue to believe there are ample grounds for a second degree murder charge. I have to believe they would not level that if they did not have evidence which overrides any videos. If your scenario plays out it is a level of pre-meditated chicanery which would even stagger me.


Again, I posted the statute for you to read through. Simply not stopping a crime is not grounds for Aiding and Abetting. There has to be an action from the defendant that actively aids the commission of a crime. I don't see how this passes that.

And again I have to suggest that such charges would not be leveled without the prosecution being in control of some key facts. Chauvin's partner (who also has previous) will find defence much harder than the two rookies. The prosecution will leverage facts and each cop against each other. If I were a betting man I believe this is engineered to get some sort of "deal" whereby the three turn on Chauvin. That's what the lawyers will work on. This is not a group effort! Again, it has become a chess game.


I certainly think he's violent and dangerous. I've yet to see anything to give me reason to suspect he's racist.

Understood. I believe him to be. We will likely never know unless we do!


.

 

[thfcsteff]

those cases are key
The way he acted to me showed a man with massive massive anger and rage and no control
It didn’t obviously show racism, but it could have been
It’s why I’ve said all along the key here is a man appointed to carry out a civilian protection role killed someone and the motive, although important, is less important than the fact he actually did it
I mean if it was him on a white man it would still be ridiculously wrong
They have to understand his motive or agenda and the previous stuff will be key

I understand your POV and agree that the action above all is heinous.
I believe he is a racist personally, and as for the context, there are simply too many cases like this for coincidence to be the override.

 

[thfcsteff]

BTW, for those who want a better understanding of America's racism, this little film explains it pretty well...

https://www.facebook.com/

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I understand your POV and agree that the action above all is heinous.
I believe he is a racist personally, and as for the context, there are simply too many cases like this for coincidence to be the override.

There are way way too many cases like this
Fortunately most haven’t resulted in people dying so far

 

[Bedfordspurs]

BTW, for those who want a better understanding of America's racism, this little film explains it pretty well...

https://www.facebook.com/

Showed my daughter that earlier
She doesn’t get racism as she is 6 and we don’t bring her up to understand the difference other than people are people and treat everyone as you want to be treated

we discussed her old nursery friend who was a black girl and her best mate... my daughter said yeah she had black hair and mines yellow, that’s the difference she saw
I tried explaining a bit about her friend Ossie whose of what are both Drs but both came from India (first gen)... all my daughter said was their heros as their NHS like mummy
It comes down to what they say - your not born knowing anything and it comes down to your education and what people tell you

 

[LutonSpurs]

slightly confused by your comment on Diane Abbott.

let’s use another example - footballers.
Are black players treated or paid less?

Have you seen how the media treat Sterling compared to other players? The racism is clear for me.

 

[glasgowspur]

As a person of colour, please may I make a suggestion to you.

The phrase ‘playing the race card’ is as offensive and ignorant as ‘I don’t see colour’

I’d appreciate it if we didn’t have these terms thrown around on this board but also appreciate I have no agency over what others write.

Can I ask in the spirit of education what or why you find "I don't see colour" as offensive?
As I've said on here before I treat people how I would like to be treated, if that isn’t reciprocated I will distance myself from them.
In my admittedly small circle of friends of ethnic minority past and present I wouldn't say that I find any real difference between any of us. The colour of our skin is no more important to me than the colour of our hair.
Is that not a good thing?
Do you feel like I would be denying you something?
A heritage, culture or something along those lines?
Apologies in advance for any clumsy wording, absolutely no offence intended.


Honestly, just read @Bedfordspurs post, I didn't write after reading his.
Not trying to take the tinkle.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Can I ask in the spirit of education what or why you find "I don't see colour" as offensive?
As I've said on here before I treat people how I would like to be treated, if that isn’t reciprocated I will distance myself from them.
In my admittedly small circle of friends of ethnic minority past and present I wouldn't say that I find any real difference between any of us. The colour of our skin is no more important to me than the colour of our hair.
Is that not a good thing?
Do you feel like I would be denying you something?
A heritage, culture or something along those lines?
Apologies in advance for any clumsy wording, absolutely no offence intended.

Would you like people to have no identity?

 

[glasgowspur]

Would you like people to have no identity?

That's a difficult one for me.
I'm a mongrel, no history no heritage. No one in my family did anything notable that 100s or 1000s of other people or families haven't done.
I don't see me, my family or my culture as anything special. Truth be told I don't even know what my culture is.
I was raised in a religiously divided family, but the children weren't indoctrinated into it. What I seen turned me off religion for good.
I dont believe in nationalism, or statehood either really. I feel equal parts pride and revulsion at being glaswegian, Scottish and British depending onthe situation and my mood.
Travelling, meeting new people and exploring other peoples culture and lifestyle is important to me and I enjoy it, its just something I can't relate to. I have my own identity, I'm a me, doesn't go any further than that.
Does that seem odd?


Bet you wished you hadn't asked now.

 

[SpurMeUp]

That's a difficult one for me.
I'm a mongrel, no history no heritage. No one in my family did anything notable that 100s or 1000s of other people or families haven't done.
I don't see me, my family or my culture as anything special. Truth be told I don't even know what my culture is.
I was raised in a religiously divided family, but the children weren't indoctrinated into it. What I seen turned me off religion for good.
I dont believe in nationalism, or statehood either really. I feel equal parts pride and revulsion at being glaswegian, Scottish and British depending onthe situation and my mood.
Travelling, meeting new people and exploring other peoples culture and lifestyle is important to me and I enjoy it, its just something I can't relate to. I have my own identity, I'm a me, doesn't go any further than that.
Does that seem odd?


Bet you wished you hadn't asked now.

No Im glad I asked, and a thoughtful answer.

You have an identity, you just explained some of it. You wouldn't want people to deny you that, would you? It would be to deny you who you are.

 

[thfcsteff]

How young are these two countries - USA/Australia compared to the UK....
Needless to say we are far more civilised and that is shown in our integration of
all groups.

I was in Sydney 2000 for the Olympics watching in a bar one evening and a fair amount of the regulars there wouldn’t accept Cathy Freeman as one of their own.
This would never happen here and we are far removed from this.
Tarring the uk with the same brush is wrong.

Black people are not disadvantaged here compared to other countries and I would say a far number play the card unfairly when they would probably need to see what goes on in places like San Francisco(mission).

One thing I have noticed - is the level of hostility between Asian and black people in parts of the uk. Maybe a discussion is needed here.

What goes on in the San Francisco Mission district mate? I am intrigued!

 

[glasgowspur]

No Im glad I asked, and a thoughtful answer.

You have an identity, you just explained some of it. You wouldn't want people to deny you that, would you? It would be to deny you who you are.

True, I just don't see my appearance or any physical characteristics defining me.
I understand that isn’t the same for everyone, and I wouldn't deny someone's right to do that. But on a one to one interaction I wouldn't be looking at someone and defining them by their outward appearance, I would like to get know them, what they see as valuable to them in their background, culture, heritage etc.

 

[Rorschach]

That's a difficult one for me.
I'm a mongrel, no history no heritage. No one in my family did anything notable that 100s or 1000s of other people or families haven't done.
I don't see me, my family or my culture as anything special. Truth be told I don't even know what my culture is.
I was raised in a religiously divided family, but the children weren't indoctrinated into it. What I seen turned me off religion for good.
I dont believe in nationalism, or statehood either really. I feel equal parts pride and revulsion at being glaswegian, Scottish and British depending onthe situation and my mood.
Travelling, meeting new people and exploring other peoples culture and lifestyle is important to me and I enjoy it, its just something I can't relate to. I have my own identity, I'm a me, doesn't go any further than that.
Does that seem odd?


Bet you wished you hadn't asked now.

What a fantastic post.

 

[thfcsteff]

again, that's my point. They are not comparable experiences just because a straight white able bodied man is gay, how the hell does he know what it's like to be disabled? How can he have the thought and insight of a disabled man despite never being one? How can he know what a 30 year old disabled man's life is about because he read a book on it once? He read an online article? Cool, that must sum it right up.

Being Black is not comparable to being Asian.
Being Asian is not comparable to being disabled.
Being disabled is not comparable to being gay.
Being gay is not comparable to being black.

Reminds me of that quote in Good Will Hunting:
Sean McGuire (Robin Williams): "No one could possibly understand the depths of you. But you presume to know everything about me because you saw a painting of mine"

Agreed, but what I hope happens is that everyone who is a victim of prejudice understands that others who are also victims of prejudice are also suffering; don't allow power brokers to further divide and conquer.

To your initial point my father was Iranian. My Mum Irish. Being a mixed race couple in the British late 60s and 70s into the 80s was not easy. My dad took many verbal potshots from "casual racists" and got into a couple of scuffles. Later in life he was harassed out of his job via racist behaviour; it contributed significantly to the swift decline in his mental health which saw his later years not amazing. He had a case to win but could not bear to see
the tossers who mentally abused him again.

Despite all that -despite my family having been racially discriminated against,
I have no idea what it must be like to be black, waking up every day knowing someone somewhere will judge you based on skin colour, possibly meaning you end up in tough spots through other people's ignorance.

 

[SpurMeUp]

True, I just don't see my appearance or any physical characteristics defining me.
I understand that isn’t the same for everyone, and I wouldn't deny someone's right to do that. But on a one to one interaction I wouldn't be looking at someone and defining them by their outward appearance, I would like to get know them, what they see as valuable to them in their background, culture, heritage etc.

I don't think there is a right or wrong approach here. Interesting to explore it. As we can see in this thread, being black doesn't afford people the same level of tabula rasa that maybe white-skinned people enjoy - when we want it. But everyone has a history and identity. How awful would it be to wipe out your history?

At the moment its almost like black people's civil rights have been politely pushed under the carpet for the last decades. And thanks to mobile phones there is a new civil rights awareness which is overdue. I don't think society can stop racism in our life time. Humans classify using simplistic stereotypes, which can easily, even without intent, transpose into prejudice. Is the only way to move forward and enhance rights, is to accept differences, understand histories, not hide from them, or pretend they are not there?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Would you like people to have no identity?

Only if there British.