Ben Davies

[braineclipse]

I think it's clear from Southampton and from the way we have been playing that in Poch's system the full backs are actually wing backs. They aren't just there to support the attacking play. They are there to drive it forward.

Not convinced that's the case.

At Southampton he had Shaw and Clyne, who naturally play that game. He also used Chambers who is a much more conservative right back from what I've seen. Under Poch we signed Ben Davies, but Rose has been preferred. When Walker was out I didn't see a clear cut "this is what we want" in the selection of his various replacements.

I just think it's too simplistic to say that this is what Poch wants or needs at this point in time. And I think other teams that play or have played a similar style successfully have done it with various types of full backs.

 

[Coys300]

As for Walker's replacements, there wasn't really anyone at the club with the right characteristics for his system, he had to make do with what he had. In the end, between the three of Naughton, Vlad and Dier, he did actually seem to prefer the most offensive one in Vlad.

I am not saying that it can never work to have an inverted winger with a conservative full-back behind him, but it certainly is not ideal. Especially not in Poch's system where overlapping full-backs seem so essential to keep the width (since the wingers aren't usually doing that). From what I have seen so far Davies hasn't exactly provided the width required of him. Again, that doesn't necessarily make him a bad player, but for him to work our he needs to get more involved on the offensive side of things. There is a reason Rose is currently ahead of him in the pecking order.

 

[braineclipse]

As for Walker's replacements, there wasn't really anyone at the club with the right characteristics for his system, he had to make do with what he had. In the end, between the three of Naughton, Vlad and Dier, he did actually seem to prefer the most offensive one in Vlad.

I am not saying that it can never work to have an inverted winger with a conservative full-back behind him, but it certainly is not ideal. Especially not in Poch's system where overlapping full-backs seem so essential to keep the width (since the wingers aren't usually doing that). From what I have seen so far Davies hasn't exactly provided the width required of him. Again, that doesn't necessarily make him a bad player, but for him to work our he needs to get more involved on the offensive side of things. There is a reason Rose is currently ahead of him in the pecking order.

And that reason is the relative form of both players.

 

[Coys300]

Form? Not convinced that is the only reason. Rose simply is far more offensive-minded, while still having the energy to get back to defend. Rose to me seems far more suited to how Poch wants to play. Time will tell I guess, but Davies really needs to add some offensive instincts to his game for him to get ahead of Rose.

 

[milo]

Form? Not convinced that is the only reason. Rose simply is far more offensive-minded, while still having the energy to get back to defend. Rose to me seems far more suited to how Poch wants to play. Time will tell I guess, but Davies really needs to add some offensive instincts to his game for him to get ahead of Rose.

I think that form plays a big part. I think that Poch would pick the Davies of this season ahead of the Rose of last.

 

[braineclipse]

Form? Not convinced that is the only reason. Rose simply is far more offensive-minded, while still having the energy to get back to defend. Rose to me seems far more suited to how Poch wants to play. Time will tell I guess, but Davies really needs to add some offensive instincts to his game for him to get ahead of Rose.

Different ways to attack. Davies is probably the most technically gifted full back we have at the club (at the first team level at least). Hasn't been in the best of form, but he was very good for Swansea the season before last and his involvement in their pass and move play was very good from what I remember.

Hasn't been in the best of form this season. Sometimes very good and at one time looked to overtake Rose as our first choice, but then dropped off a bit.

I find it very strange that we should have signed a full back this season that isn't suited to how Poch wants to play.

 

[Coys300]

I find it very strange that we should have signed a full back this season that isn't suited to how Poch wants to play.

We also signed Fazio, he definately isn't suited, yet we signed him regardless.

 

[Maltese Falcon]

I find it very strange that we should have signed a full back this season that isn't suited to how Poch wants to play.

Not the first time it has happened...

My feeling is that it was rather that Siggy wanted to go to Swansea and they had a left back and a goalkeeper they were willing to swap, we had vacancies in both positions and Levy saw decent value for money in that deal. Would not imagine that Poch would have been in a position to put his foot down being just a few weeks in the job. Massive speculation - I admit but...

 

[AdamB]

Not the first time it has happened...

My feeling is that it was rather that Siggy wanted to go to Swansea and they had a left back and a goalkeeper they were willing to swap, we had vacancies in both positions and Levy saw decent value for money in that deal. Would not imagine that Poch would have been in a position to put his foot down being just a few weeks in the job. Massive speculation - I admit but...

I agree with you. Your speculation is supported by the fact that we were linked to Davies well before Poch arrived

I like Davies but Rose is better all round and far better suited to our system. It might be harsh but I would be looking it sign a more like for like understudy to Rose and sell Davies - he'll do well somewhere but he and Poch's Spurs aren't well suited

 

[LCLC]

And that reason is the relative form of both players.

Rose is a much better option for us- don't say it's just down to form. Maybe davies has been brick, but Rose has been good for far longer than this 'little purple patch' his critics begrudgingly accept.

Rose is far more effective going forward, has more energy getting up and down, is a much better athlete, carries the ball better, is more agressive (not always positive) and the stats say he gets beaten less one on one. Is he perfect? No. Is he turning into a very decent PL left back. Yes

 

[LCLC]

As someone whose seen Davies play since his first game for Swansea and for Wales i think some of the comments of his ability and performance are so wide of a mark its laughable. The lad has played only a few years in the premiership and to get a £10 million move in that period means there is something about him . MP has stated that Davies is his type of player and has a future at the club,he brings something different on what Rose does,perhaps a bit more solidity someone who will defend someone who will keep his shape in the back four.

Don't like knocking players but some people have a blinkered view on Rose who i agree has done well over the last few months but sometimes he is liable to blow up.....over the years, getting sent off up in aston villa which you could say cost us the game ....penalties against liverpool both trying to tackle a player on the wrong side.....the goal against the goons in the fa cup where he tried to nutmeg someone on the halfway line when he was the last man........west ham appealing for offside in the six yard box.....his positional sense sometimes is worrying plus his distribution is hit and miss...

Davies isn't as gun-ho as Rose but he is a defender full stop,his tackle on Bony down in Swansea must be the tackle of the season so far.To get some would be journo who can see has only sat next to his computer most of his life and clearly hasn't kicked a ball on a proper pitch in his life and tosses up some stats shouldn't be given so much attention.

Essentially you are building an argument based upon as much bias as some of the posters who seem keen to rubbish davies.

Are you seriously bring up incidents from 3 years ago (sending off against villa) to build an argument? You also bring up goals (West Ham) that you are being super harsh to blame him for.... (Great cross, finish, it was also offside ffs) - your facts about him blowing up aren't really true.....

This other misconception is that he has been playing well only for a few months. gonads. He started last season really well and then got injured. Looked poor and unfit when he returned but toward the end of the season looked very accomplished again. He is a good player who won player of the year at a decent Sunderland team and is far better than Spurs fans care to accept (bringing up 3 year old incident suggests you don't liek him)




Davies has been at fault for several goals and you could bring up the games where he got run ragged by a 32 year old league one winger or some unknown europa league player? Why not talk about his mistakes or the fact a lot of swansea fans say 'good player, but wasn't even the best left back at our club!' Defenders get caught out and all will make mistakes - just seems fans single out singular ones to attack certain players.

Rose defensively has been very solid this year and hai assists and goals (often important ones) means he impacts the game more than nearly any other fullback in the league.

Do I like Davies? Yes. Should he be first choice? No chance. He is a good player and glad we have them both. I am one fan who will give credit where it's due and in this instance I have to really challenge your points as it displays a lot of untruths that seem to make up a large proportion of Spurs fans. It took harry kane to hit bale like form for fans to change opinons and I think the fact Rose has changed a lot of opinons on less dramatic scale,shows how good he has been this season. His Positives far outweigh the negatives

 

[braineclipse]

We also signed Fazio, he definately isn't suited, yet we signed him regardless.

Look at the centre backs Poch used with great success at Southampton. Look at the highest profile one, Lovren. Big, strong, bit slow. Remind you of anyone?

Stating that Fazio isn't suited to our play doesn't make it so. Same with Ben Davies.

 

[Coys300]

Lol, no way is Lovren comparable to Fazio. It might just be me, but we seem to play significantly higher with Dier instead of Fazio.

 

[Armchair Expert]

Quite a critical lot aren't we? I really rate Davies. We are very lucky to have two such capable left backs. I also think Davies lack of attacking abilities is a bit of a myth; he is often in the final, has created chances and provided assists. It just so happens that Rose has upped his game to a level virtually no-one could have anticipated. He was derided at times on here last season (myself included).

Has another premier league team got two such accomplished left backs to choose from? Emirates Marketing Project maybe? Beyond that I can't think of anyone.

 

[harr1984]

Quite a critical lot aren't we? I really rate Davies. We are very lucky to have two such capable left backs. I also think Davies lack of attacking abilities is a bit of a myth; he is often in the final, has created chances and provided assists. It just so happens that Rose has upped his game to a level virtually no-one could have anticipated. He was derided at times on here last season (myself included).

Has another premier league team got two such accomplished left backs to choose from? Emirates Marketing Project maybe? Beyond that I can't think of anyone.

Disagree, I use my own eyes and it has nothing to do with the fact Rose has raised his level that I think that Davies is nowhere near as productive attacking wise.
I like him as a player, but he doesn't burst forward down the flank like Davies and isn't as direct on the ball, he often checks back and slows the play down on that side. That isn't to say I don't rate him, and on a few occasions he has shown he can put in a decent cross but he doesn't provide an attacking outlet on that left hand side anywhere near the frequency that Rose does and that is why he is ahead of Davies in the pecking order for now at least...

 

[Armchair Expert]

Disagree, I use my own eyes and it has nothing to do with the fact Rose has raised his level that I think that Davies is nowhere near as productive attacking wise.
I like him as a player, but he doesn't burst forward down the flank like Davies and isn't as direct on the ball, he often checks back and slows the play down on that side. That isn't to say I don't rate him, and on a few occasions he has shown he can put in a decent cross but he doesn't provide an attacking outlet on that left hand side anywhere near the frequency that Rose does and that is why he is ahead of Davies in the pecking order for now at least...

Ok, I'm not surprised that you use your own eyes to wacth football
However, without wanting to digress the effects of 'collective' or 'social memory' are certainly a very real phenonomen, although I'm willing to afford you the benefit of the doubt in this instance

None the less, that Rose is ahead of Davies in the pecking order due to his better attacking abilities is speculative at best. Perhaps the sentence should be qualified by 'imo': only Pochettino really knows the reasons behind his selections. As fans its fun to offer opinions or to speculate, but thats all it is, speculation.

 

[harr1984]

Ok, I'm not surprised that you use your own eyes to wacth football
However, without wanting to digress the effects of 'collective' or 'social memory' are certainly a very real phenonomen, although I'm willing to afford you the benefit of the doubt in this instance

None the less, that Rose is ahead of Davies in the pecking order due to his better attacking abilities is speculative at best. Perhaps the sentence should be qualified by 'imo': only Pochettino really knows the reasons behind his selections. As fans its fun to offer opinions or to speculate, but thats all it is, speculation.

Ha well I think its pretty widely acknowledged that Davies is the more solid defender, that being said I don't think theres much between them defensively but when Rose is the one venturing forward constantly and occupying the whole left hand side it is easier to look weaker and more exposed. I put it to you then, why do you think Rose is ahead of Davies if not for his energy and attacking threat? Not to mention I think he's solid defensively overall....

 

[Armchair Expert]

Ha well I think its pretty widely acknowledged that Davies is the more solid defender, that being said I don't think theres much between them defensively but when Rose is the one venturing forward constantly and occupying the whole left hand side it is easier to look weaker and more exposed. I put it to you then, why do you think Rose is ahead of Davies if not for his energy and attacking threat? Not to mention I think he's solid defensively overall....

Hmmm, i don't know. A couple of plausible explanations could be: Davies lost Siggurdsson when he made it 3-2 at the Lane; maybe Poch is keen to reward loyalty and service, and Rose is benefitting from being an established player whilst Davies is in a position of having to 'catch up' and establish himself; Davies is in a position of starting behind Rose as he joined the club and Rose was established number 1, and Davies' form in general hasn't warranted him overtaking Rose and becoming number 1; maybe Rose is in last chance saloon, and therefore Poch is playing him in the harder games to see if he has a long term place in the club.

Not saying any of the above are the reasons, just that they are plausible speculations. I don't know why Rose is ahead of Davies, but I rate the latter as slightly superior to the former, so therefore its going to be difficult for me to offer an answer. Certainly Poch is starting Rose in the 'bigger' games; of that there can be little doubt.

I would also challenge as to wether Rose is the one charging forwards; as previously stated I think Davies efforts in this area are overlooked; whilst secondly one could postulate that if the general consensus is correct, that Rose and Davies have differing core skills, they may then operate under different instructions and be seen as the better option in certain conditions.

 

[indianspur]

i think we have two very good left backs. I never rated Rose but he really has improved many areas of his game. Davies has the potential to get better too

 

[LCLC]

Cannot fathom how anyone can rate Davies higher than Rose based on this season. Rose has been creating chances, getting in scoring positions, scoring important goals, assisting team-mates. This is while he has actually looked solid defensively, has put in some great cover for our centre halves and has put in some fantastic tackles and blocks. He is high energy and I would say there hasn't been a full back in the premier league this season to impact a game as much as he does.... 90% of time it is in a positive way.

Your right that Davies looks solid going forward (when he has able to get up with the play) and also generally looks solid defensively. Bar a couple of people, no one is saying he is a bad player who has been brick for us..... however i will say that for the life of me I cannot see how you can prefer him other than if you dont watch us play regularly or were one of the fans that absolutely hated rose going into this season. Statistically and in general viewing, there has been a significant gulf between the two

Poch generally starts Rose in more games and for the most important games because he has been one of our best players this season. No other nitpicking needed.