Ben Davies

[braineclipse]

As someone whose seen Davies play since his first game for Swansea and for Wales i think some of the comments of his ability and performance are so wide of a mark its laughable. The lad has played only a few years in the premiership and to get a £10 million move in that period means there is something about him . MP has stated that Davies is his type of player and has a future at the club,he brings something different on what Rose does,perhaps a bit more solidity someone who will defend someone who will keep his shape in the back four.

Don't like knocking players but some people have a blinkered view on Rose who i agree has done well over the last few months but sometimes he is liable to blow up.....over the years, getting sent off up in aston villa which you could say cost us the game ....penalties against liverpool both trying to tackle a player on the wrong side.....the goal against the goons in the fa cup where he tried to nutmeg someone on the halfway line when he was the last man........west ham appealing for offside in the six yard box.....his positional sense sometimes is worrying plus his distribution is hit and miss...

Davies isn't as gun-ho as Rose but he is a defender full stop,his tackle on Bony down in Swansea must be the tackle of the season so far.To get some would be journo who can see has only sat next to his computer most of his life and clearly hasn't kicked a ball on a proper pitch in his life and tosses up some stats shouldn't be given so much attention.

Agree fully.

And I also think it's a bridge too far to say that Davies isn't the kind of full back Poch wants, or that he isn't a full back that works with an "inverted winger".

Not the same system, but both Modic and Kranjcar came inside from the left very successfully for us with BAE supporting them. Ekotto wasn't really the type to overlap a lot, but rather someone who would arrive into the space created by the wide player moving inside and participate in an overall passing style of play very well. Combination play, some good crosses, good clever movement and solid defending. Something Ben Davies seems very capable of.

Having one full back that gets forward all the time and another that's a bit more conservative is actually not that uncommon. Marcelo and Arbeloa/Carvajal at Real Madrid for example. I also think there's quite a difference between Piszczek and Schmelzer at Dortmund. When Barca were at their very best they fairly often had Abidal at left back and the very attacking Dani Alves at right back. These more conservative full backs have worked well behind "inverted wingers".

(And I know someone will disagree with the individual examples I've chosen for comparison. Not really looking for a discussion on those examples, I think my overall point is solid even if someone disagrees with one of my examples)

 

[Coys300]

A very fair and balanced appraisal. I actually don't think Davies is bad at all. He is probably a more consistent defender, but your analysis is right. Rose suits Poch's needs more, and given that he came from Leeds as a winger before someone converted him to LB, it stands to reason that the shirt is always going to be his rather than Davies' when Poch really wants the job done.

Yes, Poch seems to like playing with overlapping full-backs and inverted wingers, in that scenario Rose is more useful. Personally I think Davies could be brilliant if he had someone like Townsend with his speed in front of him. Davies could release him with his passing, while not having to go on the overlap to much, a bit like the Bale-BAE combination. Unfortunately this isn't really happening with Andros always being on the right. With Chadli it still works alright, since even though he is right-footed, he sticks to the left for the most part, but I really don't like the Eriksen-Davies combination. Christian constantly goes to the middle, requiring Davies to go on the overlap, which he isn't really capable of. Davies seems like a decent player, but we need to play to his strenghts, what works for Rose and Walker doesn't necessarily work out for Davies.

 

[braineclipse]

Yes, Poch seems to like playing with overlapping full-backs and inverted wingers, in that scenario Rose is more useful. Personally I think Davies could be brilliant if he had someone like Townsend with his speed in front of him. Davies could release him with his passing, while not having to go on the overlap to much, a bit like the Bale-BAE combination. Unfortunately this isn't really happening with Andros always being on the right. With Chadli it still works alright, since even though he is right-footed, he sticks to the left for the most part, but I really don't like the Eriksen-Davies combination. Christian constantly goes to the middle, requiring Davies to go on the overlap, which he isn't really capable of. Davies seems like a decent player, but we need to play to his strenghts, what works for Rose and Walker doesn't necessarily work out for Davies.

BAE also worked really well with Krancjar and Modric though, as mentioned above. How does that fit into your description?

 

[Coys300]

BAE also worked really well with Krancjar and Modric though, as mentioned above. How does that fit into your description?

We played differently back then. Sure, we have always been relatively offensive-minded, but the way Poch requires our full-backs to almost be the wingers in hs system is something we haven't seen before, not on those extreme levels at least.

 

[tynesidespur]

Rose is an all-guns blazing, 100mph full back. He makes the odd mistake - they seem to be reducing in number each season but he does offer an attacking threat at the other end.

Oddly enough I actually think Davies is a more intelligent user of the ball. I would always back Davies to find a team-mate if he has overlapped and is in a crossing position - he seems to pick people out in the box - no mean skill! Rose tends to get into that position and will blaze the ball across the box - sometimes effective - sometimes frustrating if there is a guy unmarked on the penalty spot.

Going the other way sometimes Davies positionally is spot-on but when he's slightly off - e.g. if he hasn't played for a few games he can be liable to bad errors. Certainly saw that in a few Europa games early in the season and then in the Sheff Utd 1st leg semi. When he got a run in the league I thought he looked very competent overall. There's no way we'd have scored the winner at Swansea had he not calmly picked out Eriksen in the last minute for example.

Quite happy to have him in the squad and I still wouldn't pick a winner between him and Rose long-term just yet.

 

[sc25]

You don't see any glimpses of a good player in him? Seriously?
The reason it's not the elephant in the room is that no one else is jumping to this conclusion. He's a young player adapting to us, his performances have ranged from very good to rather shoddy. The QPR game was somewhere in between those. You're essentially writing him off already at 21 years old.

I agree with that rationale and I too am happy for Davies to grow and develop.

However, then I ask myself, is it applied consistently to other players? I've noticed some of Davies' biggest supporters do not apply the same rationale to Townsend (for example). Davies is 22 next month, and Townsend is 23, yet you too may have noticed that some have indeed already done what you are arguing against here and have come to a conclusion re. Townsend and even want to get rid this summer.

Their respective situations are not exactly the same (they rarely are with 2 players), but...'Young player, adapting, writing him off already, jumping to a conclusion'...is not applied consistently to two players of a similar age. Again, I agree in principle with what you said and so we are on the same page there, but there surely has to be at least some overlap somewhere with our rationale as its applied to other players.

 

[parklane1]

I agree with that rationale and I too am happy for Davies to grow and develop.

However, then I ask myself, is it applied consistently to other players? I've noticed some of Davies' biggest supporters do not apply the same rationale to Townsend (for example). Davies is 22 next month, and Townsend is 23, yet you too may have noticed that some have indeed already done what you are arguing against here and have come to a conclusion re. Townsend and even want to get rid this summer.

Their respective situations are not exactly the same (they rarely are with 2 players), but...'Young player, adapting, writing him off already, jumping to a conclusion'...is not applied consistently to two players of a similar age. Again, I agree in principle with what you said and so we are on the same page there, but there surely has to be at least some overlap somewhere with our rationale as its applied to other players.

The main difference is that Davies has only played less then 20 games for us, Townsend has played 80. And as you say Davies is 22 next month, however Townsend will be 24 in a couple of months. Hardly a good comparison ( imo).

 

[sc25]

The main difference is that Davies has only played less then 20 games for us, Townsend has played 80. And as you say Davies is 22 next month, however Townsend will be 24 in a couple of months. Hardly a good comparison ( imo).

Can you list some good one's?

One of the reasons Davies hasn't started more games for us (although he started quite a few with Swansea) is because he hasn't been selected and/or hasn't been able to hold down a 1st team place here. Had he been able to, then yes, we would have more to go on, and you presumably (though I'm not convinced) would have more acknowledgment of the comparison. I clearly stated their respective situations are not the same. However, I also said a comparison between 2 players rarely is. Thus, I don't believe 2 players have to be exactly the same age, for example, for there to be any comparisons. And so, 'Young player, adapting, (hopefully) improving/developing, writing him off already, jumping to a conclusion, wanting to get rid...'. I suggested that there may be some overlap in there somewhere. Regardless, I'm looking forward to, and hoping for, the continued development of both.

 

[LCLC]

As someone whose seen Davies play since his first game for Swansea and for Wales i think some of the comments of his ability and performance are so wide of a mark its laughable. The lad has played only a few years in the premiership and to get a £10 million move in that period means there is something about him . MP has stated that Davies is his type of player and has a future at the club,he brings something different on what Rose does,perhaps a bit more solidity someone who will defend someone who will keep his shape in the back four.

Don't like knocking players but some people have a blinkered view on Rose who i agree has done well over the last few months but sometimes he is liable to blow up.....over the years, getting sent off up in aston villa which you could say cost us the game ....penalties against liverpool both trying to tackle a player on the wrong side.....the goal against the goons in the fa cup where he tried to nutmeg someone on the halfway line when he was the last man........west ham appealing for offside in the six yard box.....his positional sense sometimes is worrying plus his distribution is hit and miss...

Davies isn't as gun-ho as Rose but he is a defender full stop,his tackle on Bony down in Swansea must be the tackle of the season so far.To get some would be journo who can see has only sat next to his computer most of his life and clearly hasn't kicked a ball on a proper pitch in his life and tosses up some stats shouldn't be given so much attention.

Hang on

 

[thfcsteff]

Yes, Poch seems to like playing with overlapping full-backs and inverted wingers, in that scenario Rose is more useful. Personally I think Davies could be brilliant if he had someone like Townsend with his speed in front of him. Davies could release him with his passing, while not having to go on the overlap to much, a bit like the Bale-BAE combination. Unfortunately this isn't really happening with Andros always being on the right. With Chadli it still works alright, since even though he is right-footed, he sticks to the left for the most part, but I really don't like the Eriksen-Davies combination. Christian constantly goes to the middle, requiring Davies to go on the overlap, which he isn't really capable of. Davies seems like a decent player, but we need to play to his strenghts, what works for Rose and Walker doesn't necessarily work out for Davies.

Again a really good post. Tough to disagree...

 

[Maltese Falcon]

My opinion of Davies is no secret and TBH I have not been too impressed. I personally don't think he has progressed that much since he signed; he has often been guilty of ball watching and - on too many occasions for my liking - was taken to the cleaners by fast wingers, even Championship level ones such as against Sheffield Utd. I watched the QPR game again and - for all the reassurances that the quoted blog stats were rubbish - Davies actually did not make a single decent tackle, block or defensive header in the whole game and not even once was he in a position to provide a cross into the box, let alone deliver it. The QPR goal came from a cross he failed to cut out from the left, though it would be unfair to pin that on him. However he has been underwhelming at best; I look at Cresswell - a player (unlike Davies) with no previous Premiership experience yet his improvement since moving in the summer has been exceptional and the gulf between them is now grand canyon in size.

As someone said, Poch's game depends on overlapping fullbacks and Davies has not been particularly effective in this respect. To be honest I wonder if the Siggy - Davies/Vorm swap was mooted from well before Poch took over because as Coys300 says, his overlapping is pretty average and this is a major part of Poch's game plan.

I am sure he will still be here after the summer; so it will be interesting to see his position next season. I hope he does improve as I do with every player in the team. Unlike other posters, I don;t have any particular favourites (except Harry obviously) so to me whether it is him or Rose is immaterial; as long as it is the best player for the position. Can Davies become that? I think that is still very, very much in the air, at least from where I stand....

 

[milo]

Say what you like about the Europa League but we get a lot less arguments about whether one ok but not earth shattering player is better than another ok but not earth shattering player when we have a midweek game on.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Creswelll has played really well.... Playing every week

Davies is playing infrequently and is still settling in, in a far more demanding and dynamic team than west ham with higher expectations

He will play plenty of games for us and will not be great in all of them

He suits certain games and Rose others. Rose is currently deservedly number 1. Davies has to push him harder for that role

 

[Maltese Falcon]

Creswelll has played really well.... Playing every week

Davies is playing infrequently and is still settling in, in a far more demanding and dynamic team than west ham with higher expectations

He will play plenty of games for us and will not be great in all of them

He suits certain games and Rose others. Rose is currently deservedly number 1. Davies has to push him harder for that role

This will be my last post on the subject because I don't want anyone to think I have anything personal against the lad. However I don't buy the reason, Let's be honest.... Davies has not played more games for one simple reason - Poch did not think he was good enough to do so - or at least that he was better than Rose.

To say that he has performed worse than Cresswell because he is playing in a more demanding and dynamic team with higher expectations doesn't cut the mustard for me; TBH it sounds like the many excuses people used to put up to justify Soldado's abysmal performances until the Fiorentina gaffe made even his greatest apologists open their eyes. If anything, if Davies has the talent but is being held back for that reason alone, it would indicate a less than optimal mental fortitude.

In any case, we'll see in year's time ...

 

[braineclipse]

I agree with that rationale and I too am happy for Davies to grow and develop.

However, then I ask myself, is it applied consistently to other players? I've noticed some of Davies' biggest supporters do not apply the same rationale to Townsend (for example). Davies is 22 next month, and Townsend is 23, yet you too may have noticed that some have indeed already done what you are arguing against here and have come to a conclusion re. Townsend and even want to get rid this summer.

Their respective situations are not exactly the same (they rarely are with 2 players), but...'Young player, adapting, writing him off already, jumping to a conclusion'...is not applied consistently to two players of a similar age. Again, I agree in principle with what you said and so we are on the same page there, but there surely has to be at least some overlap somewhere with our rationale as its applied to other players.

Sure, and Lamela too.

It's not just about being young and adapting though...

I think I've made my viewpoints on Davies quite clear here. I think he has a lot of strengths that if developed nicely will make him a very good full back for us and a full back that can fit in perfectly well under Poch. In short I see potential for future development I suppose. The poster I quoted obviously didn't see that, which was the basis for my disagreement.

 

[milo]

This will be my last post on the subject because I don't want anyone to think I have anything personal against the lad. However I don't buy the reason, Let's be honest.... Davies has not played more games for one simple reason - Poch did not think he was good enough to do so - or at least that he was better than Rose.

To say that he has performed worse than Cresswell because he is playing in a more demanding and dynamic team with higher expectations doesn't cut the mustard for me; TBH it sounds like the many excuses people used to put up to justify Soldado's abysmal performances until the Fiorentina gaffe made even his greatest apologists open their eyes. If anything, if Davies has the talent but is being held back for that reason alone, it would indicate a less than optimal mental fortitude.

In any case, we'll see in year's time ...

I think that Davies would have got plenty more games if Rose had continued his form from last season. The fact that Rose has responded positively to the competition for places must be a massive plus for us and who is to say that the pendulum will not swing the other way next season?

The stuff about Soldado apologists is uncalled for, unconstructive and unwelcome.

 

[braineclipse]

This will be my last post on the subject because I don't want anyone to think I have anything personal against the lad. However I don't buy the reason, Let's be honest.... Davies has not played more games for one simple reason - Poch did not think he was good enough to do so - or at least that he was better than Rose.

To say that he has performed worse than Cresswell because he is playing in a more demanding and dynamic team with higher expectations doesn't cut the mustard for me; TBH it sounds like the many excuses people used to put up to justify Soldado's abysmal performances until the Fiorentina gaffe made even his greatest apologists open their eyes. If anything, if Davies has the talent but is being held back for that reason alone, it would indicate a less than optimal mental fortitude.

In any case, we'll see in year's time ...

Is there any type of context that can be mentioned without people calling it just excuses if Sam Allardyce style football compared to Pochettino's style isn't a relevant context when considering the performance of a full back?

 

[Maltese Falcon]

The stuff about Soldado apologists is uncalled for, unconstructive and unwelcome.

The Webster dictionary definition of an apologist is: a person who defends or supports something (or someone) that is being criticized or attacked by other people. Can I invite you to go through the Soldado thread and tell me that there were no posters who constantly "defended or supported" the Spaniard when he was being criticised for his constant misses and poor play; those posts came to an abrupt halt after his Fiorentina gaffe. So why was it uncalled for? I was in no way being derogatory - simply using the correct vernacular.

Is it ok for someone to label those who do not share his "opinions" on Townsend as blinkered but not for another person to term those who defended Soldado, in the face of all logic, as apologists?

If it is, then my apologies...

 

[braineclipse]

We played differently back then. Sure, we have always been relatively offensive-minded, but the way Poch requires our full-backs to almost be the wingers in hs system is something we haven't seen before, not on those extreme levels at least.

Sure, like I already agreed with the system was different. But it still wasn't the case that we played without width on the left, or that Modric and Krancjar were naturally suited to providing width down the left.

As I said and expanded on in one of my previous posts there are several ways to have full backs provide width. It's just not true that you must have an overlapping full backs for "inverted wingers" or Poch's system to work.

 

[Bobby]

Sure, like I already agreed with the system was different. But it still wasn't the case that we played without width on the left, or that Modric and Krancjar were naturally suited to providing width down the left.

As I said and expanded on in one of my previous posts there are several ways to have full backs provide width. It's just not true that you must have an overlapping full backs for "inverted wingers" or Poch's system to work.

I think it's clear from Southampton and from the way we have been playing that in Poch's system the full backs are actually wing backs. They aren't just there to support the attacking play. They are there to drive it forward.