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Ben Davies
- Thread starter Denmark Spur
- Start date
Lemonade Money
Les Medley
Rossi22
Pedro Mendes
You can look at it that way or you can say that with Eriksen on the left and a defensive full back behind him then we're going to carry very little threat down that side. With the new "craze" of 4231 and similar formations, there's more emphasis on attacking full backs, as the attacking players generally all want to move centrally rather than staying out wide like a 90s winger. The most commonly used tactic now is wide player moves inside, full back overlaps, dm/cm covers - that's generally what we were doing last season but Tim decided to skip the last part and just put attacking midfielders in there instead
I didn't really add in what I thought of Davies in my summarising of Danny Rose's faults. I really like Davies as a LB, he has a good engine on him and gets up and down and just seems to me to be an honest pro that will fit into the set up without needing to be mothered or pampered through. At 21 he has time to progress being alongside better players and I have every hope that he will. I didn't see as much of him last season as I did in 2012/13 but that season he really impressed me.
£8.5m with add ons for Wales Appearances and Trophies won with Spurs would be the way to go imo.
£8.5m with add ons for Wales Appearances and Trophies won with Spurs would be the way to go imo.
You can look at it that way or you can say that with Eriksen on the left and a defensive full back behind him then we're going to carry very little threat down that side. With the new "craze" of 4231 and similar formations, there's more emphasis on attacking full backs, as the attacking players generally all want to move centrally rather than staying out wide like a 90s winger. The most commonly used tactic now is wide player moves inside, full back overlaps, dm/cm covers - that's generally what we were doing last season but Tim decided to skip the last part and just put attacking midfielders in there instead
That is very true Rossi, but then Id suggest Rose has better potential in that role as he provides width and an attacking outlet down that side quite well - he just needs to improve (understatement) on his final ball...
Dont think any clubs will fall for that clause!
And needs to learn how to defend!!!
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
I'm not sure, I agree he's not an overly attacking full back, but he is very comfortable on the ball, gets forward quite a bit and has a good cross on him.
You can look at it that way or you can say that with Eriksen on the left and a defensive full back behind him then we're going to carry very little threat down that side. With the new "craze" of 4231 and similar formations, there's more emphasis on attacking full backs, as the attacking players generally all want to move centrally rather than staying out wide like a 90s winger. The most commonly used tactic now is wide player moves inside, full back overlaps, dm/cm covers - that's generally what we were doing last season but Tim decided to skip the last part and just put attacking midfielders in there instead
I agree about attacking full backs being more important when not playing traditional wingers (rather obviously).
Are you saying that Ben Davies is a defensive full back, or just speaking about in theory?
I agree in theory, for example with the current Germany side they have little to no width down the left hand side (without Podolski at least) as their left back is a "right footed centre back" (rough generalization). With a left back like that and someone like Eriksen starting wide left we wouldn't get much width or attacking threat.
I'm not sure we need a full back like Glenn Johnson either to take it to the opposite extreme, someone who gets forward a lot and essentially gets past his wide player often and often fairly early in attacks.
Not sure about the rest of you, butt for me Ben Davies falls somewhere in between those two. Perhaps (optimistically) comparable to Gary Neville who wasn't particularly eager to get past his wide man, but who got forward well and had a good cross on him when he did get into a crossing position.
That for me is the problem with Danny Rose, although I think some of what has been said him in this thread is over the top he doesn't seem to do particularly well in either aspect of the game. Going forward his ball control and passing is no better than adequate at best imo and his crossing is worse than that. Add to this some at times really poor defending and he has to make massive steps to become a properly good left back. At least if one of those aspects was fine (like Walker with his defending) I would be more optimistic about him as our first choice.
I
indianspur
Guest
Who was the least dribbled past and what's the average for all defenders?
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
I'm sure Rose was the least dribbled past, because he was never anywhere near the right position to try and make the challenge in the first place.
Either that or he'd stop the dribble with a stupid foul on the edge of our box
Rose really did frustrate me last season. I felt he was one of several who was always seconds away from making an error which would lead to a goal. On the whole his crossing was abysmal, but he showed a willingness to get forward. Perhaps he needed a decent coach. Let's see what Poch can do with this squad
Finney Is Back
Andy Thompson
Wow.... You have just named two of the best full backs I have seen in the premier league there. I would say that both were extremely special full backs.
Rossi22
Pedro Mendes
For full backs:
Least: Guy Demel - 5 in 32 appearances
Most: Ben Davies - 54 in 34 appearances
Walker - 26 in 26
Naughton - 20 in 22
Rose - 18 in 22
Not sure about average. In fact, Rose comes out on top of Davies in just about every defensive stat going, the only one he lags behind in is errors, so if he could cut them out ...
Don't like the results so stats mean nothing etc etc. One more thing, other than the dribbled past stat, Walker does very well in most departments compared to the rest of the league.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
Rossi: Are you accusing anyone in particular of dismissing the stats because they don't like the results or is it just some throwaway comment aimed at everyone and no one?
Rossi22
Pedro Mendes
You only have to read through the thread to see that stats are only worthwhile when the results are the desired outcome.
I
indianspur
Guest
Thanks for the response. Hmmm, there must be reasons why Spurs are willing to spend up to 10 mill on Davies. Stats wise he may not be a significant upgrade on Rose but I'm sure the club/Poch have all these stats at hand so they must see some things about Davies that they feel they can improve or will fit in with how they want the team to playFor full backs:
Least: Guy Demel - 5 in 32 appearances
Most: Ben Davies - 54 in 34 appearances
Walker - 26 in 26
Naughton - 20 in 22
Rose - 18 in 22
Not sure about average. In fact, Rose comes out on top of Davies in just about every defensive stat going, the only one he lags behind in is errors, so if he could cut them out ...
Don't like the results so stats mean nothing etc etc. One more thing, other than the dribbled past stat, Walker does very well in most departments compared to the rest of the league.
braineclipse
Steve Sedgley
I don't know about averages, but looking at whoscored.com, sorting by dribbled past and scrolling down looking for full backs some of the results are:
-Flanagan - 1.7
-Ben Davies - 1.6
-Erik Pieters - 1.3
-Angel Rangel - 1.2
-Pablo Zabaleta - 1.1
-Kyle Walker - 1
-César Azpilicueta - 1
-Davide Santon 0.9
-Patrice Evra - 0.9
-Kyle Naughton - 0.9
-Gaël Clichy - 0.9
-Rafael - 0.8
-Danny Rose - 0.8
-Dean Moxey - 0.8
-Kieran Gibbs - 0.7
-John Arne Riise 0.7
-Luke Shaw - 0.6
-Leighton Baines - 0.6
-Seamus Coleman - 0.5
-Phil Bardsley - 0.5
-Billy Jones - 0.4
-George McCartney - 0.4
-Guy Demel - 0.2
That's per appearance, so I only included players with a lot more starts than sub appearances to avoid getting skewed numbers. Didn't include all full backs, but didn't purposefully leave anyone out. I avoided players that regularly play other positions too.
It's noteworthy that Ben Davies is so close to the top of that list, but at the same time it's worth noting that he's only 0.5 above a player like Zabaleta and 0.6 above Walker and Azpilicueta - 3 full backs that I think most here rate very highly defensively.
Obviously for any one player having a lower number would be better, if all other things are equal. But I don't think you can say that having a lower number makes you a better player. Unsurprising perhaps that Fat Sam managed full backs like Demel and McCartney are at the bottom of that list considering how well drilled they are defensively, how far back they usually sit and how much protection Allardyce asks his wide midfielders to give his full backs. The other regular Swansea full back Angel Rangel is also relatively high up that list at 1.2. I will repeat until the cows come home that this is about context and not looking at stats in isolation.
Going with the assumption that the context of the team surrounding the player is important I checked out Davies' stats from last season, where he scored 0.9 (per game, 33 starts, 4 sub appearances). No doubt that was a season when Swansea functioned better as a team, not a season where they struggled and sacked their manager. Now, it might be that Ben Davies was exposed more in his second season or it might be that he was found out to some extent by opposing wingers or there might be some other explanation for this, I honestly wouldn't know. But I think this illustrates the problem of just looking at a stat like this in isolation comparing two different players at different teams and trying to draw conclusions about ability.
Looking at our two full backs they're very close in numbers, but I rate Walker a lot higher (one on one?) defensively than Rose, yet Rose has a lower number. I think this can be at least partly explained by the playing style of each of them. Walker rather often gets very close to his winger, almost dares him to take him on and very often comes out ahead (imo). Comparably Rose stands off his man more, will fall back and perhaps not get dribbled, but also won't win the ball. So in addition to style of play of each team influencing these stats I think style of play of the individual full back makes a big difference. At least for some a style of play that means getting dribbled past a bit more frequently might be the better option overall. Who does Ben Davies play more like, I'm not sure myself?
I don't think stats like these in isolation is anywhere near a good indication of the actual quality of the player. I have to say that whenever I've seen Ben Davies he's seemed solid enough and hasn't seemed like the kind of liability a 1.6 number here might at first seem to indicate. But I did also watch him more last season and less this season when most reports have indicated that he hasn't been as good.
