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Ballon d'Or

StephenH said:
Go wash your mouth out!

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You're probably right..... BUT I'm a huge Messi fangrandad!
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I know I should be a bigger fan of Messi given his ability is more GHod given than physical but it grates me a little the the hasn’t tested himself in another league. Can he do it on a rainy night etc etc
I’m still bitter he missed a pen again cheatski the year they won CL too!
 
StephenH said:
Dread to think what his Barca salary is. @MKSpur
Obscene will suffice!
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I think it’s half a mill a week, although not sure if that includes the tax he doesn’t pay or not.

Whenever he decides to call it a day you get the feeling he could rock up in the MLS at 45 and still tinkle it, Bradley Wright Phillips is like Shearer in that league!
 
MKSpur said:
I know I should be a bigger fan of Messi given his ability is more GHod given than physical but it grates me a little the the hasn’t tested himself in another league. Can he do it on a rainy night etc etc
I’m still bitter he missed a pen again cheatski the year they won CL too!
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Don’t think it’s any slight on him. I watch a lot of Spanish football and a farmers league it’s not. French and Dutch leagues are farmers leagues.
I would say Spanish football is comparable in terms of strength and depth to the prem.

Yes VVD was great last year and great defenders don’t get the plaudits they should.
 
djp82 said:
Don’t think it’s any slight on him. I watch a lot of Spanish football and a farmers league it’s not. French and Dutch leagues are farmers leagues.
I would say Spanish football is comparable in terms of strength and depth to the prem.

Yes VVD was great last year and great defenders don’t get the plaudits they should.
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I don’t disagree the French and Dutch leagues are a lower standard than Spain but my point was more about testing oneself in a different environment. I quite like the way Zlatan has picked up league titles everywhere and gave a good account of himself in his twilight years here and Ronaldo has now played 3 of the top leagues and been successful.
 
MKSpur said:
I know I should be a bigger fan of Messi given his ability is more GHod given than physical but it grates me a little the the hasn’t tested himself in another league. Can he do it on a rainy night etc etc
I’m still bitter he missed a pen again cheatski the year they won CL too!
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A rainy night, or come to think about it, any night or day with the national team.

Ronaldo may be a clam, but he has taken his national team to places their golden generation couldn't.
 
MKSpur said:
I don’t disagree the French and Dutch leagues are a lower standard than Spain but my point was more about testing oneself in a different environment. I quite like the way Zlatan has picked up league titles everywhere and gave a good account of himself in his twilight years here and Ronaldo has now played 3 of the top leagues and been successful.
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Yea very true. would have been nice to see him do it in the Prem every week. I think it would not be to much different. Barca struggle when he’s not fit.
 
djp82 said:
Don’t think it’s any slight on him. I watch a lot of Spanish football and a farmers league it’s not. French and Dutch leagues are farmers leagues.
I would say Spanish football is comparable in terms of strength and depth to the prem.

Yes VVD was great last year and great defenders don’t get the plaudits they should.
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I live in Spain mate and I do not agree, La Liga is better than it used to be but there are still a fair amount of no contest games and ref calls that seem amazingly biased (how Barca had 11 men on the field at the end of that last game with Aletico is beyond me).

Re the award itself, it's a bit flimflam now, as others have said most years it seems its a golden boot and by default the award goes to Messi

I don't understand it, is Messi a brilliant, once in a generation talent with an amazingly goal scoring record? = absolutely
Has Messi done anything for Barca or Argentina results wise that they wouldn't have or historically have done without him (Barca winning La Liga for the 26th time is like saying a player made a difference for Celtic)? = not really, in the last 7 years (Messi's prime) Barca has one CL. For country it's clear Ronaldo, Bale and Modric have done more for their national teams.

The fanboys will go crazy but if it's a golden boot award, great, give it to him. But again, players like VVD probably way more impact on their team (and I hate the victims)
 
Raziel said:
I live in Spain mate and I do not agree, La Liga is better than it used to be but there are still a fair amount of no contest games and ref calls that seem amazingly biased (how Barca had 11 men on the field at the end of that last game with Aletico is beyond me).

Re the award itself, it's a bit flimflam now, as others have said most years it seems its a golden boot and by default the award goes to Messi

I don't understand it, is Messi a brilliant, once in a generation talent with an amazingly goal scoring record? = absolutely
Has Messi done anything for Barca or Argentina results wise that they wouldn't have or historically have done without him (Barca winning La Liga for the 26th time is like saying a player made a difference for Celtic)? = not really, in the last 7 years (Messi's prime) Barca has one CL. For country it's clear Ronaldo, Bale and Modric have done more for their national teams.

The fanboys will go crazy but if it's a golden boot award, great, give it to him. But again, players like VVD probably way more impact on their team (and I hate the victims)
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Messi is a once in a generation talent, for me anyway. We are lucky to have seen two with Ronaldo as well in their prime.

Agree about the reffing is Spain it’s bloody awful. Whilst La Liga is not quite there it’s not a million miles off like France and Holland.

I think Barca do struggle when he’s not playing. Start of the season will attest to that. But all opinions I suppose. Just appreciate the talent he has.

Defenders as in VVD etc never get a fair shout at the top awards. It’s a thankless task really. That’s the same at most levels of football.

And I did post prior would have been good to see him play in another league as we could see where he’s at.
 
Raziel said:
I live in Spain mate and I do not agree, La Liga is better than it used to be but there are still a fair amount of no contest games and ref calls that seem amazingly biased (how Barca had 11 men on the field at the end of that last game with Aletico is beyond me).

Re the award itself, it's a bit flimflam now, as others have said most years it seems its a golden boot and by default the award goes to Messi

I don't understand it, is Messi a brilliant, once in a generation talent with an amazingly goal scoring record? = absolutely
Has Messi done anything for Barca or Argentina results wise that they wouldn't have or historically have done without him (Barca winning La Liga for the 26th time is like saying a player made a difference for Celtic)? = not really, in the last 7 years (Messi's prime) Barca has one CL. For country it's clear Ronaldo, Bale and Modric have done more for their national teams.

The fanboys will go crazy but if it's a golden boot award, great, give it to him. But again, players like VVD probably way more impact on their team (and I hate the victims)
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I'm obviously biased, if it was up to be he would have gotten it every year for over a decade now. For me he does the amazing things with a regularity that puts him in his own class of special. It's hard to say that he, or anyone else in the game, does things no-one else can do as there are a lot of great players around. The difference is they will do what Messi does most games once in a while, they will do with some regularity what he does all the time.

I disagree on Barcelona. I don't think they would have done as well without him at all. Other world class players have been there playing next to him and the difference has been clear to see. I might be stretching things a touch, but I don't think other great Barca players of the last 10-15 years would have been as highly rated as they are if Messi hadn't been there because the team overall wouldn't have been as good or as successful.

He's pure magic.

Again, biased, obviously.
 
braineclipse said:
I'm obviously biased, if it was up to be he would have gotten it every year for over a decade now. For me he does the amazing things with a regularity that puts him in his own class of special. It's hard to say that he, or anyone else in the game, does things no-one else can do as there are a lot of great players around. The difference is they will do what Messi does most games once in a while, they will do with some regularity what he does all the time.

I disagree on Barcelona. I don't think they would have done as well without him at all. Other world class players have been there playing next to him and the difference has been clear to see. I might be stretching things a touch, but I don't think other great Barca players of the last 10-15 years would have been as highly rated as they are if Messi hadn't been there because the team overall wouldn't have been as good or as successful.

He's pure magic.

Again, biased, obviously.
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Mate, no disagreement that he is an amazing player, I just think there is a flaw to his ability as a teammate that people ignore

- I disliked Maradona, but as a comparison, seemingly he dragged his teams a lot further than Messi has
- His inability to lift the Argentine national team and only managing to get Barca over the line in CL once in last 7 years is not a good reflection on him (both of those sides have amazing lineups)

And again, even if you give him most of the credit for Barca's domestic success, another La Liga or Copa del Ray is not really that much of a stretch (again, it's equivalent of Celtic or Rangers adding to their domestic trophies)
 
jts1882 said:
When did Xavi retire?
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I think as big a miss for Barcelona is when Puyol retired, as they’ve had a habit of shipping goals in the away legs of CL knockout rounds in recent years... 0-4 at Anfield last season, 0-3 at Roma in 2018, 0-3 at Juventus in 2017...
 
Raziel said:
Mate, no disagreement that he is an amazing player, I just think there is a flaw to his ability as a teammate that people ignore

- I disliked Maradona, but as a comparison, seemingly he dragged his teams a lot further than Messi has
- His inability to lift the Argentine national team and only managing to get Barca over the line in CL once in last 7 years is not a good reflection on him (both of those sides have amazing lineups)

And again, even if you give him most of the credit for Barca's domestic success, another La Liga or Copa del Ray is not really that much of a stretch (again, it's equivalent of Celtic or Rangers adding to their domestic trophies)
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I think the nature of the CL and WC is that luck and coincidences play a bigger part than people think.

The narrative that Maradona dragged Argentina to the World Cup win almost on his own is a compelling, fun story. It's easy to think in hindsight that this was the only possible outcome with a player of his greatness. I just don't think that's the case. They had a probability of winning, made significantly higher by his awsomeness, and they won. But he could have been just as good and Argentina could have come up short.

Argentina have some amazing players, and some bang average players. It hasn't been what I would describe as an amazing line-up in a very long time imo.

1 CL win in 7 isn't impressive for Barca, but how many close marginal situations (not even including Messi) would have had to go differently for that number to be 2 or 3?

For me that number is low enough that I don't think the number of CL wins is a good measure if the quality of an individual player.
 
braineclipse said:
I think the nature of the CL and WC is that luck and coincidences play a bigger part than people think.

The narrative that Maradona dragged Argentina to the World Cup win almost on his own is a compelling, fun story. It's easy to think in hindsight that this was the only possible outcome with a player of his greatness. I just don't think that's the case. They had a probability of winning, made significantly higher by his awsomeness, and they won. But he could have been just as good and Argentina could have come up short.

Argentina have some amazing players, and some bang average players. It hasn't been what I would describe as an amazing line-up in a very long time imo.

1 CL win in 7 isn't impressive for Barca, but how many close marginal situations (not even including Messi) would have had to go differently for that number to be 2 or 3?

For me that number is low enough that I don't think the number of CL wins is a good measure if the quality of an individual player.
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I think the other reason Maradona Gets held in the regard he does was the impact he had on Napoli. It’s not Messi’s fault that he plays for one of the biggest sides in the world but I would have moved to see him in a team who didn’t enter almost every match they play as favourites. It will always be a debate to divide him and Ronaldo but Ronaldo has at least played in different leagues.
It may be a similar situation to compare Fraudiola and Mourinho. If Mourinho can take us to a trophy then I’d say that rates as more of an achievement than the domestic titles City have picked up with their massive financial advantage or Bayern Munich in a league where the best players from the team in 2nd still join them. I guess it’s been a long time since a manager or player has purposely gone to a weaker club than they have had offers from just to prove they can perform with less resources though?
I also think if Mourinho does take us to a trophy he won’t let anyone forget how long it’s been and what our wage budget is compared to the teams we beat to it!! If he wins the league or CL his next press conference would just be a mike drop!!
 
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