AVB versus Martinez

[africanspurs]

AS Kingw as horrendous against Norwich....BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD..not just bad bad.

okay...everyone is allowed like 2 or 3 games once they reach their respective retirement age...

come on. the man had shots at half time to play through the pain...for SPURS DAMMIT!!!!

Long Live the King. Amazing footballer...world class without getting the stage...such a tragedy

 

[billyiddo]

Don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that if Everton finish above us this season then AVB gets a free pass despite having greater resources at his disposal?

i don't really like this free pass label - i don't think it's really accurate to the situation.

we need to look at what happens with US and evaluate whether or not WE are going in the right direction - never mind what anyone else is getting up to. If by the end of the season the players are settled and we're turning in good displays and look to be heading in the right direction going in to next season, should we write that all off because Everton (or whoever) have a better season than us/finish above us? would that scenario mean that next season we can't expect to do better than them/improve upon ourselves?

Im not saying whether or not that will be the case - it's too early to tell, but come the end of the season that could be the situation we find ourselves in and if it is then i don't think giving up on progress (in terms of the players and their understanding of the tactics and results/performances) should be cast aside because another team improved quicker over one season.

Of course should we not show those signs of improvement between now and then it may be a different answer, however it shouldn't be reliant upon how other teams do.

 

[Jurgen the German]

i don't really like this free pass label - i don't think it's really accurate to the situation.

we need to look at what happens with US and evaluate whether or not WE are going in the right direction - never mind what anyone else is getting up to. If by the end of the season the players are settled and we're turning in good displays and look to be heading in the right direction going in to next season, should we write that all off because Everton (or whoever) have a better season than us/finish above us? would that scenario mean that next season we can't expect to do better than them/improve upon ourselves?

Im not saying whether or not that will be the case - it's too early to tell, but come the end of the season that could be the situation we find ourselves in and if it is then i don't think giving up on progress (in terms of the players and their understanding of the tactics and results/performances) should be cast aside because another team improved quicker over one season.

Of course should we not show those signs of improvement between now and then it may be a different answer, however it shouldn't be reliant upon how other teams do.

Erm, pretty much yeah 8-[ If we had finished below Saudi Sportswashing Machine two seasons ago then it would have been fair game for Levy to have sacked Redknapp for that reason alone. How else are we supposed to judge progress if not by league position? I am sorry to keep repeating myself mate, but European places are given out by league positions, not by how fans judge the progress of their team. Football is a results business as much as a chairman may like the manager he appointed. Do you really think David Moyes will not be sacked if he misses out on the top 4 this season, wins nothing and does the same next season and the season after?

I'm sorry if the term "free pass" sounded a bit agressive, but that's what it is in my eyes. You can't have it both ways. If we finish below the big 4 (Emirates Marketing Project, Scum, United, Chelsea) you won't be able to move for the people saying it's only AVB's second season and he's doing the absolute best job he can given the resources he has. Now if we finish below Everton in Martinez's first season, with lesser resources and his first season at a big club and people will be saying it's because we have an unsettled squad? I'm not having it. I accept the first half of the season could be dodgy, but by the turn of the year I would expect the performances to pick (they have done slightly to be fair lately) and results to be similar at the very least, but hopefully slightly better.

 

[billyiddo]

the point being that if we show improvement in the second half of this season, you could reason that the loss of Bale and the introduction of so many new faces was a big contributing factor to our 'slow' start, OR that the players were finding it difficult to come to terms with tactics and style of play OR AVB hadn't quite perfected what is was that he wanted from the team etc one could then reason that going in to next season, without those obstacles and with the players showing themselves to be competent in the manner in which they are asked to play, we should be looking to pick up from where we left off and have a good year.


all of which is far more important, long term speaking, than merely where we finish or who we finish behind in an isolated season.

 

[milo]

I expect us to finish above Everton and Liverpool this season. They are both playing well but I am not sure that they have another level and their squads are thin. I think that there is more to come from us and we've kept pace with the pack whilst the new players are settling. I've always felt that if we are in touching distance at Christmas, we'd go on to have a good season and it is looking like we will be. We have even been a bit easier on the eye of late

 

[Jurgen the German]

the point being that if we show improvement in the second half of this season, you could reason that the loss of Bale and the introduction of so many new faces was a big contributing factor to our 'slow' start, OR that the players were finding it difficult to come to terms with tactics and style of play OR AVB hadn't quite perfected what is was that he wanted from the team etc one could then reason that going in to next season, without those obstacles and with the players showing themselves to be competent in the manner in which they are asked to play, we should be looking to pick up from where we left off and have a good year.


all of which is far more important, long term speaking, than merely where we finish or who we finish behind in an isolated season.

I don't agree. Everton also lost their best player, Fellaini is not in the same class, but he was a massive player to them. Signing players is meant to be a good thing, even if it does take time to integrate them, we might as well never sign another player again if it's that much of an obstacle. If we're really going to use this as an excuse for underperforming then it's fair to say the same for Everton. They've also had to integrate new players; Deulofeu, McCarthy, Lukaku, Barry, Kone. It's up to AVB to make sure the players do understand the system.

I wanted to ammend my post from earlier but I may as well just add it to this post. If Everton were to finish 3rd and we finish 4th, then obviously it would be harsh to say sack AVB, I'm not that unreasonable :lol: But if we finish anything lower than 6th, then that is unnacceptable in my humble opinion. I would say 5th is the minimum really, again, not too demanding considering some on here are saying we should get into the top 4, one poster even let me have it for saying I didn't think we had a prayer of winning the title, he clearly thinks we do.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I expect us to finish above Everton and Liverpool this season. They are both playing well but I am not sure that they have another level and their squads are thin. I think that there is more to come from us and we've kept pace with the pack whilst the new players are settling. I've always felt that if we are in touching distance at Christmas, we'd go on to have a good season and it is looking like we will be. We have even been a bit easier on the eye of late

Agreed.

We've so often in recent years been the team everyone is raving about in the first half of the season, the young pretenders looking to smash the established elite with their brand of swashbuckling football. Then the fall down is just so hard to take because of how everyone got their hopes up.

I quite like being in the position we are in at the moment - it is clear we are trying to approach the matches, and the season, with a certain element of control and we quite obviously haven't seen the best of the likes of Eriksen, Lamela, Soldado, and perhaps even Paulinho yet. Chadli and Capoue have done ok and with an actual run of games can probably go up another level too. Everyone is raving about Everton and Liverpool (and I think both teams have talented coaches and are capable of playing lovely football) and no one really fancies us. No one really fancied Arsenal for the last few years, they were seen as having their time passed while the brave new Spurs were swooping in to establish a new order. Always inevitably Arsenal would fire back when it mattered because they were prepared as a top club would be.

And I get the sense that's how we are being prepared now. Everyone is writing our new signings off, our manager is under pressure, and we are loitering in 6th. But we have been careful, we don't over exert ourselves needlessly, and we haven't rushed our new signings into the team, rather we have allowed them to acclimatise. I genuinely think the second half of the season can be very good for us, and we can surprise a lot of people. We are now the ones with the room and the potential to improve, while Everton and Liverpool are the swashbuckling new pretenders with the thin squads and the fat goal differences.

 

[Jurgen the German]

The man is a legend but he was not on par with his alternatives at the final stretch of the 11/12 season.

It's a shame we don't have the ability to look back that far back on this forum anymore. King was utterly shocking vs Norwich at home (we would have won that imo with anyone else playing at the back..that's how bad he was). King was utterly shocking against City and gave away a pen. King was bad against Arsenal..actually very bad. I'm pretty sure there are more examples.

To say he was the worst of the bunch (at that time) is certainly more accurate then labeling him "our best defender".

He was poor against Arsenal and woeful against Norwich agreed.

I think you're being harsh about the Emirates Marketing Project game. He only put one foot wrong in 94 minutes, and that was the giving the penalty away, for fouling a player who shouldn't have even been on the pitch I might add. Plus Ekotto hoofing the ball upfield instead of trying to keep it didn't help.

But I do agree in general, he started to decline from January onwards.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I think this is a good point, along with the point made earlier about his Wigan teams being soft at the back.

Is the Baines injury the first real injury at the back for Everton? Being able to play the same back 4 that all knew each other very well from playing several seasons together is a massive advantage to have. Compare that to our injury problems with Rose, Kaboul and now Vertonghen forcing us into rotating, bedding in a new player, shifting a centre back to left back and having Kaboul play when obviously returning from injury is a challenge Martinez is yet to face as Everton manager.

Injuries are part of the game. Liverpool will be without Sturridge for two months and Suarez missed the first 5-6 games of the season through suspension. Don't think anyone will give them any benefit of the doubt if we finish above them.

 

[billyiddo]

I don't agree. Everton also lost their best player, Fellaini is not in the same class, but he was a massive player to them. Signing players is meant to be a good thing, even if it does take time to integrate them, we might as well never sign another player again if it's that much of an obstacle. If we're really going to use this as an excuse for underperforming then it's fair to say the same for Everton. They've also had to integrate new players; Deulofeu, McCarthy, Lukaku, Barry, Kone. It's up to AVB to make sure the players do understand the system.

I wanted to ammend my post from earlier but I may as well just add it to this post. If Everton were to finish 3rd and we finish 4th, then obviously it would be harsh to say sack AVB, I'm not that unreasonable :lol: But if we finish anything lower than 6th, then that is unnacceptable in my humble opinion. I would say 5th is the minimum really, again, not too demanding considering some on here are saying we should get into the top 4, one poster even let me have it for saying I didn't think we had a prayer of winning the title, he clearly thinks we do.

so if over the course of the second half of the season things click in to place for us : the players 'get' the tactics and AVB finds a winning way of tweaking his tactics to success but, unfortunately, a little too late to bring a top 4 finish and a much improved Everton side pip us to 4th (or 5th even) then you'd be willing to throw that improvement away, bring in a new manager and start the process all over again.

i fail to see the logic in that mate

edit : sorry missed the '6th of lower' part of your post

 

[Jurgen the German]

so if over the course of the second half of the season things click in to place for us : the players 'get' the tactics and AVB finds a winning way of tweaking his tactics to success but, unfortunately, a little too late to bring a top 4 finish and a much improved Everton side pip us to 4th (or 5th even) then you'd be willing to throw that improvement away, bring in a new manager and start the process all over again.

i fail to see the logic in that mate

edit : sorry missed the '6th of lower' part of your post

No listen I ammended my post, IF they were to say finish 4th and we finish 5th, that would obviously mean at least one of United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal or Emirates Marketing Project would also finish below Spurs. In which case yes it would be silly to sack him. BUT if we finish 6th-7th and finish below Everton, then yes I think it would be reasonable for Levy to think he's not getting the best return from the resources he supplied to the manager and it would be time for a change. I really don't think he got AVB and spent vast amounts of money for two straight seasons not just one season for us to finish 6th or 7th.

 

[billyiddo]

No listen I ammended my post, IF they were to say finish 4th and we finish 5th, that would obviously mean at least one of United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal or Emirates Marketing Project would also finish below Spurs. In which case yes it would be silly to sack him. BUT if we finish 6th-7th and finish below Everton, then yes I think it would be reasonable for Levy to think he's not getting the best return from the resources he supplied to the manager and it would be time for a change. I really don't think he got AVB and spent vast amounts of money for two straight seasons not just one season for us to finish 6th or 7th.

no of course not and it's not something i would be happy with either should it never look like improving - what Im getting at is that league position only tells you how you did over the last 38 games, it doesn't tell you where you will finish in the coming seasons. IF we show good signs of improvement between now and the end of the season in the areas discussed, then i think there would be reason to believe that we could carry that on into the new year (not just results here - performances as well) as it would point to all parties involved just taking longer than expected to arrive at that point (winning/playing well)

If we don't show any improvement and we finish 6th/7th or wherever then of course questions will need to be asked

 

[Jurgen the German]

no of course not and it's not something i would be happy with either should it never look like improving - what Im getting at is that league position only tells you how you did over the last 38 games, it doesn't tell you where you will finish in the coming seasons. IF we show good signs of improvement between now and the end of the season in the areas discussed, then i think there would be reason to believe that we could carry that on into the new year (not just results here - performances as well) as it would point to all parties involved just taking longer than expected to arrive at that point (winning/playing well)

If we don't show any improvement and we finish 6th/7th or wherever then of course questions will need to be asked

I don't think I can add anything different from what I have said already.

 

[billyiddo]

I don't think I can add anything different from what I have said already.

fair do's - you could always try "yeah you have a point actually"



i just think it would be silly to throw away the hypothetical progress of two seasons in charge - because it didn't happen sooner - the important thing, for me, right now is that the team get to grips with how the manager wants us to play/AVB finds the right way to play and that the new players settle in and start to perform to the level we expect of them. If all that happens then we can look forward to good times with the current set up, regardless of where we finish this season.

that's not to say i would be happy with a poor league finish or that i don't expect us to challenge for the Champions League places.

 

[Jurgen the German]

fair do's - you could always try "yeah you have a point actually"



i just think it would be silly to throw away the hypothetical progress of two seasons in charge - because it didn't happen sooner - the important thing, for me, right now is that the team get to grips with how the manager wants us to play/AVB finds the right way to play and that the new players settle in and start to perform to the level we expect of them. If all that happens then we can look forward to good times with the current set up, regardless of where we finish this season.

that's not to say i would be happy with a poor league finish or that no 'blame' needs to be dished out though

But I can't write that if it's not true can I?

 

[billyiddo]

i guess not :lol:

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

I expect us to finish above Everton and Liverpool this season. They are both playing well but I am not sure that they have another level and their squads are thin. I think that there is more to come from us and we've kept pace with the pack whilst the new players are settling. I've always felt that if we are in touching distance at Christmas, we'd go on to have a good season and it is looking like we will be. We have even been a bit easier on the eye of late

Yep this, the city game was a bit of a shock to the system but the response has been good. We're in touch and we've got 2 or 3 gears to move up in to IMO, our signings haven't exactly contributed hugely yet and you've got to think at least 2 or 3 of them will start to show up as they get used to things.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

fair do's - you could always try "yeah you have a point actually"

Don't be silly this is the internet!

 

[braineclipse]

Injuries are part of the game. Liverpool will be without Sturridge for two months and Suarez missed the first 5-6 games of the season through suspension. Don't think anyone will give them any benefit of the doubt if we finish above them.

I have no idea what this has to do with my post. I was comparing Martinez/Everton to AVB and us.

Injuries are part of the game, my point was about Everton/Martinez so far being fairly lucky in this regard and that most likely they won't be as lucky for all of the season and some of the problems AVB has had to face Martinez is yet to come up against.

 

[Jurgen the German]

I have no idea what this has to do with my post. I was comparing Martinez/Everton to AVB and us.

Injuries are part of the game, my point was about Everton/Martinez so far being fairly lucky in this regard and that most likely they won't be as lucky for all of the season and some of the problems AVB has had to face Martinez is yet to come up against.

It was more of a general point that all clubs have injuries. Rose has been injured, Kaboul is rarely fit but would he have featured ahead of Dawson? I'm not convinced he would have, so Rose is the only bad injury we've had in defence.