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AVB versus Martinez

Kingdawson said:
You're so quick to discredit his accomplishments but will make it your personal lifetime goal to build up everything AVB does and make every excuse under the sun for anything that he does wrong.
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If people aren't impressed with Martinez's managerial achievements so far, then I don't know how what AVB has achieved is so superior. Winning the Europa League was impressive, but so was winning the FA Cup and beating Emirates Marketing Project in the final. Some people seem to think winning the EL is almost on a par with winning the CL. I'm not saying anyone could win the league with Porto because it's not true, but I would say most half decent managers could acomplish it.

AVB should finish above Martinez this season, we have a bigger squad and has had sufficiently more funds to build said squad whilst Martinez has had to rely on loan deals for the most part.
 
we also have a less settled squad. avb and the squad overhaul we've just had - deserves only to be judged at the end of next season.

i hope for stability and especially decency - that we give coaches/managers/players a decent chance before we show them the door - so that there can still be some steady progress.

there will always be another year to win something, but those sudden management changes can be very stabilizing and may set us back.
 
Martinez has always been streaky as a manager. Lets see what happens when they hit a rocky patch. His Wigan teams would fall apart for months.
 
Mosquito_Coasting said:
Martinez has always been streaky as a manager. Lets see what happens when they hit a rocky patch. His Wigan teams would fall apart for months.
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I think this is a good point, along with the point made earlier about his Wigan teams being soft at the back.

Is the Baines injury the first real injury at the back for Everton? Being able to play the same back 4 that all knew each other very well from playing several seasons together is a massive advantage to have. Compare that to our injury problems with Rose, Kaboul and now Vertonghen forcing us into rotating, bedding in a new player, shifting a centre back to left back and having Kaboul play when obviously returning from injury is a challenge Martinez is yet to face as Everton manager.
 
Kingdawson said:
Our best defender? you're not honestly talking about Ledley king who who a shell of his former self and actually cost us badly at the end of the season? it must be someone else you're talking about.

As i said you can make every excuse under the sun. AVB was given a backline that conceded 41 goals prior to his arrival...i'm not going to get into a debate about what his style of play is etc etc. He's a manager that has to make decisions and should he feel the group of defenders do not have the necessary attributes to play his preferred style of play then he has the choice of not playing that way. He decided to play that way and it's worked defensively so the players must have had the necessary attributes that manager wanted.

I find it highly amusing the amount of excuses being made as to how martinez has managed to implement his style from the get go. Let me make it clear though...they do not play the same AT ALL in a defensive sense as people are trying to insinuate. It's the same personnel but the defenders are spreading far apart from one another, they are going 3 at the back for large chunks of a game, the wing backs are pushed all the way up. They've tweaked so much in a defensive sense so please no more excuses about them sticking to the same tactics.
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Please don't accuse me of making excuses for people. I stopped reading your post at that point. It is a shame, I enjoy discussing football with you but I object to you trying to group everyone with a different view from you together and then do a broad brush dismissal.
 
milo said:
Please don't accuse me of making excuses for people. I stopped reading your post at that point. It is a shame, I enjoy discussing football with you but I object to you trying to group everyone with a different view from you together and then do a broad brush dismissal.
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It's a shame you've taken it to heart but i'm happy you managed to read the bit about Ledley King being far far far far from our best defender (in 11/12 season) before you stopped reading.
 
Kingdawson said:
It's a shame you've taken it to heart but i'm happy you managed to read the bit about Ledley King being far far far far from our best defender (in 11/12 season) before you stopped reading.
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It would be nice if you tried to engage in discussion rather than jump down my throat
 
agree with KD on pretty much everything he is saying here. surprise surprise

I'll be asking someone neutral to read through this thread just to make sure i am not imagining anything :lol:

edit:- Actually the thing about King? not having it...best defender for spurs by a country mile...just lost that xtra step and no longer athletic (athritis in the knees for dear sake, bone on bone)...but everything there was superior to anything else anyone we have had at the time. his brain, tackling technique, all vastly superior ...

Long Live the King
 
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i think the downplay of Kings abilities is going a bit OTT - he wasn't at his best, no question, but was still on par with the alternatives
 
metalgear said:
we also have a less settled squad. avb and the squad overhaul we've just had - deserves only to be judged at the end of next season.

i hope for stability and especially decency - that we give coaches/managers/players a decent chance before we show them the door - so that there can still be some steady progress.

there will always be another year to win something, but those sudden management changes can be very stabilizing and may set us back.
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Don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that if Everton finish above us this season then AVB gets a free pass despite having greater resources at his disposal?
 
billyiddo said:
i think the downplay of Kings abilities is going a bit OTT - he wasn't at his best, no question, but was still on par with the alternatives
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Ability wise no question. Fitness wise, not a chance, he couldn't run during the final few months. He deteriorated rapidly from about January onwards.
 
billyiddo said:
i think the downplay of Kings abilities is going a bit OTT - he wasn't at his best, no question, but was still on par with the alternatives
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The man is a legend but he was not on par with his alternatives at the final stretch of the 11/12 season.

It's a shame we don't have the ability to look back that far back on this forum anymore. King was utterly shocking vs Norwich at home (we would have won that imo with anyone else playing at the back..that's how bad he was). King was utterly shocking against City and gave away a pen. King was bad against Arsenal..actually very bad. I'm pretty sure there are more examples.

To say he was the worst of the bunch (at that time) is certainly more accurate then labeling him "our best defender".
 
Jurgen the German said:
Don't want to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that if Everton finish above us this season then AVB gets a free pass despite having greater resources at his disposal?
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weird isnt it.

If Martinez had our resources and we had no money i would think that the claim would be opposite

makes you wonder why we buy anyone at all
 
Just had a look and after the Saudi Sportswashing Machine win that season:

King played in all our 5 remaining loses. He then got dropped for Blackburn game onwards and we won 3 and drew 1 of the last 4 games. This is not conclusive evidence for anything but it certainly puts to bed the argument that he was our best defender at the time.

Edit: Actually it doesn't even do that...his actual performances added with the results does that.
 
Kingdawson said:
The man is a legend but he was not on par with his alternatives at the final stretch of the 11/12 season.

It's a shame we don't have the ability to look back that far back on this forum anymore. King was utterly shocking vs Norwich at home (we would have won that imo with anyone else playing at the back..that's how bad he was). King was utterly shocking against City and gave away a pen. King was bad against Arsenal..actually very bad. I'm pretty sure there are more examples.

To say he was the worst of the bunch (at that time) is certainly more accurate then labeling him "our best defender".
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Oh my days!!!! That is rubbish....the pen was a bad choice on his part but king was right there in the thick of things in that game

I think someone needs to get marched to the alter of the King, get on his knees and beg for forgiveness. This attack on Kings memory is disgraceful ..especially an incorrect one

bad at city? no way...norwhich wasnt the best but again....baaaaaadd bad? no...i think Kings world class level puts him at a disadvantage in that when he doesnt have a world class game people say he played ****
 
Kingdawson said:
Just had a look and after the Saudi Sportswashing Machine win that season:

King played in all our 5 remaining loses. He then got dropped for Blackburn game onwards and we won 3 and drew 1 of the last 4 games. This is not conclusive evidence for anything but it certainly puts to bed the argument that he was our best defender at the time.
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eerrm, no. we had the dip in form cause Redknapp was distracted and i think the form / confidence of the players wasnt addressed properly. there was much more a coincidence between Harry flirting for the job with England and when we were on a bad patch
 
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