AVB & Spurs Tactics and Formations discussion thread

[africanspurs]

absolutely spot on.

I cannot believe that Redknapp, Bond, Jordan couldnt have realised such a simple idea. Absolutely baffling

i think you're kind of both wrong if you want to play sandro on the right and make him the wonky. i.e wide playmaker. jenas could cut it cause he was a jack of all trades

 

[africanspurs]

Arry was so concerned about Vdv playing right midfield because of the attacking threat of Baines but was more then happy to start Niko on the right against Arsenal in a 4-4-2 despite the attacking threat of Gibbs ( who is a fb that goes forward a lot) and it also looked like Oxdale Chamberlain was gonna start on the left too. Makes no sense at all.

Niko is better defensively from the flank than VDV. i believe this to be categorically true. Niko is more willing to do the team defending and chase people ALL the way and actually try to get infront of them than VDV is , especially from the flank. i would imagine thats why he was more than willing to play Niko against gibbs...who i have to say didnt really do THAT much when NIko was playing

 

[indianspur]

i think you're kind of both wrong if you want to play sandro on the right and make him the wonky. i.e wide playmaker. jenas could cut it cause he was a jack of all trades

the point is that Bale would remain on the left, Modric and Parker in the centre. Our best players remain in their best positions.

Instead, we decide to shake the whole thing up, our playmaker goes to the left, Sandro and parker in the middle leaving us bereft of creativity in a crucial area, and Bale is put out wide right to counter the marauding Baines.

one injury to Lennon and our whole midfield is turned upside down instead of leaving 3 players in their natural positions and using Sandro in a role not natural to him but he would have been effective in keeping an eye on Baines as well as allowing Walker the freedom to attack up and down that right hand side

 

[indianspur]

oh, lest we not forget that lennon would have been fit for this important game had he not been selected midweek against lowly Stevenage](*,)

 

[Kingdawson]

But there was a big risk of either Oxdale chamberlain or Gervinho playing there ( no one expected Benayoun to start there). As for tracking back, Niko might be slightly better than Vdv at it but then you'd have to compare the a attacking threat of Baines with that of Gibbs AND Oxdale.

 

[ArcspacE]

Define large part of the season. I've just posted the games he's started, all six of them. All of which he played well bar the Arsenal game. He's a backup player, funnily enough backup players aren't as good as the first team. I have no idea what's going on here, I'm being made to look like a Kranjcar fanboy when all I've done is point out how ridiculous it is to try and blame Kranjcar for this run.

Krunchie isn't good enough to back up the players he's supposed to be 'backing up'.

I'm not blaming him for the loss of form - that's the best he can do - I'm blaming management for picking him in a crucial game knowing his limitations and our opponent's strength

FFS - he was invisible against League 1 giants Stevenage and got completely owned in the middle. Invisible performance. Zero contribution. Not good enough

 

[Kingdawson]

Directed at AS.

 

[africanspurs]

OK - how about he's just not good enough and pinning your hopes on someone with no pace, no discipline and an occasional flash of brilliance smacks as nothing short of desperation

dont agree with this. some of our best performances ever have been with NIko present and with him working very hard.

infact, i wouldnt mind someone being able to tell us how many games we have actually lost when Niko has played on the flanks.

games against wolves away, liverpool, Saudi Sportswashing Machine at home..all had niko on the flank. i quite enjoyed the 9-1 against wigan last year too

I really rate Niko when his effort is high

 

[africanspurs]

the point is that Bale would remain on the left, Modric and Parker in the centre. Our best players remain in their best positions.

Instead, we decide to shake the whole thing up, our playmaker goes to the left, Sandro and parker in the middle leaving us bereft of creativity in a crucial area, and Bale is put out wide right to counter the marauding Baines.

one injury to Lennon and our whole midfield is turned upside down instead of leaving 3 players in their natural positions and using Sandro in a role not natural to him but he would have been effective in keeping an eye on Baines as well as allowing Walker the freedom to attack up and down that right hand side

i dont personally like the mish mash of personell but i can sort of see why it was the way it was but if things were done over then i think harry would have moved bale wide left and modric wide right . i think bale was moved wide right to accomodate modric playing with BAE due to BAE being better defensively. so it all worked out...deal with baines and have balance on the left. i think if he had to do it again he would use modric as the guy that baines would have to worry about.

 

[Rossi22]

Krunchie isn't good enough to back up the players he's supposed to be 'backing up'.

I'm not blaming him for the loss of form - that's the best he can do - I'm blaming management for picking him in a crucial game knowing his limitations and our opponent's strength

FFS - he was invisible against League 1 giants Stevenage and got completely owned in the middle. Invisible performance. Zero contribution. Not good enough

Well the results say differently. Fact is when Kranjcar has played instead of Lennon the results have been positive, whether you rate him or not. Using a game where he played central midfield is hardly relevant either, I could make Luka look bad if I based my opinion on him when he's playing wide right.

 

[africanspurs]

oh, lest we not forget that lennon would have been fit for this important game had he not been selected midweek against lowly Stevenage](*,)

we had to win that game, we are in with a good shout for the FA.......i'm glad lennon suited up for that. imgaine if we had lost or drawn and you xcould point to lack of pace somewhere...you would be tinkled

 

[ArnieArdiles]

I like the football debate , not the other stuff ....

I agree with those dismayed with the roles Modric and Bale were both given prior to kick-off .

Agree with Hootnow :
Do Barcelona put Xavi on the left? Do Man utd put Scholes on the left? Sandro and Parker in the middle?

Now I accept I'm no expert , and theres accusations flying around not just on this forum it has to be said , that there's to many FM experts when results dont go our way ..

however , somethings seem obvious and I really don't understand why some peeps get the hump with others for airing a view ...


Bale for me should be on the left, with Modric in the center ... When you go into an away game like at Everton on the back of two heavy defeats, you have to take the loss of confidence the players will have into account . Defeats such as the ones against Mancs and Goons can play on the mind .

The best thing to do then with this in mind, for the Everton game is to play the players in their positions , its to go back to what was giving you wins . Parker in the middle as a holding midfielder and I do mean a holding midfielder, with Modric orchestrating ahead .. Bale out left ... VDV behind the lone forward .. Start that way with the right winger of your choice , just do not change the hub of the team at this time ..Never play your two most influential players out their most influential positions!

So we're not the experts but what of those that are ? I'm left thinking, just how many of the other 19 premeirship managers, were they managing our squad at Everton , would they make those same changes ?

Ferguson would play Modric on the wing .... ?
How about Wenger ?
Would Moyes ?

I bet Moyes liked the look of our line-up more than many of us did prior to kick-off.

Its a poor showing by our manager with his starting game plan and this was reflected in the teams unhappy first half performance. I think he did his best with the half-time team talk and we were better in the second half . A draw would've been a fairer result and I'd have been happy with a point but it just wasn't to be..


Also whilst I'm on a rant ....

Livermore on but no Kranjcar when a goal was needed?

And our deadball situations , we're so bad , why ?

And why did we have to sell our one decent free-kick taker at the club ?

I miss my SuperPav :frown:

All is not lost , loads of twists and turns to come I'm sure .... I still believe.......Stoke next ..COYS

 

[ArcspacE]

Rossi22, in the games you mentioned he was hardly the pinnacle of our performance and was largerly carried by his superior team-mates

Ability aside - he simply doesn't look fit enough to compete in this league

 

[BrainOfLevy]

You don't think Sandro would have been able to track back and deal with Baines? You really think the best use of Bale is to "pin back" an opponents left back to defend better?

Many wingers do brilliantly as "inverted wingers". That's not the same as it being a good idea for everyone. Bale has looked extremely one footed when being played on the right and rarely, if ever looked a threat going down the outside of players. Something Robben, Duff, Ribery, Ronaldo do with ease.

There is also a big difference between playing as an inverted winger in a 4-4-2 and in a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 like Robben and Duff did for Chelsea, Ronaldo does for Real or in fact Bale does for Wales. Especially when we have no creative players in the centre so we have to rely on our wingers to pick the ball up at the half way line!

I have no problems at all with young players playing in multiple positions, I think it's a great idea. But when we are in tough games at the business end of the season and things aren't working for us I'm not sure it's the best idea.

Of course he would do a good job, but that misses the point that I made in my post underneath that one. We could stick Sandro there to cover Baines, but that isn't what we are asking Bale to do. We want the initiative so Baines is pinned back because we have an attacking threat there. Everton decided to pin Coleman on Bale wherever he went - a defensive move and as such they didn't get out of their half for 45 minutes. Us putting Sandro on the right means nothing would come down that side, either from us or them, which isn't what we are trying to do. We still wanted Bale to be a threat in his own right.

In reality Sandro was never going to be played there as it wasn't about nullifying Baines, just keeping him occupied by us so they react to us rather than us to them. If Bale was to be played on the left it would mean Modric on the right and he would have spent all his time chasing back Baines rather than creating for us. It's the difference between being an outlet and an instigator. With Bale to contend with, Baines has to watch out for our outlet and can't be so gung ho. With Modric/VDV/Sandro to contend with, he doesn't have to worry about outlets, and knows he has cover behind him. We wanted an outlet.

Although come to think of it, maybe Sandro/Parker on the right, Modric in the middle and Bale on the left wouldn't have been such a bad idea with hindsight. But it also could have meant that they rip through out soft centre with direct play because as it was, Sandro made a lot of good tackles in the middle. I dunno, I just don't think the team was set up too terribly. We are on an unlucky run and still deserved easily a point from that game.

 

[indianspur]

we had to win that game, we are in with a good shout for the FA.......i'm glad lennon suited up for that. imgaine if we had lost or drawn and you xcould point to lack of pace somewhere...you would be tinkled

there was no need to play Bale AND Lennon. Bale missed the Utd game so it was ok to play just him midweek. But Lennon, who has a history of dodgy hamstrings/groins, and who had played against Utd, really didnt need to be risked on a cold midweek evening game against such lowly opposition.

and please, we were at home to Stevenage. We have a squad large enough to cope with that sort of game without having to be so desperate to play Bale and lennon together. Plus their pace was more vital in an away game like at Everton where we need pace on the break than in a home game against Stevenage who are more likely to sit back and invite us onto them.

 

[Rossi22]

Rossi22, in the games you mentioned he was hardly the pinnacle of our performance and was largerly carried by his superior team-mates

Ability aside - he simply doesn't look fit enough to compete in this league

Well if you think that then fair enough. But evidently when Kranjcar has played in place of Lennon, the team has barely skipped a beat. Unlike when Harry has decided to move half the team around to make up for one player missing.

 

[Kingdawson]

I think this whole notion of Redknapp experiementing with his formations at the wrong time is a little bit of a myth looking back at some of the games this season.

We started crap when we had no DM for the first 2 games and got hammered.

Then we got Ade and Parker, and started a fantastic run. Lennon and VdV were missing for the first few games in this run. So we lined up:

------------------------Friedel--------------------------
Walker---------Kaboul--------------King---------Ekotto
Kranjcar-------Modric------------Parker----------Bale
----------------Adebayor---------Defoe----------------

This saw us win at Wolves and then Liverpool.

VdV returned against Arsenal. We played him on the right and Defoe and Ade up top. Got a bit lucky but were much better when Sandro came on.

Against Wigan we saw:

------------------------Friedel--------------------------
Walker---------Kaboul--------------King---------Ekotto
----------------Sandro------------Parker---------------
---------Modric-----------VdV--------------Bale--------
-------------------------Adebayor---------------------

First half was fantastic.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine was a similar lineup with Livermore playing.

Then Lennon came back and we played probably our best football this season with this lineup:

------------------------Friedel--------------------------
Walker---------Kaboul--------------King---------Ekotto
Lennon----------Modric------------Parker--------Bale
----------------------------VdV-----------------------
-------------------------Adebayor---------------------

We beat Blackburn, QPR, Fulham, Villa.

Defoe played v West Brom when VdV and Modric were ruled out.

The pattern continued and Harry has toyed with a few different formations with the given personnel he has.

It would certainly appear as though the side has enjoyed playing 4-4-1-1 with Lennon and Bale out wide and VdV tucked behind Ade and results on the whole have reflected that.

Saha's signing I feel has been shrewed but has added to the weight of the "we should be playing 2 up top" argument. Perhaps to the detriment of the team. The Saudi Sportswashing Machine performance was the performance of the season so far. Kranjcar played right and Saha and Ade up top.

I am a firm believer of studying your opposition and not being arrogant enough to simply think they should worry about us. Especially the top sides. We have been unlucky in that in nearly all the games against the top sides we have not been able to field what I would consider our strongest XI.

Fantastic post Diego.

 

[africanspurs]

But there was a big risk of either Oxdale chamberlain or Gervinho playing there ( no one expected Benayoun to start there). As for tracking back, Niko might be slightly better than Vdv at it but then you'd have to compare the a attacking threat of Baines with that of Gibbs AND Oxdale.

good point about OX and gervinho, no one knew who would play. (or maybe harry did? man on the inside?).....i'm assuming then what that relates to is the old Arsene wenger bluff, its his strength and his curse. the point is that HE will ALWAYS do the same thing and its up to the opposition to exploit it or to counter it. OX and gervinho would have been very tough to watch...but how would they react to a wandering position and attacking full ? they too would have to re-adjust and get pinned back..or WE could get pinned back and they would keep going at us.

the REAL issue here is walker, who is defensively poor IMO......were it BAE then i wouldnt care as much...let them have OX, walcott and gervinho...cause BAE can do damage control.

like i said Niko will work hard for the team, he'll chase after Gibbs or whoever he needs to. considering we were worse when Niko came off against the scum....i dont know. i think Niko is being given some bad karma for little reason other than Harry hasnt exposed him to us enough

 

[africanspurs]

I like the football debate , not the other stuff ....

I agree with those dismayed with the roles Modric and Bale were both given prior to kick-off .

Agree with Hootnow :
Do Barcelona put Xavi on the left? Do Man utd put Scholes on the left? Sandro and Parker in the middle?

Now I accept I'm no expert , and theres accusations flying around not just on this forum it has to be said , that there's to many FM experts when results dont go our way ..

however , somethings seem obvious and I really don't understand why some peeps get the hump with others for airing a view ...


Bale for me should be on the left, with Modric in the center ... When you go into an away game like at Everton on the back of two heavy defeats, you have to take the loss of confidence the players will have into account . Defeats such as the ones against Mancs and Goons can play on the mind .

The best thing to do then with this in mind, for the Everton game is to play the players in their positions , its to go back to what was giving you wins . Parker in the middle as a holding midfielder and I do mean a holding midfielder, with Modric orchestrating ahead .. Bale out left ... VDV behind the lone forward .. Start that way with the right winger of your choice , just do not change the hub of the team at this time ..Never play your two most influential players out their most influential positions!

So we're not the experts but what of those that are ? I'm left thinking, just how many of the other 19 premeirship managers, were they managing our squad at Everton , would they make those same changes ?

Ferguson would play Modric on the wing .... ?
How about Wenger ?
Would Moyes ?

I bet Moyes liked the look of our line-up more than many of us did prior to kick-off.

Its a poor showing by our manager with his starting game plan and this was reflected in the teams unhappy first half performance. I think he did his best with the half-time team talk and we were better in the second half . A draw would've been a fairer result and I'd have been happy with a point but it just wasn't to be..


Also whilst I'm on a rant ....

Livermore on but no Kranjcar when a goal was needed?

And our deadball situations , we're so bad , why ?

And why did we have to sell our one decent free-kick taker at the club ?

I miss my SuperPav :frown:

All is not lost , loads of twists and turns to come I'm sure .... I still believe.......Stoke next ..COYS

weird. ferguson HAS played scholes on the flank when scholes was much younger, he plays Giggs there on the flank and giggs doesnt have the pace anymore...he's a wide playmaker. he plays park and he's a central midifielder

why would barca move Xavi to the left when they dont have a left midfield position? and yet they are overloaded with top class FLANK players? that makes no sense

fergie may actually play modders wide, who knows ....... and as for moyes...he plays osman (who was actually a central nimble and mobile player) wide. he played Arteta of all people on the flank and arteta was amazing there , especially when he played with baines on the left

And why uis moyes being used as comparison anyway? is he amazing after this win?

 

[mick cooper]

this is an open forum, surely the carpers and whiners have as much right to have their say as the jolly everything is ok fans

sure, not sure why you think there is anyone on here satisfied with 3 back to back losses, but there you go