Antonio Conte - officially NOT the coach of THFC

[Raziel]

To hopefully fall somewhere between you and @Raziel....

Up to a point I can empathise with Conte.
When you believe you have a winning mentality, winning tactics, winning system, winning culture and that's been rubber stamped by actual 'winning' you're level of belief in yourself is so high that when it's not working your automatic reaction is it must be other people are failing you. Combine this with the thought that you are more than likely doing 70-80 hour weeks, ie working your arse off, frustration will build and if you're a combustible chap, these moments will occur.

The two problems I have is.
1. He didn't say this to the players in the dressing room first (in fact I don't think he said it to them at all). He chose the 'pain in the arse the rest of the time' media to convey his message. Yes, give them a story let them lap it up. Generous to them, disloyal to his club.
2. It was only partly honest. Absolutely zero self reflection, self awareness. All blame arrows pointed away from Antonio. As I said, he's like that because he can't possibly think anything he was doing was causing the situation. In this case I put very little blame on the layers above him. I think they did their best to mitigate the potential issues you may expect with AC. So much so Conte has barely muttered a grievance beyond 'Club signing'.

The sad truth for him is he is provided with the very best of everything to facilitate his training/coaching regime, and undoubtedly he puts the hours in. He lives and breathes football. Unfortunately that actually counts against him if things aren't working, everything is on his watch. He is (was) the captain of the ship.

So things are often "somewhere in the middle"

That said, point 2 is the main problem. Do the owners and players deserve blame? yes, absolutely. Does Conte? yes, as much if not more.

And as a future club hiring, I'd be very skeptical of Conte at this point, none of us can improve if we fail to acknowledge or even see our own failures/challenges. If after 18 months you don't see that your message didn't resonate, didn't get through to the players, that's a problem. I'd also say, he quit (something I defended him for in the past), he gave up, he knew exactly what he was doing in that press conference, and it's a poor play.

 

[Raziel]

Putting Nuno aside, who was clearly a stop-gap, I really believer that the Jose and Conte appointments were more knee-jerk than well thought out. My theory is that Levy was feeling the pressure from the fans to win a trophy and brought in "win now" managers, believing that's what would have achieved that. Unfortunately, it backfired (you can pick your reasons why). The right move would have been to get a rebuild manager and set up the football operations structure towards that end (should have been done, actually, while Poch was still here). But can you imagine the fan backlash if, after Poch, we went back into "project mode" with the promise of silverware 2-3 years down the line after being in a CL final? I hate to say it, but Arsenal did it right and showed patience in doing it, and is now reaping the rewards.

I actually think it was too eager, too early (very odd for a club that has played the long, slow game for decades). My opinion, the club knew the stadium money was coming, felt there was a decent base of players (maybe wrong assumption), and a "right now" appointment with a couple of hundred million could get some immediate success (the attraction makes sense, get the trophy monkey off the back, get CL a couple more times, secure the position of the club).

The Arsenal thing drives me batty to be honest, I think Arteta and it being a plan on their part is super generous, I think they hired a guy to keep the fans quiet, who wouldn't say brick about the club (would be like us appointing Mason or Parker). He delivered two 8th place finishes in a row (for perspective, we haven't finished 8th since Juade's last season), and the success this season (while earned, you have to do it on the field) is because Pool, Chelsea and to some extent City are having bad seasons, I'm not convinced (whole other conversation) that they have found some long term formula (we will see)

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

So things are often "somewhere in the middle"

That said, point 2 is the main problem. Do the owners and players deserve blame? yes, absolutely. Does Conte? yes, as much if not more.

And as a future club hiring, I'd be very skeptical of Conte at this point, none of us can improve if we fail to acknowledge or even see our own failures/challenges. If after 18 months you don't see that your message didn't resonate, didn't get through to the players, that's a problem. I'd also say, he quit (something I defended him for in the past), he gave up, he knew exactly what he was doing in that press conference, and it's a poor play.

With the right situation and at the right club Conte and his methods can work and be successful again. This episode,definitely puts a question mark against him though, but I think he's a fair way behind Jose on the dinosaur curve.

In mitigation he has 100% had a tough year, and his own health problems have definitely spooked him. But much like his unwavering belief in his methods, you need a reality check from time to time And whether thats your work methods need reevaluating or your body is no longer bullet proof...it needs that check. You're on a downward slope otherwise.

It all came on so quickly though....as we put 5 past Norwich last May....who was thinking 'top 4 absolute bare minimum next season'? . ..To spend the money we did, a full pre season, a second pre season for players not at the WC...teams are built in their managers image...and I think you have to say that applies, good or bad.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Putting Nuno aside, who was clearly a stop-gap, I really believer that the Jose and Conte appointments were more knee-jerk than well thought out. My theory is that Levy was feeling the pressure from the fans to win a trophy and brought in "win now" managers, believing that's what would have achieved that. Unfortunately, it backfired (you can pick your reasons why). The right move would have been to get a rebuild manager and set up the football operations structure towards that end (should have been done, actually, while Poch was still here). But can you imagine the fan backlash if, after Poch, we went back into "project mode" with the promise of silverware 2-3 years down the line after being in a CL final? I hate to say it, but Arsenal did it right and showed patience in doing it, and is now reaping the rewards.

It's exactly what we should have done. Both Nagglesman and ten Hag were there in the offing right then.

I think Levy misjudged the fans - I think we all knew we were at the end of the cycle and needed a reset - with Poch or a new Poch.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Sky Sports reporting that Pochettino “wants to assess his options in the summer.”

Doesn't sound like he was waiting by the phone for our call after all.

Why would he be? He was treated appallingly last time after consistently overachieving over multiple years.

 

[Raziel]

Comparison of the exit statements (keeping in mind two were outright sackings, one by mutual consent) from Levy

Jose -> "Jose and his coaching staff have been with us through some of our most challenging times as a club. Jose is a true professional who showed enormous resilience during the pandemic," Levy said. "On a personal level I have enjoyed working with him and regret that things have not worked out as we both had envisaged. He will always be welcome here and we should like to thank him and his coaching staff for their contribution."

Nuno -> "I know how much Nuno and his coaching staff wanted to succeed and I regret that we have had to take this decision," he said. "Nuno is a true gentleman and will always be welcome here. We should like to thank him and his coaching staff and wish them well for the future."

Conte -> "We have 10 Premier League games remaining and we have a fight on our hands for a Champions League place. We all need to pull together. Everyone has to step up to ensure the highest possible finish for our club and amazing, loyal supporters,"

 

[AdamB]

Comparison of the exit statements (keeping in mind two were outright sackings, one by mutual consent) from Levy

Jose -> "Jose and his coaching staff have been with us through some of our most challenging times as a club. Jose is a true professional who showed enormous resilience during the pandemic," Levy said. "On a personal level I have enjoyed working with him and regret that things have not worked out as we both had envisaged. He will always be welcome here and we should like to thank him and his coaching staff for their contribution."

Nuno -> "I know how much Nuno and his coaching staff wanted to succeed and I regret that we have had to take this decision," he said. "Nuno is a true gentleman and will always be welcome here. We should like to thank him and his coaching staff and wish them well for the future."

Conte -> "We have 10 Premier League games remaining and we have a fight on our hands for a Champions League place. We all need to pull together. Everyone has to step up to ensure the highest possible finish for our club and amazing, loyal supporters,"

Quite funny. On the face of it, sounds like a falling out which would tie in with his outburst. Obviously a risk of putting 2 and 2 together...

 

[Mikey10]

https://www.theguardian.com/footbal...eign-blew-up-tottenham?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Comparison of the exit statements (keeping in mind two were outright sackings, one by mutual consent) from Levy

Jose -> "Jose and his coaching staff have been with us through some of our most challenging times as a club. Jose is a true professional who showed enormous resilience during the pandemic," Levy said. "On a personal level I have enjoyed working with him and regret that things have not worked out as we both had envisaged. He will always be welcome here and we should like to thank him and his coaching staff for their contribution."

Nuno -> "I know how much Nuno and his coaching staff wanted to succeed and I regret that we have had to take this decision," he said. "Nuno is a true gentleman and will always be welcome here. We should like to thank him and his coaching staff and wish them well for the future."

Conte -> "We have 10 Premier League games remaining and we have a fight on our hands for a Champions League place. We all need to pull together. Everyone has to step up to ensure the highest possible finish for our club and amazing, loyal supporters,"

Unless Conte is almost a 'sleeping manager' and when the rest of his crew leave in the summer we'll say some nice things then?

 

[Lilbaz]

Comparison of the exit statements (keeping in mind two were outright sackings, one by mutual consent) from Levy

Jose -> "Jose and his coaching staff have been with us through some of our most challenging times as a club. Jose is a true professional who showed enormous resilience during the pandemic," Levy said. "On a personal level I have enjoyed working with him and regret that things have not worked out as we both had envisaged. He will always be welcome here and we should like to thank him and his coaching staff for their contribution."

Nuno -> "I know how much Nuno and his coaching staff wanted to succeed and I regret that we have had to take this decision," he said. "Nuno is a true gentleman and will always be welcome here. We should like to thank him and his coaching staff and wish them well for the future."

Conte -> "We have 10 Premier League games remaining and we have a fight on our hands for a Champions League place. We all need to pull together. Everyone has to step up to ensure the highest possible finish for our club and amazing, loyal supporters,"

They did thank him for getting us cl.

 

[Raziel]

They did thank him for getting us cl.

Club statement, notice of managerial change -> "We can announce that head coach Antonio Conte has left the club by mutual agreement. We achieved Champions League qualification in Antonio’s first season at the club. We thank Antonio for his contribution and wish him well for the future."

What I posted above was Levy's statements

 

[Raziel]

So ignoring the commentary

- Conte conceded about the same (3 less in 2 less games)
- Scored more, 15 more
- Averaged <1% more possession

Considering Jose took over a side at the end of it's run, and that Conte got Romero, Betancur, Deki, Richi, Bissouma, Porro plus Forster (vs Hart) as backup GK. It looks like Jose actually did more with what he had (fudge, never thought I'd say that)

 

[Mcfee]

So ignoring the commentary

- Conte conceded about the same (3 less in 2 less games)
- Scored more, 15 more
- Averaged <1% more possession

Considering Jose took over a side at the end of it's run, and that Conte got Romero, Betancur, Deki, Richi, Bissouma, Porro plus Forster (vs Hart) as backup GK. It looks like Jose actually did more with what he had (fudge, never thought I'd say that)

Why aren’t won/drew/lost included in the above? Anyone got those stats?

 

[monkeybarry]

Why?
They are an advertising agency now masquerading as a news outlet

From soft porn to advertising - quite the fall from "grace"

 

[FatBloke]

I actually think it was too eager, too early (very odd for a club that has played the long, slow game for decades). My opinion, the club knew the stadium money was coming, felt there was a decent base of players (maybe wrong assumption), and a "right now" appointment with a couple of hundred million could get some immediate success (the attraction makes sense, get the trophy monkey off the back, get CL a couple more times, secure the position of the club).

The Arsenal thing drives me batty to be honest, I think Arteta and it being a plan on their part is super generous, I think they hired a guy to keep the fans quiet, who wouldn't say brick about the club (would be like us appointing Mason or Parker). He delivered two 8th place finishes in a row (for perspective, we haven't finished 8th since Juade's last season), and the success this season (while earned, you have to do it on the field) is because Pool, Chelsea and to some extent City are having bad seasons, I'm not convinced (whole other conversation) that they have found some long term formula (we will see)

I couldn't agree more. If you hire a manager to win you a trophy in the short term, and he doesn't do that, you need to get rid at the right point. You just have to read this board to see how many fans were done with Conte-ball. Rubbish football can only be tolerated so long, and even then, only if it's bringing results.

Unless you're playing catenaccio with Maldini and Baresi at the back, inviting that much pressure just isn't going to win games. The game has changed, esp. with the wonderful VAR random number generator meaning that any mistake in the box can result in a penalty.

How many people were lauding Arteta's Arsenal last season, when they completely bottled their CL place? How many were looking at them and saying how brilliantly run the club was when they finished 8th, twice? They've had a bit of luck with some decent young players coming through and the rest of the team clicking around them. Sure, some of that is down to stability and Arteta's management, but Lego-head certainly ain't the Messiah.

What Arsenal did have was a cupboard full of trophies from the last 20 years. They didn't have to be as desperate to get something from their shot. Unlike us. So they could take more time to mould a side, like Jol, Redknapp and Poch could.

I was very happy to see Mourinho and then Conte come in. They promised trophies. Both started well. But at the end, both failed in the same way. Playing scared, defensive football and lashing out at everyone around them.

 

[Raziel]

Why aren’t won/drew/lost included in the above? Anyone got those stats?

Don't have PL breakdown, but all up

Conte, G76, W41, D12, L23, GF136, GA85, GD51, Win% 53.95
Jose, G86, W44, D19, L23, GF166, GA103, GD63, Win% 51.16

 

[Mikey10]

Why would he rush to join us, or any other manager?
To deal with the fall out from conte?
To take the flak for not making top four?
Or the ever growing injury list?
Any sensible candidate is going to wait until the summer, see where we finish, see how the players handle contes comments and then make thier pitch for the job.
No need for them to hurry, it's the club that's under pressure, not someone who may or may not be offered a job.

Don’t disagree. Not the narrative put forward by a few on here, though, who had him sitting by his phone awaiting our call.

Why?
They are an advertising agency now masquerading as a news outlet

Perhaps because they employ journalists who spend their entire professional lives cultivating contacts at clubs, interviewing players and managers, and establishing wider networks from which my they source information?

Meanwhile, GG and other forums are peopled by posters (me included) who voice their own thoughts and theories with no real knowledge base.

One of the things that makes me chuckle on here is the casual dismissal of anything journalists have to say if it doesn’t fit the agenda of a particular poster, often with said journalist being condemned as ‘anti-Spurs.’

 

[Glenda's Legs]

Comparison of the exit statements (keeping in mind two were outright sackings, one by mutual consent) from Levy

Jose -> "Jose and his coaching staff have been with us through some of our most challenging times as a club. Jose is a true professional who showed enormous resilience during the pandemic," Levy said. "On a personal level I have enjoyed working with him and regret that things have not worked out as we both had envisaged. He will always be welcome here and we should like to thank him and his coaching staff for their contribution."

Nuno -> "I know how much Nuno and his coaching staff wanted to succeed and I regret that we have had to take this decision," he said. "Nuno is a true gentleman and will always be welcome here. We should like to thank him and his coaching staff and wish them well for the future."

Conte -> "We have 10 Premier League games remaining and we have a fight on our hands for a Champions League place. We all need to pull together. Everyone has to step up to ensure the highest possible finish for our club and amazing, loyal supporters,"

Not surprising really if Levy is p1ssd off at the situation. It’s likely all parties had agreed we would be parting ways at the end of the season. Then Conte attacks the fans one week, then has his melt down rant and blames the players and the club/owners and then disappears off to Italy. So the club are catapulted into having to make decisions earlier than anticipated based on what had been agreed. Yes you could say it was all predictable but I can see why the club statement was lacking warmth.

 

[glasgowspur]

Don’t disagree. Not the narrative put forward by a few on here, though, who had him sitting by his phone awaiting our call.



Perhaps because they employ journalists who spend their entire professional lives cultivating contacts at clubs, interviewing players and managers, and establishing wider networks from which my they source information?

Meanwhile, GG and other forums are peopled by posters (me included) who voice their own thoughts and theories with no real knowledge base.

One of the things that makes me chuckle on here is the casual dismissal of anything journalists have to say if it doesn’t fit the agenda of a particular poster, often with said journalist being condemned as ‘anti-Spurs.’

He probably is waiting on the call, but with every failed manager his hand strengthens and the club weakens.
He knows that, he also knows exactly what it will take for him to return, if the club aren't willing to give him that he won't imho rush back.
And by the club i mean everyone from levy, the board, the players and the fans.
There's no magic wand when it comes to spurs, should poch or another attractive football playing coach come in it will be interesting to see how long those saying they just want good football start clamouring for a trophy.

 

[90291Spur]

I think Poch might have a mobile phone so he won’t be waiting by the one on the book shelf at the bottom of the stairs near the conservatory.