Antonio Conte - officially NOT the coach of THFC

[glasgowspur]

Despite not understanding or agreeing with some of his decisions i can't complain about the job he's done. Especially as the last four managers have all done exactly the same "mistakes".
Maybe they know better than me, sounds unlikely i know but i'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
If he leaves in the summer i won't be glad to see him go, but i won't be sorry either.
He will have left us in a better position than he found us.
I welcomed him in even though long-term i didn't think he was the answer for us.
I believe we will have a relatively sustained period of success and conte will have been an important stepping stone to that success, but i never thought he would be the one that finally got us there.
He's done a decent job in difficult circumstances.
All imv of course.

 

[Gutter Boy]

It is funny that people like to claim the likes of Conte and before him Mourinho are out of date managers, football has moved on etc. Conte has been a manager for 17 years, Poch 15 years so they are very much in that same ‘cycle’.

If you don’t want Conte anymore then fine, but let’s find one of the new crop rather than bring back Poch. Yes will be great singing ‘He’s magic you know’ and he will represent the club splendidly, but the novelty will soon wear off. It was only a year ago that people were enthusiastically singing Contes name and now we are here. It will be no different with Poch, he has done nothing since leaving to show he is the answer and the club hasn’t changed in a significant way to suggest it would work any better with him either…..

Personally I wouldn't mean that out-of-date literally. It's about style. Like calling Rees-Mogg MP for the Nineteenth Century. Mourinho and Conte just play 1980s Wimbledon style. Or even 1930s Catenaccio. It's just like the progressive game of the past 30 years past them by.

 

[MKSpur]

Yep, he meant rogered.

Brendan?

 

[thfcsteff]

When it comes to Frank, one also has to look at how Brentford are set up as a club. They have a highly data-driven, statistical analysis approach to football, and a philosophy that comes more from the club than the coach. They always look for a coach that will fit their model. So you take Frank out of the Brentford environment and you may have a very meh manager.

A very interesting thought, good conversation point. As it is, I think he chances of him are slim. If Paratici sticks around, it feels Garcia will be his pick.

 

[thfcsteff]

I don't think it matters how long someone had been managing. It's more about how they evolve over that time. Which is one of the reasons why I'm so keen on Gallardo, who is a manager that continuously adapts, not just from year to year, but from game to game.

He would be the 'to dare is to do' appointment for me too. I just can't see it, but yes, he'd be fun.

 

[thfcsteff]

(at present) we are above our realistic expected league finish based on financial resources provided. Conte also overachieved in this respect last season.
It would be folly to choose to get rid of him after only 16 months when he is outperforming resources provided.

If, as I suspect, he doesn't want to be here anymore for a variety of reasons, then he needs to leave.

 

[thfcsteff]

My post wasn’t about who is a better manager - it was about Poch having coached during a similar period of time. But regardless, Jose has managed Real Madrid and proved himself there. Poch, well he did ok in a one team league, I don’t exactly see the top clubs falling over themselves to employ him since he’s become a free agent - but don’t tell me, it’s because he told them all he would only ever dream of managing Spurs again?

I look forward to Poch coming back and everytime a bad signing is made it will be the clubs fault and one he never wanted, and everytime he says something ridiculous in the press people on here who obviously know Poch personally will explain why he didn’t actually mean what he said, and go on to explain what he actually meant I have missed that to be fair.

If only Jose and Conte had that luxury when here eh…..

Wow.

This is a balls-out post for sure, you're going for it.

I will try, as I often did during his tenure here (yup, I'm doubtless one of the 'light-out-of-arsers' ) to explain why he was so popular.
1) he brought the club together on and off the pitch
2) he hugely over-achieved
3) he over-achieved whilst the club were 'homeless' for nearly two seasons
4) he never EVER spoke ill of the supporters or talked down to the club. In fact, he spoke UP about the club, always amplifying us.

Jose? Come on. You're even going to mention that mercenary dingdong in the same breath? There is no comparison. Yes, he won loads of trophies in his prime, but he lied to get our job. Obviously. Because despite telling Capt Gullible and his Merry Henchperson that he could 'do much better' with that squad, he didn't. He fudged it. Crashed out of the CL. Injuries? Hahaha. Pochettino got us (somehow) to a CL Final without Kane for ages, ditto crawled over the line into top 4 without Kane, something Mourinho could not do WITH Kane fit. He (IMO) was an arrogant trumper mate, who turned on people and threw people under the bus when he saw he couldn't work within our parameters. I do sympathize with him working in a pandemic, what I would say is we absolutely should've made top 4 regardless by his own definition.

Conte? I was delighted when he came in and loved his work last season. This season he has stalemated. I was one of the few to give him huge slack in Oct/Nov, saying that he had lost (in Ventrone) his consiglieri, and that the loss would be destabilizing. I further speculated that he might have been questioning being away from family. His return post-World Cup showed some sides of him I was (naively?) unprepared for, most notably the ludicrous decision not to listen to doctors. he tried to come back ill, which has to affect the club. Tactically, his refusal to flex from 3-4-3 became very frustrating. Squad-wise, whilst I do not believe he was supported in the way HE expected it, he again said he was very happy with the squad, so on face-value it is his squad mismanagement which has cause cup exists. His situation is complicated for sure, but I'd say when you criticize fans for lack of patience despite not even considering potential ink on an extension, you are engaging in a higher level of hypocrisy than I am comfortable with. Between that and saying his 'success' has proven a 'disadvantage' in this job due to expectations (at 15 mill a year) and it is clear the dance is done and we are all treading water, hoping he does his one game a week winning job and gets us over the line into the CL again.

As for Poch return? My heart would love it, my head agrees that with the current structure it would be the wrong move as it would end in tears.

Offered in the interests of counter-point discussion mate. Hope all's well.

 

[harr1984]

Wow.

This is a balls-out post for sure, you're going for it.

I will try, as I often did during his tenure here (yup, I'm doubtless one of the 'light-out-of-arsers' ) to explain why he was so popular.
1) he brought the club together on and off the pitch
2) he hugely over-achieved
3) he over-achieved whilst the club were 'homeless' for nearly two seasons
4) he never EVER spoke ill of the supporters or talked down to the club. In fact, he spoke UP about the club, always amplifying us.

Jose? Come on. You're even going to mention that mercenary dingdong in the same breath? There is no comparison. Yes, he won loads of trophies in his prime, but he lied to get our job. Obviously. Because despite telling Capt Gullible and his Merry Henchperson that he could 'do much better' with that squad, he didn't. He fudged it. Crashed out of the CL. Injuries? Hahaha. Pochettino got us (somehow) to a CL Final without Kane for ages, ditto crawled over the line into top 4 without Kane, something Mourinho could not do WITH Kane fit. He (IMO) was an arrogant trumper mate, who turned on people and threw people under the bus when he saw he couldn't work within our parameters. I do sympathize with him working in a pandemic, what I would say is we absolutely should've made top 4 regardless by his own definition.

Conte? I was delighted when he came in and loved his work last season. This season he has stalemated. I was one of the few to give him huge slack in Oct/Nov, saying that he had lost (in Ventrone) his consiglieri, and that the loss would be destabilizing. I further speculated that he might have been questioning being away from family. His return post-World Cup showed some sides of him I was (naively?) unprepared for, most notably the ludicrous decision not to listen to doctors. he tried to come back ill, which has to affect the club. Tactically, his refusal to flex from 3-4-3 became very frustrating. Squad-wise, whilst I do not believe he was supported in the way HE expected it, he again said he was very happy with the squad, so on face-value it is his squad mismanagement which has cause cup exists. His situation is complicated for sure, but I'd say when you criticize fans for lack of patience despite not even considering potential ink on an extension, you are engaging in a higher level of hypocrisy than I am comfortable with. Between that and saying his 'success' has proven a 'disadvantage' in this job due to expectations (at 15 mill a year) and it is clear the dance is done and we are all treading water, hoping he does his one game a week winning job and gets us over the line into the CL again.

As for Poch return? My heart would love it, my head agrees that with the current structure it would be the wrong move as it would end in tears.

Offered in the interests of counter-point discussion mate. Hope all's well.

Steff, I know your feelings on all managers mentioned perfectly well and they are all fair opinions. There isn’t really much to counter argue and you might of misjudged what I was saying with the bit you was bolded. I was specifically referring to when Conte and Jose said something in the media, posters here are all too happy to take their comments at face value and beat them up over it. Whereas Poch came out with some to be polite, some strange comments yet certain posters would go out of their way to make excuses for it and bizarrely insist he didn’t mean what he was saying and it meant something else really

I mentioned in a previous post he would represent us fantastically, and I’ve said if not in this thread then elsewhere on this forum that the team he created was the best Spurs team I’ve seen and was a travesty of justice we didn’t win anything. He has nothing but my gratitude and respect for what he did here.

But do I think him returning is the answer? I don’t think it is the right move to make. But what the hell do I know, and I wouldn’t exactly be disappointed if he does come back…..

 

[harr1984]

If, as I suspect, he doesn't want to be here anymore for a variety of reasons, then he needs to leave.

Do you watch Conte cam? Against Forest he was celebrating each of the goals as passionately as I’ve seen him for some time. That was not the look of a manager who has lost interest or is looking to get sacked as has been claimed on here….

 

[thfcsteff]

Do you watch Conte cam? Against Forest he was celebrating each of the goals as passionately as I’ve seen him for some time. That was not the look of a manager who has lost interest or is looking to get sacked as has been claimed on here….

I do watch it mate. I believe he is invested in 'him' more than 'us' art this point. I feel sympathy for him as a human being, again, been very clear on that. But his joy (IMO) is purely tethered to -
a) knowing a top 4 finish will ease him into a bigger job
b) bonuses

Whatever it takes, great, here's to supporting what he does to get us across the line. But I do not think he is committed to the club itself in any sense beyond contract. He does have undeniable pride and I am grateful for that.

 

[thfcsteff]

Steff, I know your feelings on all managers mentioned perfectly well and they are all fair opinions. There isn’t really much to counter argue and you might of misjudged what I was saying with the bit you was bolded. I was specifically referring to when Conte and Jose said something in the media, posters here are all too happy to take their comments at face value and beat them up over it. Whereas Poch came out with some to be polite, some strange comments yet certain posters would go out of their way to make excuses for it and bizarrely insist he didn’t mean what he was saying and it meant something else really

I mentioned in a previous post he would represent us fantastically, and I’ve said if not in this thread then elsewhere on this forum that the team he created was the best Spurs team I’ve seen and was a travesty of justice we didn’t win anything. He has nothing but my gratitude and respect for what he did here.

But do I think him returning is the answer? I don’t think it is the right move to make. But what the hell do I know, and I wouldn’t exactly be disappointed if he does come back…..

Again, as much as my heart hates it, I agree with you!

 

[P.D.]

A very interesting thought, good conversation point. As it is, I think he chances of him are slim. If Paratici sticks around, it feels Garcia will be his pick.

Do you mean Rudi Garcia? If so then what a poor choice, not a terrible manager going on his record but nothing special.

 

[alekaras]

He would be the 'to dare is to do' appointment for me too. I just can't see it, but yes, he'd be fun.

I think beyond just being fun, he'd be a unifying figure in the club, much like Poch was.

 

[glasgowspur]

I do watch it mate. I believe he is invested in 'him' more than 'us' art this point. I feel sympathy for him as a human being, again, been very clear on that. But his joy (IMO) is purely tethered to -
a) knowing a top 4 finish will ease him into a bigger job
b) bonuses

Whatever it takes, great, here's to supporting what he does to get us across the line. But I do not think he is committed to the club itself in any sense beyond contract. He does have undeniable pride and I am grateful for that.

I think he just loves to win, hates to lose.
No doubt he will see it as mainly his victory, but there will be some joy for the team and club in there.

 

[Robspur12]

If you look at it strictly from our position in the table, you may have a point. But table position doesn't always tell you how well a team is performing relative to how it should perform and is actually performing. There are some pretty elaborate statistical models that allow you to track this, but I will just post a simplified one from understat.com. This alone doesn't give you the whole picture, but if you add more data points I think it will probably validate it. We are 7th in xPts having played two more games than Brentford. I wouldn't call this outperforming. Brighton, Brentford, and Saudi Sportswashing Machine are outperforming. We're not.

View attachment 15287

Just watching our games and ignoring the stats, it doesn't feel like we are over achieving.

 

[Raziel]

As for Poch return? My heart would love it, my head agrees that with the current structure it would be the wrong move as it would end in tears.

Offered in the interests of counter-point discussion mate. Hope all's well.

? not sure what you are referencing here?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Just watching our games and ignoring the stats, it doesn't feel like we are over achieving.

Does anyone still do that? I definitely zoned out in October, and went full coma around mid-January

 

[Raziel]

Does anyone still do that? I definitely zoned out in October, and went full coma around mid-January

hahaha, some of still retain a certain level of self hate, so we pay to go watch it in person

 

[parklane1]

Just watching our games and ignoring the stats, it doesn't feel like we are over achieving.

Stats are useful to a point but they are those who swear by them and use them to try and make a point and they do not always show the real truth.. ( the stats i mean)

 

[alekaras]

Stats are useful to a point but they are those who swear by them and use them to try and make a point and they do not always show the real truth.. ( the stats i mean)

I think you will see stats and analytics play an ever more important role in football. There is a ton of data and, once teams figure out the right way to analyze it, it will probably show more truth than what the naked eye sees in a game. Not in one individual game (even though that could be possible too as analytics evolve), but over a period of games. I'm posting a bit from a 2017 article about Brentford, who are an extremely well-managed team and heavily reliant on stats and analytics, which I think points to what the future of football will be. Spurs sorely need as good an analytics dept as Brentford. And since we're talking about how we feel Conte has underachieved, I'm underlining below a passage that I found really interesting, but that makes a lot of sense.

Brentford measures success differently, not by the league table, but by Ankersen's "table of justice," a variant of the expected goals model. This is informed by the belief that, because football is such a low-scoring sport—the average game has 2.7 goals, compared to over 200 points in basketball—luck is very important. As The Numbers Game notes, favourites win only 65 percent of football matches but 80 percent of basketball games.

Brentford have the confidence to take a long-term view and not allow football's inherent randomness to cloud the club's analysis.

"We don't look so much at the league table position when we evaluate performance. What we look at are the underlying metrics, which we believe are a better indication of where we are going and how we've done," Ankersen says. "We know how we measure performance; we don't overreact to those swings in results that you see that's largely down to randomness, which you see in football because it's a low-scoring sport.

"Telling people that the league table lies is like telling people that the earth is flat. All their preconceptions are being challenged, and the media won't accept it because they rely on having tragedies and triumphs, so it's a difficult thing to say—especially when you are underachieving."

But Brentford do not merely use the "table of justice" as an excuse. In 2015, Mark Warburton was not offered a new contract as manager after Brentford came fifth. The club believed the team had been lucky, that their performances had not merited such impressive results. Warburton was also less enamoured with analytics than other senior figures.