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Another shooting in Murica

scaramanga said:
Always the other lot, huh?

Is it really that hard to accept that there's a scummy underclass that had been looking to riot for years. Add that to a bunch of millennials desperate to be more outraged than the rest of the next one and you have a perfect excuse.
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Richard II said the same thing about Wat Tyler and his mob back in 1381. Some things never change.
 
scaramanga said:
You're right.

The data show that you're more likely to have an encounter with the police turn violent if you're white or Hispanic.
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"The data" you have an almost religious belief in is about as conclusive as "the data" drug companies used to tell doctors that opiate-like pain killers were not addictive. Sure you can cherry-pick studies that back your argument, but look at the reality, and look a wider selection of studies and the picture is quite different. Selecting a study to suit your belief is a bias in itself. Here is a more rounded picture of the "the data" https://journalistsresource.org/stu...-justice/deaths-police-custody-united-states/
 
Rorschach said:
Biden's fine. I agree he was not the best option from one perspective, a progressive one mostly, and even though I'm a leftie nor was Sanders IMO. I like Sanders but this was not his time either for rather different reasons. Biden is exactly what America needs right now IMO. A good empathetic man who will try and bring America back together again, back from the brink really. This is a nearly impossible task but it needs to be attempted none the less.
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Really?!
Have you been on the sauce?
The only place Biden is going soon is to the undertakers.

The choice America has is between a dumb president or a zombie. Choose one
 
SpurMeUp said:
"The data" you have an almost religious belief in is about as conclusive as "the data" drug companies used to tell doctors that opiate-like pain killers were not addictive. Sure you can cherry-pick studies that back your argument, but look at the reality, and look a wider selection of studies and the picture is quite different. Selecting a study to suit your belief is a bias in itself. Here is a more rounded picture of the "the data" https://journalistsresource.org/stu...-justice/deaths-police-custody-united-states/
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Again, none of those studies deal with the fact that US police have to deal with black men significantly more than any other race.

You can't point at non-normalised data and show a pattern - it's worthless until normalised.
 
scaramanga said:
Always the other lot, huh?

Is it really that hard to accept that there's a scummy underclass that had been looking to riot for years. Add that to a bunch of millennials desperate to be more outraged than the rest of the next one and you have a perfect excuse.
Click to expand...

OK. Sigh...
 
scaramanga said:
Again, none of those studies deal with the fact that US police have to deal with black men significantly more than any other race.

You can't point at non-normalised data and show a pattern - it's worthless until normalised.
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You just don't get it. Quite amusing in a sense...
 
scaramanga said:
Again, none of those studies deal with the fact that US police have to deal with black men significantly more than any other race.

You can't point at non-normalised data and show a pattern - it's worthless until normalised.
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Yet you have claimed the data does show a pattern. :confused:

Rodney King was beaten up 30 years ago. Cameras were less prevalent, but by chance this one beating of a black man by US police was captured. For every instance like this last century what ratio was recorded? How many injustices like this do you think occurred?

Not so long ago this year we saw a women threaten a guy she had a disagreement with by saying she'd call the police and tell them she was being harassed by an African American. Why? What was the implicit threat? It is simple, there is an acceptance that as a black man, you may not get fair treatment at the hands of US cops. Black families in the US talk about how they have 'the talk' with their kids - if you get stopped, keep your hands visible, do what the man says. In the UK, a vastly different better place, the stats on prison population and deaths in police custody are not great either. And we do record acurate data. The fact the US does not, tells its own story.
 
SpurMeUp said:
Yet you have claimed the data does show a pattern. :confused:

Rodney King was beaten up 30 years ago. Cameras were less prevalent, but by chance this one beating of a black man by US police was captured. For every instance like this last century what ratio was recorded? How many injustices like this do you think occurred?

Not so long ago this year we saw a women threaten a guy she had a disagreement with by saying she'd call the police and tell them she was being harassed by an African American. Why? What was the implicit threat? It is simple, there is an acceptance that as a black man, you may not get fair treatment at the hands of US cops. Black families in the US talk about how they have 'the talk' with their kids - if you get stopped, keep your hands visible, do what the man says. In the UK, a vastly different better place, the stats on prison population and deaths in police custody are not great either. And we do record acurate data. The fact the US does not, tells its own story.
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Not the non-normalised data you're trying to use.

Take the number of stops, arrests etc by race. Divide that number by how many turn violent. That's how you reach a representative number.

When you just look at the numbers raw as you're trying to do, it doesn't give anything like a representative view. If all arrests, crimes, interactions, etc were split evenly across all races then that wouldn't be an issue.

Taking an overly simplistic view of the data and then complaining they are not sufficient is disingenuous at best.
 
scaramanga said:
Not the non-normalised data you're trying to use.

Take the number of stops, arrests etc by race. Divide that number by how many turn violent. That's how you reach a representative number.

When you just look at the numbers raw as you're trying to do, it doesn't give anything like a representative view. If all arrests, crimes, interactions, etc were split evenly across all races then that wouldn't be an issue.

Taking an overly simplistic view of the data and then complaining they are not sufficient is disingenuous at best.
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Data by its very nature is over simplistic. It gives clues but misrepresentation is rife as with drug companies. You can chose what you wish to prove, as you did. Is the violence that is more likely with white people being stopped by police (your stat to show there isn’t an issue) perpetrated by the white person being stoped? In other words white people probably feel safer, that they won’t get shot. Hence more resistance and violence. What does your stat really show?

BLM is more than a protest against police violence and racism, it’s about not having similar opportunities in the US. About still having the legacy of slavery there holding people back. About stereotyping, and not giving everyone the same treatment.

Let me ask you: is the UK police a step up from the US in terms of race relations?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
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SpurMeUp said:
Data by its very nature is over simplistic. It gives clues but misrepresentation is rife as with drug companies. You can chose what you wish to prove, as you did. Is the violence that is more likely with white people being stopped by police (your stat to show there isn’t an issue) perpetrated by the white person being stoped? In other words white people probably feel safer, that they won’t get shot. Hence more resistance and violence. What does your stat really show?

BLM is more than a protest against police violence and racism, it’s about not having similar opportunities in the US. About still having the legacy of slavery there holding people back. About stereotyping, and not giving everyone the same treatment.

Let me ask you: is the UK police a step up from the US in terms of race relations?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
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UK police don't have the same issues as class isn't nearly as clearly split along racial lines like it is in the US.

And data are always raw. It's interpretation that makes them valuable and that's where you're falling over.
 
scaramanga said:
UK police don't have the same issues as class isn't nearly as clearly split along racial lines like it is in the US.

And data are always raw. It's interpretation that makes them valuable and that's where you're falling over.
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It’s so obvious where I and half the world are falling over, you couldn’t bring yourself to point it out? [emoji23]

I agree we and the police have it a lot easier in the UK for all manner of complex sociological reasons. Yet the Stephen Lawrence government enquiry found our police to have pockets of institutional racism. Are you really going to tell me that in the land of the red neck the US doesn’t or didn’t have any institutional racism in the police force?

Moreover you dismiss the linked stats that compare white hispanic peoples with black Hispanic peoples in the US. It shows that skin pigmentation statistically increases your likelihood of being shot by police.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
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scaramanga said:
No, I really do.

I'm simply able to make my mind up without clouding it with emotion.
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No Scara, it has nothing to do with emotion, and frankly, your dismissive and gas-lit-tinged use of "emotion" here is insulting and again, wrong.
Next you'll say that my love of Pochettino is proof my perspective cannot be trusted...

You "should" read this. Wise up. It will help you understand further what is going on. Only fools allow history to repeat itself in this way without question.

https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/deceiving-the-public
 
scaramanga said:
Not the non-normalised data you're trying to use.

Take the number of stops, arrests etc by race. Divide that number by how many turn violent. That's how you reach a representative number.

When you just look at the numbers raw as you're trying to do, it doesn't give anything like a representative view. If all arrests, crimes, interactions, etc were split evenly across all races then that wouldn't be an issue.

Taking an overly simplistic view of the data and then complaining they are not sufficient is disingenuous at best.
Click to expand...

Take a cup of your own medicine.
Who's numbers are you drawing from? Who's numbers do you trust? Yes, an very simplistic view of date is disingenuous, because by the mere nature of data collection, there will only be a certain percentage of accuracy.
The problem I have with your banging on about your stats is that it is all you ever have. Stats. You offer nothing else, thus I am left to conclude that you make tour deductions on matters based only on stats. In which case I am fast-wondering if you are some sort of Philip K dingdong cyber-construct, along the lines of Hal 9000 but a little less flexible.
 
SpurMeUp said:
It’s so obvious where I and half the world are falling over, you couldn’t bring yourself to point it out? [emoji23]
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I have pointed it out. At least 3 times in this thread in the space of a week, including one direct response to you.

SpurMeUp said:
I agree we and the police have it a lot easier in the UK for all manner of complex sociological reasons. Yet the Stephen Lawrence government enquiry found our police to have pockets of institutional racism. Are you really going to tell me that in the land of the red neck the US doesn’t or didn’t have any institutional racism in the police force?
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Of course, in any group that large there will be some racists, as in any other large group. That doesn't nearly justify rioting and looting though.

SpurMeUp said:
Moreover you dismiss the linked stats that compare white hispanic peoples with black Hispanic peoples in the US. It shows that skin pigmentation statistically increases your likelihood of being shot by police.
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Again, because those numbers are per capita, not per interaction. Therefore not taking into account any disparity in numbers of interactions with the police.
 
thfcsteff said:
Take a cup of your own medicine.
Who's numbers are you drawing from? Who's numbers do you trust? Yes, an very simplistic view of date is disingenuous, because by the mere nature of data collection, there will only be a certain percentage of accuracy.
The problem I have with your banging on about your stats is that it is all you ever have. Stats. You offer nothing else, thus I am left to conclude that you make tour deductions on matters based only on stats. In which case I am fast-wondering if you are some sort of Philip K dingdong cyber-construct, along the lines of Hal 9000 but a little less flexible.
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The best data available are those I linked in the Harvard study.

Obviously they're not perfect, and far more work needs doing on reporting. But that's a million miles from evidence of racism.

Oh, and the thing you're looking for that I don't have is anecdotal evidence - also know as no evidence whatsoever.
 
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