Ange in or out?

[fernadez]

This goes back to the question I think Ange critics should be asking, which is how much did the club not do/not correct/did not know how to do with regards to the root and branch change they wanted in summer 2023 versus how to do it. I'd like to think everyone has learned an awful lot these past two seasons. Some seem afraid we'll just keep making the same mistakes. I suppose it comes down to what you hope/believe?

He said he does it at every club he's been at. The club backed him is the way I see it.

He believed he could do it his way, the last two years I hope has shown him differently.

 

[Gutter Boy]

With the same consistent line-up? With the same core players regularly playing?

What can I say? I'd take the gamble for all the reasons I've offered tenfold over several threads, I believe a combination of factors mean we will never ever have even close to as bad a league season again, you don't and are absolutely insistant that we are on a negative trajectory thus he should be canned.
We're locked in.

I've also stated that I think they'll move him on anyway and are just waiting for 'vibes fc' to die down. We'll all see soon enough.

I do not think that even if Paratici can silver tongue his way to getting Inzaghi that he would be a panacea in any way whatsoever.

But it was him breaking the players through tactics demanding unsmart running, poor response to medical advice, and not rotating players enough.

Im not completely sold on Inzaghi (i hate 3 CBs), but i do think any competent manager will have us straight back at our par 5th as minimum.

 

[Raziel]

With the same consistent line-up? With the same core players regularly playing?

What can I say? I'd take the gamble for all the reasons I've offered tenfold over several threads, I believe a combination of factors mean we will never ever have even close to as bad a league season again, you don't and are absolutely insistant that we are on a negative trajectory thus he should be canned.
We're locked in.

I've also stated that I think they'll move him on anyway and are just waiting for 'vibes fc' to die down. We'll all see soon enough.

I do not think that even if Paratici can silver tongue his way to getting Inzaghi that he would be a panacea in any way whatsoever.

Do you believe that or just devil's advocate there?

For me, as I've said, if he had come 12th this season with all the caveats, I'd be supportive of him staying. 12th you can buy the caveats a little more, the injuries, the squad imbalance, 17th and 22 losses, doesn't just feel like off season, feels like we are fundamentally doing something wrong.

I'm not sure re Inzaghi or whoever not being the answer, look at Wolves, a non heralded manager has basically took a side that looked like the other bottom 3 (i.e. dead and buried) and made it competitive. We have a side that finished 5th last year, 4th three years ago. The side that came 5th, added Kinsky, Danso, Spence (Wasn't playing), Gray, Bergvall, Wilson, Solanke to it, and somehow got worse.

Genuinely I think this side plus the inevitable incoming in summer, with a decent (not elite) manager should make top 6 in the PL, top 4 will depend on quality of manager, how quickly they get there system across and somewhat form of other top teams.

Do you or anyone actually think Ange makes top 6 next season?

 

[thfcsteff]

Do you believe that or just devil's advocate there?

Sorry? I don't understand.

For me, as I've said, if he had come 12th this season with all the caveats, I'd be supportive of him staying. 12th you can buy the caveats a little more, the injuries, the squad imbalance, 17th and 22 losses, doesn't just feel like off season, feels like we are fundamentally doing something wrong.

Yet we also ended up doing something incredibly right. It has been an utterly bizarre season with many, many caveats. I have ardently supporterd this club for 50 of my 58 years and I have never, ever seen a season like this. No Spurs supporter has.

I'm not sure re Inzaghi or whoever not being the answer, look at Wolves, a non heralded manager has basically took a side that looked like the other bottom 3 (i.e. dead and buried) and made it competitive. We have a side that finished 5th last year, 4th three years ago. The side that came 5th, added Kinsky, Danso, Spence (Wasn't playing), Gray, Bergvall, Wilson, Solanke to it, and somehow got worse.

We're back to injuries again IMO...

Genuinely I think this side plus the inevitable incoming in summer, with a decent (not elite) manager should make top 6 in the PL, top 4 will depend on quality of manager, how quickly they get there system across and somewhat form of other top teams.

Do you or anyone actually think Ange makes top 6 next season?

If I didn't think this group, after this experience and with the buy-ins and board support, could achieve a CL position again via the league and win more trophies, then I'd be happy to say goodbye. So yes. I do.

 

[Gutter Boy]

If I didn't think this group, after this experience and with the buy-ins and board support, could achieve a CL position again via the league and win more trophies, then I'd be happy to say goodbye. So yes. I do.

What turns his 1 point per game average over his last 50 games, to a 2 point per game average over his next 38? That's an inconceivable turnaround

 

[thfcsteff]

What turns his 1 point per game average over his last 50 games, to a 2 point per game average over his next 38? That's an inconceivable turnaround

A proper close-season/pre-season with no massive international tournaments draining the summer from players.

A refreshed and revamped fitness/conditioning staff.

A refreshed coaching staff.

A more moderate approach to the transfer work with regards to investment vs experience.

Hopefully a higher level of both fitness/consistent line-ups and quality in reserve (which we will naturally have given how many players this season were forced to grow up very quickly)

The buy-in/belief that winning a major trophy brings.

Those would be a few things. I'd also hope that whatever he has learnt gets applied to his own work.

I appreciate this opinion does not work for everyone, and as I have consistently said, I see the other side. However I think it is important to reciognmise there is a dialectic here. It is not black and white.

 

[DTA]

A proper close-season/pre-season with no massive international tournaments draining the summer from players.

A refreshed and revamped fitness/conditioning staff.

A refreshed coaching staff.

A more moderate approach to the transfer work with regards to investment vs experience.

Hopefully a higher level of both fitness/consistent line-ups and quality in reserve (which we will naturally have given how many players this season were forced to grow up very quickly)

The buy-in/belief that winning a major trophy brings.

Those would be a few things. I'd also hope that whatever he has learnt gets applied to his own work.

I appreciate this opinion does not work for everyone, and as I have consistently said, I see the other side. However I think it is important to reciognmise there is a dialectic here. It is not black and white.

What about Ange’s system makes you believe that it can be successful in the Prem?

I’m talking about purely from a tactical perspective

 

[thfcsteff]

What about Ange’s system makes you believe that it can be successful in the Prem?

I think we will see modifications of it the actual 'system' whilst still deploying the 'philosophy' of playing attacking, entertaining football. I think we'll continue to see the inverted FBs not being quite as aggressive, or being aggressive one at a time in the future. I think being able to maintain the overall power and footballing momentum of the side with good subs will help.


EDIT: I only just saw the tactical perspctive comment.
I think there will be an extra level of belief and focus which comes when a young squad grows through hard times and achieves a major trophy.

One side point. For me, the second 45 minutes at Brighton were the worst of the season, and showed how much growing up we had to do. Our attitude was unbelievable. We were a disgrace second-half, total disgrace.

 

[billyiddo]

He said he does it at every club he's been at. The club backed him is the way I see it.

He believed he could do it his way, the last two years I hope has shown him differently.

Yeah It's very much his choice to work that way from what I can gather, probably a bit of naivety having seen it work throughout his career in less ruthless environments. With that in mind i can't see how the coaches who make up his team can be anything other than his responsibility given that is how he chooses to work. Maybe this is an area of the setup he thinks he needs to improve going in to next season? I don't think the club would stand in his way from appointing x y or z - coach contracts would be chump change in the grand scheme of things I'd have thought

 

[Raziel]

A proper close-season/pre-season with no massive international tournaments draining the summer from players.

A refreshed and revamped fitness/conditioning staff.

A refreshed coaching staff.

A more moderate approach to the transfer work with regards to investment vs experience.

Hopefully a higher level of both fitness/consistent line-ups and quality in reserve (which we will naturally have given how many players this season were forced to grow up very quickly)

The buy-in/belief that winning a major trophy brings.

Those would be a few things. I'd also hope that whatever he has learnt gets applied to his own work.

I appreciate this opinion does not work for everyone, and as I have consistently said, I see the other side. However I think it is important to reciognmise there is a dialectic here. It is not black and white.

It's not black and white, and football never is, it's a business and has a lot of those rules but some of the intangibles that sports brings as well.

I guess my question is, lets assume you are a right, Ange could turn this around (to @Gutter Boy's point, it would be a massive turnaround) with all those things you mentioned, or .. you could hire a coach that potentially already has those attributes (brings senior coaching side, show ability to manage player workloads, little bit less tactically naïve, etc), what is the less risk approach, sticking with Ange or betting on change?

 

[thfcsteff]

It's not black and white, and football never is, it's a business and has a lot of those rules but some of the intangibles that sports brings as well.

I guess my question is, lets assume you are a right, Ange could turn this around (to @Gutter Boy's point, it would be a massive turnaround) with all those things you mentioned, or .. you could hire a coach that potentially already has those attributes (brings senior coaching side, show ability to manage player workloads, little bit less tactically naïve, etc), what is the less risk approach, sticking with Ange or betting on change?

That is the question for which there is no clear answer. Probably won't stop us trying though LOL!

Personally, as I have I think articulated clearly, as long as all the lessons across the board from this past season have been absorbed and learned from, I think the turnaround is far easier and quicker than it might appear.

 

[Baleforce]

I think the flaw in your argument there is expecting Levy to have that conversation. Ange would tie him up in knots if a real detailed football conversation ensued. Levy needs to play his role and stay out of it. I'd be interested to hear views from someone like Lange who has worked in a coaching capacity. Fabio always struck me as being a real football person as well. Not sure about Munn, but clearly Ange reports to him. He is the one that needs to coordinate that conversation leveraging other members of that leadership team. The new CEO might just be c-level but could also be a football DNA guy as well. Not sure he's even really got his feet under the desk yet though.

Nah, Levy has been running one of the biggest and most successful pro organisations in the sport for over 20 years.

Ange landed on his feet in real football two years ago.

This “football man” stuff is nonsense.

 

[DTA]

I think we will see modifications of it the actual 'system' whilst still deploying the 'philosophy' of playing attacking, entertaining football. I think we'll continue to see the inverted FBs not being quite as aggressive, or being aggressive one at a time in the future. I think being able to maintain the overall power and footballing momentum of the side with good subs will help.


EDIT: I only just saw the tactical perspctive comment.
I think there will be an extra level of belief and focus which comes when a young squad grows through hard times and achieves a major trophy.

One side point. For me, the second 45 minutes at Brighton were the worst of the season, and showed how much growing up we had to do. Our attitude was unbelievable. We were a disgrace second-half, total disgrace.

The hung over game against Brighton or the one before?

I’m guessing the game before right? But that’s on Ange… surely you see that? Their manager made some smart adjustments and Ange just kept us playing the same way until it was too late.

Edit: I was still firmly Ange in at that time (was until leister) but thinking back that was probably the beginning of the end.

 

[thfcsteff]

The hung over game against Brighton or the one before?

I’m guessing the game before right? But that’s on Ange… surely you see that? Their manager made some smart adjustments and Ange just kept us playing the same way until it was too late.

Edit: I was still firmly Ange in at that time (was until leister) but thinking back that was probably the beginning of the end.

The one before.
I don't believe it was on Ange. Obviously he has to have played a part, however we went into that second-half, and for most of it, with the worst attitude I have seen from us all season. Anyhow, it's clear we disagree. All good.

 

[DTA]

The one before.
I don't believe it was on Ange. Obviously he has to have played a part, however we went into that second-half, and for most of it, with the worst attitude I have seen from us all season. Anyhow, it's clear we disagree. All good.

Really, out of interest could you tell me what the tactical adjustments their manger made? And how Ange adjusted to them? Because if it wasn’t on him then he would have adjusted before we conceded 3 goals right?

 

[thfcsteff]

Really, out of interest could you tell me what the tactical adjustments their manger made? And how Ange adjusted to them? Because if it wasn’t on him then he would have adjusted before we conceded 3 goals right?

Would you consider the first goal we conceded -right after HT- the result of Brighton's tactical genius or us being sloppy? From that moment on, we simply froze.
You're the person who spoke about tactical adjustments, when the 'smart adjustments' he made were telling his players to be more physical and hungry in terms of their energy and winning the ball, plus replacing a full back having a bad game with Estupian who's a really decent player and made them a little more solid. Again, we didn't show up and match that fight. You can question no subs til too late. I blame the players that day.

 

[demotw]

Ultimately, at least for me, do I think giving Ange 6 months to show what he can do without all the injuries issues will impact us more then the upheaval of sacking a trophy winning manager who the squad clearly love and having to start from scratch.

I would rather give him the 6 months, because it won’t really make a difference to spurs in the grand scheme of things, and not one person can guarantee anyone new coming in could actually utilise this squad more. If he fails, he can go with my gratitude for winning a trophy but if he succeeds, then finally we can put an end to this damn manager merry go round that everyone apparently hates, yet seem to ask for the second things get hard.

 

[DTA]

Would you consider the first goal we conceded -right after HT- the result of Brighton's tactical genius or us being sloppy? From that moment on, we simply froze.
You're the person who spoke about tactical adjustments, when the 'smart adjustments' he made were telling his players to be more physical and hungry in terms of their energy and winning the ball, plus replacing a full back having a bad game with Estupian who's a really decent player and made them a little more solid. Again, we didn't show up and match that fight. You can question no subs til too late. I blame the players that day.

I’m not being a díck here I promise. please go back and watch the game. It’s obvious that you don’t remember what their tactical changes were.

I genuinely want to have a proper tactical discussion about Ange. Because ultimately I think that’s where he has fallen short.

Cards on the table I think with the Europa cup win, he has earned the right to have meeting with management.

And I do think he is a very good man manager… which is huge. But tactically in the prem he has been shown up.

Maybe the answer is to get someone in directly under him that will implement their own tactical system and coaching and use him as a motivational man manager. I really thing that could work if we get someone in that’s really good.

And if that happens… I would be over the moon. Because I like him, I love his story, I relate to his story. And he has given me one of of the best moments of my spurs supporting life.

But I have serious worries about us next season if we go I with him implementing a completely found out system that he is too slow to change.

 

[thfcsteff]

I’m not being a díck here I promise. please go back and watch the game. It’s obvious that you don’t remember what their tactical changes were.

I'd be delighted for you to tell me. I remember the game well.
Maybe I missed something.
Hurzler himself stated that the biggest difference was the level of application in his initial plan. Estupian 'could' be considered a 'tactical' change. I'd consider it replacing an inferior player with a better one.
I remember being absolutely shocked at how suddenly, in the very same patterns the game had shown first-half, we were so flat.
Tell mew this; do you remember us playing ewith the same zip, urgency and (most importantly) desire we showed in the first-half?

I genuinely want to have a proper tactical discussion about Ange. Because ultimately I think that’s where he has fallen short.

This discussion has been all over this forum as you know. I assume you believe that he is out of his depth. I also assume that you do not like the high-line + high inverted FBs. I also assume you do not like the reliance we have on speed/pace in defensive transitions to make up for the areas we principly get caught (in behind where the FBs have vacated and the midfield has not adequetely covere or is imbalanced due to two no natural or double pivot structure. All good. I get it. I personally was relieved when he stopped sending the FBs so high all the time in early March, and I did wish he'd been more pragmatic in Jan/Feb when the injuries were frankly immense. I saw plenty of times this season (like last) where the football was wonderful, great moves executed, and great goals scored. I equally saw some of the worst errors/ratio of individual mistakes, I've ever seen in a season. Ultimately though, I think it's impossible to accurately evaluate due to the circumtances around him/injuries, which robbed us of any pattern of consistency even in the ability to rotate.
Me?
I'd like us to be a 4-2-3-1 or a 3-5-2.
I think 4-3-3 requires very elite players and/or players confidently bedded into that system.

Cards on the table I think with the Europa cup win, he has earned the right to have meeting with management.

And I do think he is a very good man manager… which is huge. But tactically in the prem he has been shown up.

I am not sure 'shown up' is the phrase. Such suggestions make me wonder if people genuinely believe that the entire club would've let a naive manager who is being shown up remain in his job if that were the case?

Maybe the answer is to get someone in directly under him that will implement their own tactical system and coaching and use him as a motivational man manager. I really thing that could work if we get someone in that’s really good.

That won't work.

And if that happens… I would be over the moon. Because I like him, I love his story, I relate to his story. And he has given me one of of the best moments of my spurs supporting life.

But I have serious worries about us next season if we go I with him implementing a completely found out system that he is too slow to change.

You have the same fears that many here have. I don't have them to anything like that degree, partially because I believe some things will have changed as a consequence of this season.

As I have also said, I (sadly) feel this is all wasted 'fret' and 'fro' because I believe they are waiting for the emotional clouds to part before they announce his sacking (in a very nice way)...

 

[tommysvr]

Lets be honest, if Mourinho, Poch or Conte had took the Europa league seriously and put out a strong squad in the knock out stages they would have won this trophy aswell. In the same situation all 3 of those above also win this seasons Europa league. We had a pretty straight forward knockout stages and beat teams we should have beaten.

I’m not knocking the achievement and i get its the first thing we have won for ages but lets not make out that it was next to impossible to win.

…but they didn’t.