Ange in or out?

[Grays_1890]

So your basing your decision on whether to sack him off of the media reaction. That's truly pathetic mate, Levy needs to do his job and actually grow the football side of the club and you can't do that with this manager in charge.

The clever clubs don't keep a manager who losses 19 league games. Hell even relegated teams don't keep their managers.

Its not about just media reaction

The reputation around Spurs has weighed heavy on this club for 30+ years, anyone that says it hasn't is lying. That's dead in the water now.

Sacking a manager who has won a trophy revives that reputation and goes back to weigh heavy on not only us but for who comes next. The messaging to the footballing world would be mixed at best

 

[tommysvr]

I think your insane. I'm glad we won but we beat the poorest Man u side in living memory and the other teams we beat on the way to the final were no better.

If he stays that Europa win will cost us far more then it gave us because he would complete the job and get us relegated.

He has proven over the last year and a half he can not manage in the premiership. I get he is a fellow Australian and managed in Japan where you live but take that out and just look at the results and how we have played. Take out the personal liking you have for the man, he simply is not good enough.

I enjoyed last night, but I despise him and his arrogance and what he has put us through the last year and a half.

I understand why you feel like that based on the league performances. I definitely don't agree with your take on the cup -- winning anything is difficult, as we've found out. I think we've suddenly got a lot of momentum, the players are clearly behind him and he deserves the chance. But other than that and what I've said before, I don't have much to add. I'm just going to enjoy the moment for a bit.

 

[LutonSpurs]

The only momentum we've got is towards the championship. He's been an absolute car crash of an appointment. If he survives this month, he'll be gone by the first international break in September and we'll be in interim land again.

The only thing that's changed is we'll phrase his compromise agreement more in the realms of mutually agreed/end of a journey etc.

This is my view on what happens.

If we can get the right appointment in for the summer then maybe. Paratici being back will change things

 

[Mr Gogolak]

Personally, I think making decisions when emotions are at their highest is not a very wise move. I intend to ride on that all-too-rare feeling at least until the Brighton game. Whether he walks away, he's sacked or he is allowed to continue, it's not our decision to make anyway. There will always be plenty of time to argue later on!

 

[carl]

Just listened to part of his post match interview and he said "People bang on about the 20 league defeats but theyre missing the point of what were trying to build here".

So lets say he has sacrificed the league to win the the cup. Does that justify 21 league defeats and finishing 17th? Arsenal got to 2 Semi finals and finished 2nd (with a load of injuries too). Villa went deep in 2 competitions and theyre league position hasnt suffered. Why is it acceptable for us to have such a bad league campaign and did it need to be that bad?

On top of that he says he plays different in cup football. Surely if the cup system works (results wise) but the league system doesnt, youd go with your cup system? Isnt football about winning games?

I just feel that now that is going to be a convenient excuse. I also dont agree with the comments regarding how bad a look it would be if we got rid of him now. Who cares what it looks like? Will look a lot worse next season if were struggling by November and have Mason in charge.

Over the moon weve won, had a bbq with 14 family members and watched us lift the trophy together. We have the vidoes and photos which we will keep for life and Im also delighted for Ange because he has come in for unnecessary abuse especially the last few weeks.

I do feel now is the perfect time to part ways however.

 

[harr1984]

I have reflected on it and you just can't sack him now.

Given the monkey off our back and all the negative PR thats now in the bin from the "they never win" "sexy" etc, we would just go back and open up wounds that would be "Spurs win and sack a manager after 17 years without one..............sexy"..........or the like.

I have serious doubt about his long term potential, that does not change, but thinking about the ridicule in the world of football should we sack him this summer..........it would outweigh the win

The pressure on the new manager would be immense too. Sacking a manager who wins the Europa League, whoever comes in would have to deliver a serious trophy in their first season otherwise you know what is going to be said rightly or wrongly.

I think it's more likely he will stay, what is clear is that another league season like this is not acceptable. If things were looking as they were last season in the league (personally I highly doubt but let's see) after say 2 months then he would get sacked and I don't think anyone could argue with that considering the previous seasons record in the league. And we have done fine with bringing in managers after a poor start, Harry 2 points from 8 games and also Conte after Nuno. The idea we would be wasting another season, I don't think would happen either way....

 

[fernadez]

Just listened to part of his post match interview and he said "People bang on about the 20 league defeats but theyre missing the point of what were trying to build here".

So lets say he has sacrificed the league to win the the cup. Does that justify 21 league defeats and finishing 17th? Arsenal got to 2 Semi finals and finished 2nd (with a load of injuries too). Villa went deep in 2 competitions and theyre league position hasnt suffered. Why is it acceptable for us to have such a bad league campaign and did it need to be that bad?

On top of that he says he plays different in cup football. Surely if the cup system works (results wise) but the league system doesnt, youd go with your cup system? Isnt football about winning games?

I just feel that now that is going to be a convenient excuse. I also dont agree with the comments regarding how bad a look it would be if we got rid of him now. Who cares what it looks like? Will look a lot worse next season if were struggling by November and have Mason in charge.

Over the moon weve won, had a bbq with 14 family members and watched us lift the trophy together. We have the vidoes and photos which we will keep for life and Im also delighted for Ange because he has come in for unnecessary abuse especially the last few weeks.

I do feel now is the perfect time to part ways however.

This is the question I posted in the other thread.

He says he concentrated on the cup, fine. But why then do you set up a team who can defend in one competition but then play gung ho basketball in what essentially is your day job. Makes no sense to me. Surely if you're getting results with a system you stick with it? If it was just personnel based that would be one thing. But we play a completely different and effective style.

 

[Gutter Boy]

All his interviews last night he kept say 'they' when talking about the future/next season, never 'we'.

 

[Grays_1890]

The pressure on the new manager would be immense too. Sacking a manager who wins the Europa League, whoever comes in would have to deliver a serious trophy in their first season otherwise you know what is going to be said rightly or wrongly.

I think it's more likely he will stay, what is clear is that another league season like this is not acceptable. If things were looking as they were last season in the league (personally I highly doubt but let's see) after say 2 months then he would get sacked and I don't think anyone could argue with that considering the previous seasons record in the league. And we have done fine with bringing in managers after a poor start, Harry 2 points from 8 games and also Conte after Nuno. The idea we would be wasting another season, I don't think would happen either way....

I think he gets the start of the season regardless of what any of us think, so I am not going to waste too much on it and TBH I wanna enjoy the cup. If he gets the start and is crap again they can get rid ALA Ramos and no one blinks. Get rid of him now we just replace a massive monkey on our backs with another IMO.

Anyway will leave that to others to debate now............I am off out for a treat day of a whacking great full english and a belly full of grog

 

[Mcfee]

Yes we’re still emotional but the reality is that only 2 years in, Ange, his coaching staff and this group of players have achieved something special and cut the noose that’s been around the club’s neck for nearly 2 decades. They’ve earned the chance to strengthen and build on it. After that we’ll deal with whatever happens.

 

[joeybloke]

Really sorry, I can not believe the percent of people wanting to keep him as our manager has risen... the players are poorly coached. I am trying not to be a Debbie Downer, but we look like we don't have a clue on the pitch, I just don't see how anyone can think that can be turned around by keeping him. Apologies, for being a knob, just surprised by some of what I am hearing and reading.

 

[FatBloke]

I think you need to consider that his options last night to win the trophy were hampered by an out of form sonny (who looked off the pace and unfit when he came on - Tel would have been the less emotional choice) who was returning from an injury, and the loss of our three most creative midfielders in Madders, Kulu and Bergvall. Looking at who was fit and the task at hand, he did what was needed to get a trophy. That's pragmatism l, which ironically is what most of the Ange out phalanx have been screaming for all season.


If you're a dyed in the wool "Ange out" man, then there's nothing I can say that will change how you feel. But if we were to finish 10-12 and win the champions league next season how would you feel?

Fair comment. I would have picked exactly the same starting XI, and I was happy to have Sonny, Tel and Odobert on the bench.

I was actually pro-Ange until about January, when it became patently clear (IMHO) that his system had been found out and Premier League teams had the tools to break it down. Not even just the top half teams either. And that's without counting the last couple of months where Ange had (rightly) prioritised the cups over the league.

We lost a lot of league games by being overly attacking. Then we won the Europa League with some real backs-to-the-wall super-defensive performances -- while Ange kept banging the drum about playing his way. Was it entertaining? Nope. Don't forget that we've beaten Frankfurt, Bodo/Glimt, and the worst Man U team in recent memory. And, apart from the first leg against a bare bones Bodo, none of them convincingly.

Last night, we basically shut up shop and offered absolutely nothing in midfield or attack. And while we were lacking Bergvall, Maddison and Kulu, don't forget that we had a midfield three of Bissouma, Bentancur and Sarr -- all of whom have been first choice at some point in the last two seasons.

I think a decent Man U side would have scored, and we'd have had nothing left to do anything about it.

Answering your question, of course I'd be ecstatic if we finished 12th and won the CL. I just can't see it happening. And if we did it through performances like last night's...

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Its not about just media reaction

The reputation around Spurs has weighed heavy on this club for 30+ years, anyone that says it hasn't is lying. That's dead in the water now.

Sacking a manager who has won a trophy in the summer after revives that reputation and weighs heavy on not only us but for who comes next. The messaging to the footballing world would be mixed at best

The message would be that finishing 4th bottom and getting beaten 20 times in a league season isn't acceptable.

 

[FatBloke]

I also think Ange deserves praise for dropping Son.

That was a big call. Son hasn't been himself (fair enough, everyone gets old) And Richy did well in what I saw as a Lamela role. A defensive winger using his physique to hold things up for us when we needed it.

I'd love to see the possession and average ball position stats for the 10 minutes before and after that sub. To me it seemed like a step change -- Son on for Richi (who'd run himself into the ground) and we just lost the ability to hold on to the ball.

 

[Muttley]

Just listened to part of his post match interview and he said "People bang on about the 20 league defeats but theyre missing the point of what were trying to build here".

So lets say he has sacrificed the league to win the the cup. Does that justify 21 league defeats and finishing 17th? Arsenal got to 2 Semi finals and finished 2nd (with a load of injuries too). Villa went deep in 2 competitions and theyre league position hasnt suffered. Why is it acceptable for us to have such a bad league campaign and did it need to be that bad?

On top of that he says he plays different in cup football. Surely if the cup system works (results wise) but the league system doesnt, youd go with your cup system? Isnt football about winning games?

I just feel that now that is going to be a convenient excuse. I also dont agree with the comments regarding how bad a look it would be if we got rid of him now. Who cares what it looks like? Will look a lot worse next season if were struggling by November and have Mason in charge.

Over the moon weve won, had a bbq with 14 family members and watched us lift the trophy together. We have the vidoes and photos which we will keep for life and Im also delighted for Ange because he has come in for unnecessary abuse especially the last few weeks.

I do feel now is the perfect time to part ways however.

It's a thoughtful post. Whilst we won yesterday, it wasn't exactly a great advert for football. We never controlled the game for any period of it. We never really had possession. What we did have was dogs of war in defence though and those guys deserved their clean sheet. The smash and grab element with Johnson did the rest. I'm guessing if they went 1-0 up, the game could have looked the reverse with us having the possession though. We won ugly and none of us care.

Is that enough to build upon so we can get us back to controlling league and CL games, passing the ball around and partaking in successful front foot, progressive football under Ange. That is what we need week in, week out next season. We haven't had it for the last two.

 

[monkeybarry]

The message would be that finishing 4th bottom and getting beaten 20 times in a league season isn't acceptable.

It is, for sure.
But the question is actually "how are you going to make it acceptable next season"?

If we decided as a club in Feb/March to focus on the EL for it's benefits, then it skews the data for the League. There did feel like a change around that time. A 10-12th place finish could be explained by the injuries. Injuries plus dismissing the League for a few months might explain 17th.
That said, as @fernadez said, it doesn't explain the stark contrast in tactics. Although the players holding back might explain it - the PL comes down to the tiny margins.

I suspect the decision has been made to move to a coach that is suitable for the PL and to allow Ange to get us, and him, the EL. He can be the first building block in this new phase - not dissimilar to how Martin Jol was.

 

[glasgowspur]

It's too early to be totally objective, emotions all over the place.

What I will say is that for the first time in as long as I can remember I was confident going into a big game.
OK it was only utd, but even 6 months ago I don't think we win that game.
Something has changed and I can only see that being down to ange.

Why was I confident, because the players looked like they believed. They truly had this, and they knew they did. Not just last night but since at least frankfurt.

There's been some speculation about ange and his use of us and they in his interviews last night.
Well I'm going to posit (that one's for @thfcsteff, I think you deserve it) a few things here.

"It's what we do mate."
Who is the we.
Tottenham Hotspur Football Club.
We play good football and win fudge all.

After Jose, nuno and conte ange coming in and playing "pragmatic" football would have went down like a lead balloon.
I always thought he was caught out with the results of his first 10 games. He didn't expect that IMHO. We rode it until the injuries decimated us.
If not, as the season progressed would he have modified his set up? With the fans on his side it would have been easy to say "we will play Angeball when we can, but sometimes we need to be more pragmatic."
How many of us would be moaning our fudging arses off if we had to watch what has been served up in the EL since the frankfurt game week in week out in the PL? A hell of a lot of us.
How many times have we been on wrong on of performances like last night. Loads.
How many times after those games have we been told that's what "big" clubs do. Loads.

Like the previous three managers he has been critical of the set up and culture in the club.
Ange hasn't whinged, hasn't thrown his toys out of the pram, he's got on with his fudging job.

Nobody, absolutely nobody could turn us around in two years, despite the win last night ange hasn't either, but whatever happens I think we are in a better place now than when he joined us.

There's also an awful lot to unpack, digest, analyse and make sense of. Most of which we the fans will never properly be privvy to, so as long as the club make a decision based on the right reasons I'm happy with whatever decision they make.

 

[Finney Is Back]

The only momentum we've got is towards the championship. He's been an absolute car crash of an appointment. If he survives this month, he'll be gone by the first international break in September and we'll be in interim land again.

The only thing that's changed is we'll phrase his compromise agreement more in the realms of mutually agreed/end of a journey etc.

Coming from the man that gave us the classic ‘serious relegation fears’ quote I take this post as a vote of confidence that keeping Ange is the right thing to do.

 

[harr1984]

It's too early to be totally objective, emotions all over the place.

What I will say is that for the first time in as long as I can remember I was confident going into a big game.
OK it was only utd, but even 6 months ago I don't think we win that game.
Something has changed and I can only see that being down to ange.

Why was I confident, because the players looked like they believed. They truly had this, and they knew they did. Not just last night but since at least frankfurt.

There's been some speculation about ange and his use of us and they in his interviews last night.
Well I'm going to posit (that one's for @thfcsteff, I think you deserve it) a few things here.

"It's what we do mate."
Who is the we.
Tottenham Hotspur Football Club.
We play good football and win fudge all.

After Jose, nuno and conte ange coming in and playing "pragmatic" football would have went down like a lead balloon.
I always thought he was caught out with the results of his first 10 games. He didn't expect that IMHO. We rode it until the injuries decimated us.
If not, as the season progressed would he have modified his set up? With the fans on his side it would have been easy to say "we will play Angeball when we can, but sometimes we need to be more pragmatic."
How many of us would be moaning our fudging arses off if we had to watch what has been served up in the EL since the frankfurt game week in week out in the PL? A hell of a lot of us.
How many times have we been on wrong on of performances like last night. Loads.
How many times after those games have we been told that's what "big" clubs do. Loads.

Like the previous three managers he has been critical of the set up and culture in the club.
Ange hasn't whinged, hasn't thrown his toys out of the pram, he's got on with his fudging job.

Nobody, absolutely nobody could turn us around in two years, despite the win last night ange hasn't either, but whatever happens I think we are in a better place now than when he joined us.

There's also an awful lot to unpack, digest, analyse and make sense of. Most of which we the fans will never properly be privvy to, so as long as the club make a decision based on the right reasons I'm happy with whatever decision they make.

Agree with all of this. And I'm comfortable with whatever Levy decides to do regarding Ange. He is someone who would not have any emotion involved in making the right decision when it comes to the club. At the end of the day us fans know very little beyond the obvious. Yes we all know our league record has been poor this season. What we don't know is what has gone on behind closed doors, what conversations have been had etc

The one man that does is Levy, and he more than any fan would not want a repeat of this seasons league form. So if he does decide to keep him on, there would have been good reason to do so and more than just 'He's won us the cup, I can't sack him'.....

 

[Finney Is Back]

It is, for sure.
But the question is actually "how are you going to make it acceptable next season"?

If we decided as a club in Feb/March to focus on the EL for it's benefits, then it skews the data for the League. There did feel like a change around that time. A 10-12th place finish could be explained by the injuries. Injuries plus dismissing the League for a few months might explain 17th.
That said, as @fernadez said, it doesn't explain the stark contrast in tactics. Although the players holding back might explain it - the PL comes down to the tiny margins.

I suspect the decision has been made to move to a coach that is suitable for the PL and to allow Ange to get us, and him, the EL. He can be the first building block in this new phase - not dissimilar to how Martin Jol was.

We played reasonably similar tactics in the wins over ManUtd and Brentford that all but secured our safety.