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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 67 37.0%
  • Out

    Votes: 114 63.0%

  • Total voters
    181
I'm sure from your 25 years of corporate experience in companies bigger than THFC, you seen plenty of older guys re-invent themselves. I have. My point is that they actually need to want to in the first place. That's the big question mark on Ange in my mind. Does he?

If he does then those tactics will evolve, whatever is the right formula in all our respective details. You are right in that we can short circuit that by just replacing him with someone already in that different zone.

I doubt this is anything to do with age or experience. That was just one hell of a stupid narrative that Ange used a few weeks ago to make himself above reproach about his performance in role. I called it out. I think you did as well from memory (???). He left himself open and made us think that he isn't changing anytime soon.

I think that will be the reason he falls on his sword. The leadership have given him time, just like they would / should someone with half his experience. He is not adapting quick enough to this new environment.

I think at Ange's age you know what you're hiring. He is who he is (mate LOL). I absolutelty agree that he appeared to have little interest in flipping his paradigm and becoming a pragmatist for three months. We had to have known that's who we were getting. I'd say that adaptations he did make (less galavanting from the FBs for example) were to us minimal changes yet to him and his system enormous. I think this is his truth and way.

I've said for sometime now that there are many culpable parts to this bricky season - some on him, some on injuries - but there needs to be a serious review of what has gone on above and around them (which I am absolutely sure has been happening in earnest and might already be close to conclusion - it would need to be).
 
I probably need to watch more. I've not seen better defensive attributes from Spence over Porro yet. In fact, I've seen Spence with some horrible defending at full-back. Way too casual.

I think they're both casual but it always seems to me that Spence is simply better at getting back into position...I'll do the same as it is an interesting sideline.
 
That idea excites me more than Silva, Frank or Iraola.

I always have an irrational beef with Parker.

He should have been a Spurs legend as a self confessed Spurs supporter. He took the money 3 times in his playing career over pulling on our colours. Then as a late career move he joined 'Arry and had a decent first season. He was then pretty average as a 32/33 year old in his second season. In fact in the second half of the second season he was pretty dead on his feet and easily passed around.

People talk as if Parker would be coming home if he became manager. Not for me. He was just another football mercenary.
 
It's ironic you talk about overhyping Bergvall, but label Maddison as 'transformative'. I like him, but he is nothing more than another typical Tottenham player, looks good or even really good when the going is good, but when the going is tough? Doesn't show up. We've had so many of them over the years and we've got a fair few of them now....
Because Maddison has shown an ability to transform a game and Bergvall has not.
 
I think at Ange's age you know what you're hiring. He is who he is (mate LOL). I absolutelty agree that he appeared to have little interest in flipping his paradigm and becoming a pragmatist for three months. We had to have known that's who we were getting. I'd say that adaptations he did make (less galavanting from the FBs for example) were to us minimal changes yet to him and his system enormous. I think this is his truth and way.

I've said for sometime now that there are many culpable parts to this bricky season - some on him, some on injuries - but there needs to be a serious review of what has gone on above and around them (which I am absolutely sure has been happening in earnest and might already be close to conclusion - it would need to be).

Yeah, a little further above I was in positive Ange mode (oh yes I was) and felt that so much of our defensive deficiencies were down to the risk and reward offside dependency. I've done nothing but focus on it in recent months and just feel that if he let defenders defend more naturally, this is the sort of tweak that could have remarkable consequences. It's way more subtle than the number 6 or full-back discussions. It also doesn't mean dropping offside either. It's about the time and place to use it.

Last season there was a long saga about our defending from set pieces and corners. The stats proved we had relegation form on it. It is not even an issue now. So whilst it took Ange (and his coaches) way too long to make tactical changes they got there in the end. I personally don't think Ange is too stubborn to make changes but they have to align under the picture he has in his head about front foot progressive football. No different from the full-back adaptation. The problem is, they always take too long and time is now not on his side.
 
I think we have to be careful not to overhype Bergvall. He's not been anywhere near as consistent as some have made out. He's made some bad errors too. He's only 18 and I think he's going to be immense for us; but ultimately Bergvall playing well doesn't result in a good spurs performance like a good Maddison performance does.

Maddison is the only transformative player in the squad. He rarely produces that level of performance these days, but that's reflected in how awful we've been.

Maddison is capable of lifting this team out of the bilge on his own. Other players in the squad will play well in a game without influencing the overall outcome. They're just cogs.
After what you've written about maddison on the last couple of pages I think it's you that has to be careful about over hyping a player.
 
Kulu has played plenty of those type of balls but that hasn't really been his role. He plays further forward or on the wing. Bergvall is already better than Maddison at the type of rol you're talking about. Maddison has never done it consistenly during his career, a few good games followed by a few terrible ones.
And that is the problem i have with him, talent he has but he has shown at all his clubs that he goes missing on many occasions.
 
I like the idea of Parker, certainly over Thomas Frank or Silva.
Burnley have been pretty good on the handful of times I’ve watched them this season.

In all honesty I know a few who think our squad is top 4-6 quality , I don’t personally. Can see us being a mid table ish side for a little while. Maybe use a lot of youth players. Donnelly , Moore etc.

So whoever comes in needs to get us performing above and beyond. Interesting summer and few seasons ahead. Finding a nice balance and style that keeps fans happy and some glimpses of getting back into higher reaches of the league
 
I disagree. I don't think Kulu has that quick switch long pass that Maddison has. I agree he can beat a man and put in a shorter through ball or cross, but that type of deeper Modric, Carrick quick switch to totally change the direction of play, I think Maddison is the only one capable.

The question is does deki dominate games? Does he grab a game by the scruff and dictate tempo? Answer for me a resounding "no" as evidenced by the fact that deki has been awesome this season but we have been utter dogsh*t. I.e. a great deki performance does not translate to a great spurs performance.

In those early 10 games when we looked good, Maddison was integral and dominated the games. When Maddison plays well, we play well. That's because then Maddison is in the mood/in form, he is capable of dominating and dictating a game in a way that deki simply isn't. Maddison's form at spurs has pretty much dictated our form.
Madison doesn't have that quick switch long pass either. Or if he does he never demonstrates it.
 
I like the idea of Parker, certainly over Thomas Frank or Silva.
Burnley have been pretty good on the handful of times I’ve watched them this season.

In all honesty I know a few who think our squad is top 4-6 quality , I don’t personally. Can see us being a mid table ish side for a little while. Maybe use a lot of youth players. Donnelly , Moore etc.

So whoever comes in needs to get us performing above and beyond. Interesting summer and few seasons ahead. Finding a nice balance and style that keeps fans happy and some glimpses of getting back into higher reaches of the league

Parker's football is not pleasant on the eye, neither he or Frank suit any ideal of Spurs football.

The next manager's goal for first season should simply be any kind of European football, no reason this side can't make 6th/7th.

Fans on the other hand ...
 
Let me preface this by saying, I currently and have (for more than 25 years) worked for much bigger companies than Spurs, in my experience this is how this plays out

- Team has a full year goal, in our case, highly likely to be primary goal of qualification for Europe via league, additional goal of good cup runs, stretch goal of cup win.
- Weekly/monthly/quarterly those goals are reviewed at a management level, the what (current result) the how (caveats, things like the injuries, the draw of cups/opponents) and outlook for next period (i.e. any corrective action) is looked at. Classic red/yellow/green stuff
- When things are red, which it would have been by Oct/Nov, you ask another set of questions, is this the continuation of a trend? (in our case, back end of last season), do we continue, change/adjust or completely reset? do we (at leadership level) still back the person who is accountable for the delivery of the goal (in this case Ange)

I'm 100% certain that two things happened
- Ange was asked about the situation/position and he would have said this was his plan, if it was needing the re-enforcements in January, or expectations of results once injured players were back, or some adjustment in coaching/tactics, we don't know, but we can safely assume it wasn't I'm going to barely avoid relegation but give you a good cup run.
- Without Ange, the senior leadership team would have had a meeting (or two or three) where the question would have been asked, do we stick, do we provide the manager additional tools or do we make a change now (to save season)

Somebody had to have advocated to stick with Ange, based on Levy's historical body of evidence, a decent guess is it wasn't him, that kind of leaves Munn as the only counter at high enough level for us to have stuck with it.

To your specific points

- Every high level business decision is a risk/reward decision, i.e. risks of season continuing to spiral, risk of new manager not being able to change things, reward of maybe new man does change things (look at Wolves). The baseline/status quo in this particular business is to make the change earlier.
- Your point about the raft of managers rejecting us is very typical fan answer (seriously not trying to be a dingdong). Let me be clear 100%, that literally is fudging Munn's job, his role is to 1/Have a succession plan for the current manager (regardless of current results), 2/Hire that manager when the time comes.

And that last point is why I'm saying (from an outsider point of view), a lot of the season failing appears to fall on Munn even more than Ange, specifically
- We made a decision to stick with Ange, in hindsight, it is a bad call. Likely at least supported by Munn
- We half assed the January window (Kinsky early, Danso & Tel late), Lange, Munn & Levy
- If we didn't/don't have a replacement lined up (in November, and now), again that is on Munn

So to summarize, it literally is someone's job in the club to have that set of managers lined up, they should have made the call to change (Dec/Jan for the latest) and they should have got that person. That person doesn't get to say "no one wants the job, or it's too hard to get the right replacement"

And yes, at this level, one mistake, one missed year of targets can cost you your job, that's why these people get paid well.
Great read and an interesting take - but there's still absolutely no basis in fact to your statement that we would be in a better place if Ange had been sacked in November.

What you have provided is a little insight to those who are not involved in the corporate world on a daily basis of the performance management methodology, and while I agree with you that there will be very specific goals set out, there's nothing to indicate anywhere that there was a more suitable manager available at that time, on which you could go all in on improving the performance of the team.

There have been several instance in recent times when we have had caretaker managers for a few games, because there was no manager willing or able to take up the role with 8 games or such to go, or we weren't ready with a manager list to appoint from.

Are you saying that each time we have installed Ryan Mason the director responsible should have been sacked? Because if you are then your version of how things are and the reality are a fair way apart.
 
I always have an irrational beef with Parker.

He should have been a Spurs legend as a self confessed Spurs supporter. He took the money 3 times in his playing career over pulling on our colours. Then as a late career move he joined 'Arry and had a decent first season. He was then pretty average as a 32/33 year old in his second season. In fact in the second half of the second season he was pretty dead on his feet and easily passed around.

People talk as if Parker would be coming home if he became manager. Not for me. He was just another football mercenary.

Honestly when I look at some of past players held up as "legends" by the fans I think we deserve all we get.
 
Parker's football is not pleasant on the eye, neither he or Frank suit any ideal of Spurs football.

The next manager's goal for first season should simply be any kind of European football, no reason this side can't make 6th/7th.

Fans on the other hand ...

I don't care what it looks like if we gets points.

I have no interest in being entertained, I just want to be sated.
 
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