Ange in or out?

[Finney Is Back]

Let me preface this by saying, I currently and have (for more than 25 years) worked for much bigger companies than Spurs, in my experience this is how this plays out

- Team has a full year goal, in our case, highly likely to be primary goal of qualification for Europe via league, additional goal of good cup runs, stretch goal of cup win.
- Weekly/monthly/quarterly those goals are reviewed at a management level, the what (current result) the how (caveats, things like the injuries, the draw of cups/opponents) and outlook for next period (i.e. any corrective action) is looked at. Classic red/yellow/green stuff
- When things are red, which it would have been by Oct/Nov, you ask another set of questions, is this the continuation of a trend? (in our case, back end of last season), do we continue, change/adjust or completely reset? do we (at leadership level) still back the person who is accountable for the delivery of the goal (in this case Ange)

I'm 100% certain that two things happened
- Ange was asked about the situation/position and he would have said this was his plan, if it was needing the re-enforcements in January, or expectations of results once injured players were back, or some adjustment in coaching/tactics, we don't know, but we can safely assume it wasn't I'm going to barely avoid relegation but give you a good cup run.
- Without Ange, the senior leadership team would have had a meeting (or two or three) where the question would have been asked, do we stick, do we provide the manager additional tools or do we make a change now (to save season)

Somebody had to have advocated to stick with Ange, based on Levy's historical body of evidence, a decent guess is it wasn't him, that kind of leaves Munn as the only counter at high enough level for us to have stuck with it.

To your specific points

- Every high level business decision is a risk/reward decision, i.e. risks of season continuing to spiral, risk of new manager not being able to change things, reward of maybe new man does change things (look at Wolves). The baseline/status quo in this particular business is to make the change earlier.
- Your point about the raft of managers rejecting us is very typical fan answer (seriously not trying to be a dingdong). Let me be clear 100%, that literally is fudging Munn's job, his role is to 1/Have a succession plan for the current manager (regardless of current results), 2/Hire that manager when the time comes.

And that last point is why I'm saying (from an outsider point of view), a lot of the season failing appears to fall on Munn even more than Ange, specifically
- We made a decision to stick with Ange, in hindsight, it is a bad call. Likely at least supported by Munn
- We half assed the January window (Kinsky early, Danso & Tel late), Lange, Munn & Levy
- If we didn't/don't have a replacement lined up (in November, and now), again that is on Munn

So to summarize, it literally is someone's job in the club to have that set of managers lined up, they should have made the call to change (Dec/Jan for the latest) and they should have got that person. That person doesn't get to say "no one wants the job, or it's too hard to get the right replacement"

And yes, at this level, one mistake, one missed year of targets can cost you your job, that's why these people get paid well.

I suspect that (as happens with all organisations) the initial goals made before the season started were altered many times along the way as different situations unfolded. When we were in the middle of our terrible injury problems and we exited the two domestic cups, my guess is that the goals were again altered with the main goal being to win the Europa League.

 

[Raziel]

I'm still a subscriber that if Ange could get past himself and address his defensive tactics he could still be a good Spurs manager. It is mostly to do with 3 things:

The offside line - Ange has massively over-rotated on his reliance on the "line" rather than let defenders follow runners, mark players and do the things that come naturally to them. He is making his defenders do unnatural acts with his obsession with the offside trap.

The number 6 - whether it's one player or two players, we need that midfield secured. Perhaps it's even a better team ethic and more taking responsibility. Any team can easily counter against us. We need to be stronger in the middle of the park.

The full-backs / wide players - just finding that balance between when the full-backs are narrow and the wide players are wide, and vice versa, would make a huge difference. We get exposed on the outside and crosses come in too easy against us.

Can you imagine Ange solving these 3 aspects and what that would propel us to with the players we have. I had my sympathies with prior managers for squad deficiencies. I don't with Ange. He's had very decent money thrown at this problem and has a fantastic squad. It is him that is not optimising the resources, and the reason he'll probably fall on his sword. If he could just admit that some of his go-to tactics aren't working in the PL, he could actually be really good. The big reason I'm Ange out is that I don't think he will adapt.

The challenge there is he's never done any of those things, it would be kind of like saying Lamela would have been WC if he used his two feet, probably technically true but was he going to pick up that skill at that point in his career?

I've said it before
- We need another attacking option/solution vs just overloads/positional fluidity, it's countered by sitting deep.
- We need a solution to the gaps the system leaves, if that is a DM that sits, one FB stays, a midfielder steps across to cover behind the FB, there needs to be a solution.
- We need in game management, the 100% bum rush creates more risk than reward and makes us too predictable, e.g. it's clear, teams know our FBs are going to be way out of position in the first 10 minutes of the game, so press/counter, goal. Manage the game, choose when to attack, when to sit, when you need to earn the momentum to go on attack, it also manages player fatigue.

Does it make sense to expect Ange is going to add all of that to his system after 29 years, or just go with someone who has already been doing that?

 

[Raziel]

I suspect that (as happens with all organisations) the initial goals made before the season started were altered many times along the way as different situations unfolded. When we were in the middle of our terrible injury problems and we exited the two domestic cups, my guess is that the goals were again altered with the main goal being to win the Europa League.

And that is likely true but it then becomes an all or nothing.

If you bet the house on EL win, if you don't, someone pays the price.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Disagree. Kulu can get on the ball from deep, progress the ball, and deliver a pass every bit as good as Maddison. The difference is that Kulu does it on a consistent basis and will always put in a shift.

I disagree. I don't think Kulu has that quick switch long pass that Maddison has. I agree he can beat a man and put in a shorter through ball or cross, but that type of deeper Modric, Carrick quick switch to totally change the direction of play, I think Maddison is the only one capable.

The question is does deki dominate games? Does he grab a game by the scruff and dictate tempo? Answer for me a resounding "no" as evidenced by the fact that deki has been awesome this season but we have been utter dogsh*t. I.e. a great deki performance does not translate to a great spurs performance.

In those early 10 games when we looked good, Maddison was integral and dominated the games. When Maddison plays well, we play well. That's because then Maddison is in the mood/in form, he is capable of dominating and dictating a game in a way that deki simply isn't. Maddison's form at spurs has pretty much dictated our form.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

I disagree. I don't think Kulu has that quick switch long pass that Maddison has. I agree he can beat a man and put in a shorter through ball or cross, but that type of deeper Modric, Carrick quick switch to totally change the direction of play, I think Maddison is the only one capable.

The question is does deki dominate games? Does he grab a game by the scruff and dictate tempo? Answer for me a resounding "no" as evidenced by the fact that deki has been awesome this season but we have been utter dogsh*t. I.e. a great deki performance does not translate to a great spurs performance.

In those early 10 games when we looked good, Maddison was integral and dominated the games. When Maddison plays well, we play well. That's because then Maddison is in the mood/in form, he is capable of dominating and dictating a game in a way that deki simply isn't. Maddison's form at spurs has pretty much dictated our form.

I’d love Maddison to pass quick
He hasn’t done that for 18 months and plays like zoolander

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

I’d love Maddison to pass quick
He hasn’t done that for 18 months and plays like zoolander

Yeah and our form has gone down the toilet with that, punctuated by the odd good performance where Maddison rediscovers his mo-jo. The thing is, so many players have regressed under Postecoglu. Why is it that Maddison was a revelation in his first 10 games, following on from a huge goal contribution season at Leicester, then suddenly goes down the toilet? Romero, world cup winner coveted by all sorts of clubs looks like a pub team player. VDV is another who looked a revelation in those first games but the other night got bullied and dominated by Wood, he brushed him off like he wasn't there. Udogie another that has gone horrifically backwards.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Yeah and our form has gone down the toilet with that, punctuated by the odd good performance where Maddison rediscovers his mo-jo. The thing is, so many players have regressed under Postecoglu. Why is it that Maddison was a revelation in his first 10 games, following on from a huge goal contribution season at Leicester, then suddenly goes down the toilet? Romero, world cup winner coveted by all sorts of clubs looks like a pub team player. VDV is another who looked a revelation in those first games but the other night got bullied and dominated by Wood, he brushed him off like he wasn't there. Udogie another that has gone horrifically backwards.

Was he a revelation or was it a team with confidence and playing as an unknown qty
VDV isn’t a very good defender. He is however incredibly quick. He is weak as tinkle in the air and not physically commanding at all
Udogie now looks match fit and his performances have progressed

 

[Benny_Lad]

Seems to be being widely reported over the past 24 hours. Munn allegedly to go too.

Lots of supposition, of course, but not hard to see it as true. If Ange does go, hopefully it’s with a trophy in the bag.

Ange Postecoglou heading for Tottenham exit

Exclusive: Australian manager likely to leave club regardless of whether they win Europa League and qualify for Champions League

www.telegraph.co.uk

Said when Munn joined he had zero pedigree in a big league so was very unlikely to succeed - like, who was he turning to in the big European leagues when we needed a manager. That’s on Levy isn’t it?

 

[DubSpur]

I disagree. I don't think Kulu has that quick switch long pass that Maddison has. I agree he can beat a man and put in a shorter through ball or cross, but that type of deeper Modric, Carrick quick switch to totally change the direction of play, I think Maddison is the only one capable.

The question is does deki dominate games? Does he grab a game by the scruff and dictate tempo? Answer for me a resounding "no" as evidenced by the fact that deki has been awesome this season but we have been utter dogsh*t. I.e. a great deki performance does not translate to a great spurs performance.

In those early 10 games when we looked good, Maddison was integral and dominated the games. When Maddison plays well, we play well. That's because then Maddison is in the mood/in form, he is capable of dominating and dictating a game in a way that deki simply isn't. Maddison's form at spurs has pretty much dictated our form.

Kulu has played plenty of those type of balls but that hasn't really been his role. He plays further forward or on the wing. Bergvall is already better than Maddison at the type of rol you're talking about. Maddison has never done it consistenly during his career, a few good games followed by a few terrible ones.

 

[Silly McSilly Face]

Kulu has played plenty of those type of balls but that hasn't really been his role. He plays further forward or on the wing. Bergvall is already better than Maddison at the type of rol you're talking about. Maddison has never done it consistenly during his career, a few good games followed by a few terrible ones.

I think we have to be careful not to overhype Bergvall. He's not been anywhere near as consistent as some have made out. He's made some bad errors too. He's only 18 and I think he's going to be immense for us; but ultimately Bergvall playing well doesn't result in a good spurs performance like a good Maddison performance does.

Maddison is the only transformative player in the squad. He rarely produces that level of performance these days, but that's reflected in how awful we've been.

Maddison is capable of lifting this team out of the bilge on his own. Other players in the squad will play well in a game without influencing the overall outcome. They're just cogs.

 

[thfcsteff]

Chelsea didn't want the PR of selling home grown player who captained the side to Spurs

Just like us with Kane, better to sell abroad.

Source?

 

[DubSpur]

I think we have to be careful not to overhype Bergvall. He's not been anywhere near as consistent as some have made out. He's made some bad errors too. He's only 18 and I think he's going to be immense for us; but ultimately Bergvall playing well doesn't result in a good spurs performance like a good Maddison performance does.

Maddison is the only transformative player in the squad. He rarely produces that level of performance these days, but that's reflected in how awful we've been.

Maddison is capable of lifting this team out of the bilge on his own. Other players in the squad will play well in a game without influencing the overall outcome. They're just cogs.

I don't know what you're seeing with Maddison but he's nowhere near in the same bracket as Modric and Carrick that you mentioned earlier and not a dominant midfielder. He's more likely to go hiding in a tough game than grab it by the scruff. Bergvall has made some bad mistakes, but his progressing of the ball is much more consistent than Maddisons this season.

 

[harr1984]

Yeah and our form has gone down the toilet with that, punctuated by the odd good performance where Maddison rediscovers his mo-jo. The thing is, so many players have regressed under Postecoglu. Why is it that Maddison was a revelation in his first 10 games, following on from a huge goal contribution season at Leicester, then suddenly goes down the toilet? Romero, world cup winner coveted by all sorts of clubs looks like a pub team player. VDV is another who looked a revelation in those first games but the other night got bullied and dominated by Wood, he brushed him off like he wasn't there. Udogie another that has gone horrifically backwards.

Maddison has been inconsistent his whole career. Romero has been rash Romero since he got here, did you not see him under Conte? VDV like many PL players look great when they first arrive because the opposition haven't figured out your weaknesses. Yes VDV has pace but as has been widely acknowledged he isn't a great defender and forwards have figured out ways to get the better of him that don't involve his pace. Udogie had an injury and looked poor for a while I agree , but have been signs in recent weeks he's getting back to his best. Also he is still young so unsurprising to see his form fluctuate.

The idea that every players poor form is down to Ange is nonsense, some of our players have stepped up just fine including the statistically more creative Kulu. Maddison along with the other two in the 'leadership group' should have been able to step up, but have proven themselves to be three of the most gutless and a big reason Ange will fall on his sword is the faith demonstrated with that group as leaders....

 

[harr1984]

I think we have to be careful not to overhype Bergvall. He's not been anywhere near as consistent as some have made out. He's made some bad errors too. He's only 18 and I think he's going to be immense for us; but ultimately Bergvall playing well doesn't result in a good spurs performance like a good Maddison performance does.

Maddison is the only transformative player in the squad. He rarely produces that level of performance these days, but that's reflected in how awful we've been.

Maddison is capable of lifting this team out of the bilge on his own. Other players in the squad will play well in a game without influencing the overall outcome. They're just cogs.

It's ironic you talk about overhyping Bergvall, but label Maddison as 'transformative'. I like him, but he is nothing more than another typical Tottenham player, looks good or even really good when the going is good, but when the going is tough? Doesn't show up. We've had so many of them over the years and we've got a fair few of them now....

 

[thfcsteff]

It doesn't require a left-footer. The fact that the FBs are basically attacking midfielders most of the time means that it reduces the need for them to be the same foot as the wing they are on. It would be much more important if they were asked to hug the side of the pitch instead of coming inside.

It's a discussion for sure. Spence has been excellent, that is clear. When Udogie is in form and healthy, he is our better option at LB IMO. I think there's a genuine argument for rotation between Spence and Porro as I think Spence is the better defender. I would always rather have natural footed defenders on their respective sides.

 

[thfcsteff]

In terms of quantity we had cover, the argument is over quality. Like I have said elsewhere- City have no CF cover or adequate cover for Rodri and that's the richest spendiest team n the country - it happens

Yet Pep did buy cover for Rodri a couple of years earlier, and promptly ground Phillips into the confidence dirt and pretty much broke him. He also had Alvarez and agreed to sell him. In each case City had quality cover yet Pep decided he didn't want them. Do you think if he'd demanded a CF in January he wouldn't have got one?

 

[Muttley]

The challenge there is he's never done any of those things, it would be kind of like saying Lamela would have been WC if he used his two feet, probably technically true but was he going to pick up that skill at that point in his career?

I've said it before
- We need another attacking option/solution vs just overloads/positional fluidity, it's countered by sitting deep.
- We need a solution to the gaps the system leaves, if that is a DM that sits, one FB stays, a midfielder steps across to cover behind the FB, there needs to be a solution.
- We need in game management, the 100% bum rush creates more risk than reward and makes us too predictable, e.g. it's clear, teams know our FBs are going to be way out of position in the first 10 minutes of the game, so press/counter, goal. Manage the game, choose when to attack, when to sit, when you need to earn the momentum to go on attack, it also manages player fatigue.

Does it make sense to expect Ange is going to add all of that to his system after 29 years, or just go with someone who has already been doing that?

I'm sure from your 25 years of corporate experience in companies bigger than THFC, you seen plenty of older guys re-invent themselves. I have. My point is that they actually need to want to in the first place. That's the big question mark on Ange in my mind. Does he?

If he does then those tactics will evolve, whatever is the right formula in all our respective details. You are right in that we can short circuit that by just replacing him with someone already in that different zone.

I doubt this is anything to do with age or experience. That was just one hell of a stupid narrative that Ange used a few weeks ago to make himself above reproach about his performance in role. I called it out. I think you did as well from memory (???). He left himself open and made us think that he isn't changing anytime soon.

I think that will be the reason he falls on his sword. The leadership have given him time, just like they would / should someone with half his experience. He is not adapting quick enough to this new environment.

 

[Daveeeeeeeed]

Scott Parker 100%

 

[Muttley]

It's a discussion for sure. Spence has been excellent, that is clear. When Udogie is in form and healthy, he is our better option at LB IMO. I think there's a genuine argument for rotation between Spence and Porro as I think Spence is the better defender. I would always rather have natural footed defenders on their respective sides.

I probably need to watch more. I've not seen better defensive attributes from Spence over Porro yet. In fact, I've seen Spence with some horrible defending at full-back. Way too casual.

 

[Mikey10]

Scott Parker 100%

That idea excites me more than Silva, Frank or Iraola.