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Ange in or out?

Ange in or out?

  • In

    Votes: 67 37.0%
  • Out

    Votes: 114 63.0%

  • Total voters
    181
Vic is a better GK than Raya, just like VDV is a better CB than Todibo, just like Bergvall will be a better midfielder than whoever was the "expensive alternative" that fans wanted, just like Deki (Juve reject) is the closest thing we have a elite level player in squad. Fan judgement of when the club is being cheap vs. actually buying the right player is so far off it's useless. (unless, see point below, you want to go back 15 years)
By your very own logic you've just said that the judgement of players by fans is useless. Do you include yourself in that?

You're being quite aggressive in the way you are wording things, and it's pretty unnecessary. You are also stating your opinion as fact which it isn't.
 
Yes but just because other clubs have it too doesn't make our situation right does it?

I think the fact that other clubs are often demonstratably short in a couple of areas shows that it's not really a valid excuse or a unique failing of the current setup here tbqh - if City's squad feels the effect of a few injuries how can we expect not to? Squads are rarely perfect or well stocked against every eventuality and part of being a manager is finding solutions sometimes.
 
Yes, but like I said, the amount of noise re VDV (as example) being the cheap option (and Todibo didn't have the complication of going somewhere better) just gets forgotten the moment we actually saw VDV play. And then we resort to cherry picking to prove a point.

Danso, Kinsky, Solanke, Wilson, Bergvall, Gray, Yang, Johnson, Maddison, Dragusin, Vicario, VDV, Udogie, Vuskovich, Solomon, Spence, Veliz, Porro, Richarlison, Bissouma, Bentancur, Sarr, Deki

The hit to miss ration on the last 3 seasons is statistically off the chart, are there gaps? yes, have we indexed too heavily to youth? probably, but in a period where squad refresh (volume) was the biggest need, it's a great start (yes, if we don't build from here, it's wasted)
This list is nowhere near as good as you think it is. No bonafide successes but yes a bunch of young potentials so who knows where they will end up and a bag of failures and not good enoughs. Probably fairly standard in terms of hit or miss for most clubs tbh.
 
I think the fact that other clubs are often demonstratably short in a couple of areas shows that it's not really a valid excuse or a unique failing of the current setup here tbqh - if City's squad feels the effect of a fee injuries how can we expect not to? squads are rarely perfect or well stocked against every eventuality and part of being a manager is finding solutions sometimes.
A good manager finds a solution, a great one finds success with their solutions. Ange has failed at doing both and I will once again say he knew what he was getting into with the choices he made. Remember Ange made great pains to take ownership of the transfer business. So that missing CB he knew that was the case before the season started, he also knew he didn't have a backup LB he was happy to use. So again no real allowances made for me.

If Ange has distanced himself from the signings I'd have a lot more time for that line of argument, because like others before him the Spurs hierarchy would have screwed him over but this time the manager claimed ownership of the whole process.
 
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We started the season with 2 senior keepers, 4 cb’s, 2 lb’s, 2 rb’s.

The squad was there. It’s not been used well.

How many games has the backup LB we had on match day one actually played?
 
Again, I'm not levy out, I just want accountability and acceptance of mistakes.

I think the appointment of the new CEO is effectively "Levy out" of the football side. It's the Chairman's recognition that he can't be a full-time property developer and also run the footballing side of things. And I do believe that any half-decent manager would look at our squad and think he could do much, much better than Ange with those players at his disposal.
We have appointed people in this sort of role before, Paratici, Baldini, even Munn. All have had a mandate to take on the footballing side of the club and take it forward.

It's possible that this is what you say, and I hope it is because then we can look to reinvent ourselves, but I will not be holding my breath.
 
Are we? this is one of those weird media/fan narratives that people seem to believe that I'm not sure I buy
100% agree. If (insert tabloid football website) says we were in for a player and didn't get them, soon after the report it seems to be set in stone as being a fact that we were trying to sign them and failed, and then people wheel the story out as ongoing evidence of our ineptitude at signing targets.

Shame that they forget the Odoberts of this world where the first you know he's been announced on the official site.
 
We have appointed people in this sort of role before, Paratici, Baldini, even Munn. All have had a mandate to take on the footballing side of the club and take it forward.

It's possible that this is what you say, and I hope it is because then we can look to reinvent ourselves, but I will not be holding my breath.
We haven't. Paratici, and Baldini were DoFs reporting to Levy. The structure is totally different now. We have Munn over Lange.
What exactly the new CEOs responsibility is still unclear. Is he over the commercial side of things only or does Munn (or whoever his replacement will be) report into the new CEO?
 
I think the fact that other clubs are often demonstratably short in a couple of areas shows that it's not really a valid excuse or a unique failing of the current setup here tbqh - if City's squad feels the effect of a few injuries how can we expect not to? Squads are rarely perfect or well stocked against every eventuality and part of being a manager is finding solutions sometimes.
Inagree and
Vic is a better GK than Raya, just like VDV is a better CB than Todibo, just like Bergvall will be a better midfielder than whoever was the "expensive alternative" that fans wanted, just like Deki (Juve reject) is the closest thing we have a elite level player in squad. Fan judgement of when the club is being cheap vs. actually buying the right player is so far off it's useless. (unless, see point below, you want to go back 15 years)

You are doing the standard Spurs fan brick and cherry picking stuff from different eras, we didn't have £300m to spend with Jose (Covid ring a bell? the club was posting losses of >£150m), we didn't have it when we had a 33K seater stadium. Spurs pre BMJ, pre Poch, post stadium and covid are really three entirely different clubs/prospects/finances.

Emerson Royal was a more expensive signing than Kyle Walker and Trippier together and doubled, so really not understanding the point you are making.

Tell me what your plan would be, besides some vague accountability requirement while defending the worse manager in our PL era?
Missed this post and there's a lot here, so bear with me.

Vicario and Raya have strengths and weaknesses, but I would say that in terms of the confidence he instills in his defence, Raya is the calmer and less likely to flap. Perception only, I watch far more Spurs than Goons, obviously.

The rest of your X is better than Y is kinda moot as there's no direct comparison (todibo plays in a far different league and You don't give a player for Bergvall to be compared with).

I would encourage you to re read my posts as you will not find me suggesting we should have spent £300m during COVID, sarcasm noted and ignored though.

What I did infer in less words than now, is that if you hire Mourinho then you are appointing one of the best in the game and if he asks you for a player then it's probably a good idea to get that player, not sign a cheaper alternative as happened with Gedson Vs Fernandes. man Utd paid a structured £67m over 5 years based on achievement for Bruno Fernandes which is exactly the kind of deal that Levy is capable of. We got that so, so wrong, and that was the way a lot across the last ten years.

Emerson Royal being more expensive, is factually flawed as city paid £45m for Kyle Walker and Trippier cost Atletico £20m. That's what they were worth, and Emerson Royal cost £20m. Price aside though he was far worse than either of the former players of ours and I would say probably less suited even than someone like Walker-Peters to our club. My point I was making was that the standard of our squad dropped off drastically, not that we were not spending.

What would my plan be?

right now I would review the performance of Munn, Lange, and Ange at the end of the season. I would ignore the noise from the fan base and be objective. Would any of them survive? I'm not in possession of the metrics they were hired on so it's hard to say exactly, but it's not difficult to see that Ange is going to have a tough time justifying what has happened.

If the sole metric was win a trophy and we win the Europa League then he stays, but his new metric is win 8 of the first 10 games of the new season or cheerio.

I would also talk to the senior players and get a feeling for how they felt about the approach, the way they were used and their intentions. Romero has always had a tingle if the mercenary about him but Madison, Kulu, Son and Bentancur will all have their views and know how the rest of the squad perceive the manager.

For Lange and Munn different benchmarks apply. Have we recruited well? Yes if you look at the long term value of the players signed. Again though if the metric is signing young players who can make an impact now, then we have to say that it's a mixed bag.

Bergvall is the sole player who has actually established himself as a first team player, the others (Gray, Odobert, Dragusin, Tel) I would say have yet to become first team picks, although I thought Tel was our best player last night, so bodes well.

All this above is why when I'm asked if I back the manager, it's not an unqualified yes or an unqualified no. There's no other industry like sport, emotion plays such a part and the entitlement of fans to want to have a say in something that the vast majority don't financially contribute to is unique more or less.

Were I in possession of all the facts I would make a decision on Ange, but without all the info I don't feel I can be objective, so I go with my heart. And my heart says there's still something in there. Don't know why but it doesm I'm in an increasingly small minority but I want him to succeed, and I don't want to have to watch a reset being fumbled like the last time we did this 24 months ago.

I think that is my longest ever GG post and I once wrote a song over in random called I'm a randomite which was 20 verses long. 😁
 
Statistically we are worse this season than 76/77. It's just there are other teams that are even worse. Infact this season result wise in the league is the worst in our entire history.

So no not hyperbole.

Yeah. It is. Unless stats are all that count. That 76/77 side (dumped on Burky by that plonker Neil) was awful. The side GF side of 96 was awful. The Gross side of 97 was awful. The side of 93, awful. We have had sides which were far worse over 90 mins consistently.

Perhaps what we have never seen in a single season is a side which makes so many key individual defensive mistakes and which has consistently been so naive in defensive transitions. But the actual football? Oh we've played far far worse in some other seasons...
 
Yeah. It is. Unless stats are all that count. That 76/77 side (dumped on Burky by that plonker Neil) was awful. The side GF side of 96 was awful. The Gross side of 97 was awful. The side of 93, awful. We have had sides which were far worse over 90 mins consistently.

Perhaps what we have never seen in a single season is a side which makes so many key individual defensive mistakes and which has consistently been so naive in defensive transitions. But the actual football? Oh we've played far far worse in some other seasons...

We sure have.
 
Yeah. It is. Unless stats are all that count. That 76/77 side (dumped on Burky by that plonker Neil) was awful. The side GF side of 96 was awful. The Gross side of 97 was awful. The side of 93, awful. We have had sides which were far worse over 90 mins consistently.

Perhaps what we have never seen in a single season is a side which makes so many key individual defensive mistakes and which has consistently been so naive in defensive transitions. But the actual football? Oh we've played far far worse in some other seasons...

I think you've actually argued against your own point here - those sides were awful (thankfully I'm not as old as you so will have to take your word on it ;) ) but our current team isn't- so what does that tell you about the managerial performance this season? A comparable outcome to our worst ever seasons but with a much better team...
 
We started the season with 2 senior keepers, 4 cb’s, 2 lb’s, 2 rb’s.

The squad was there. It’s not been used well.

How many games has the backup LB we had on match day one actually played?
Who do you think is the back up left back?
Yours gonna say the player we and no other club want I think…
The club made brave, but stupid decisions on numbers in the summer and it’s bitten them bad .. almost zombie levels
 
A good manager finds a solution, a great one finds success with their solutions. Ange has failed at doing both and I will once again say he knew what he was getting into with the choices he made. Remember Ange made great pains to take ownership of the transfer business. So that missing CB he knew that was the case before the season started, he also knew he didn't have a backup LB he was happy to use. So again no real allowances made for me.

If Ange has distanced himself from the signings I'd have a lot more time for that line of argument, because like others before him the Spurs hierarchy would have screwed him over but this time the manager claimed ownership of the whole process.
Ange has been clear that he is part of that process and I respect him for it
It was fudging naive to allow the squad to be made up with so many weaknesses in quality let alone quality but he hasn’t shied away from that. Other managers may well have just like Conte is now doing at Napoli
 
No I dont. Ramos got us playing very well against teams who were, on paper, superior to us. In particular, 5-1 vs Arsenal, 2-1 vs Chelsea in the final, leading the peak United until almost the last kick of the game. We attacked AND defended well in many games. Sure it went wrong in the end partly due to the disgraceful summer transfer window but he achieved significant results along the way. Even if Ange wins the Europa League, he won't have beaten the quality of opposition that Ramos did on the way to the Carling Cup. I genuinely loved the Ramos period up to the Carling Cup win. During that time he was a far superior manager to Ange IMHO.

Ramos was totally and utterly shafted by several things, including losing Keane and Berba in a summer, Commoli being unable to sign a decent replacement (Frazier Campbell FFS), Poyet, and his own abrupt business concerns. I agree that his Carling Cup side was fun and played well.
 
I don't think there are big holes in the squad, I think we have a starting XI of varying quality and good* cover for most if not all positions.

* relative to what would be seen as an average position in the table for us, eg 6th

Where's our creative midfielder when Maddison is injured? Where's our left-sided
FB cover? Where's our Johnson backup/alternate? We still have some work.
 
I think the fact that other clubs are often demonstratably short in a couple of areas shows that it's not really a valid excuse or a unique failing of the current setup here tbqh - if City's squad feels the effect of a few injuries how can we expect not to? Squads are rarely perfect or well stocked against every eventuality and part of being a manager is finding solutions sometimes.

Emirates Marketing Project then went and spent 170 million in the January window. Still biffed up their season by their standards. Injuries matter. There are always more parts to a problem than one entity.
 
I think you've actually argued against your own point here - those sides were awful (thankfully I'm not as old as you so will have to take your word on it ;) ) but our current team isn't- so what does that tell you about the managerial performance this season? A comparable outcome to our worst ever seasons but with a much better team...
Old man badge accepted 😍...argued against myself? Not at all. I am saying that the standard of football was far worse in those years. I think a lot of people banging on about 'worst' are stat driven. I get it. There is no defending the horrific amount of losses. But I have enjoyed the football this season a lot more than the seasons I noted.
 
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